Catholic FAQ


Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Eastern Catholicism
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #61  
Old Mar 15, '12, 5:08 pm
Schism hater Schism hater is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: March 12, 2012
Posts: 399
Religion: Orthodox
Default Re: Communing in an Orthodox church

Quote:
Originally Posted by John of Patmos View Post
I too would suggest the EC DL. Pray for unity. It also makes me sad that we Catholics cannot recieve in an Orthodox Church. But I believe this will happen soon enough.
I have attended EC DLs. The thing is, for me it's not just about, or even primarily about, the Liturgy. I really don't have a problem with the western liturgy, except for the Filioque and the withholding of the chalice from the laity, and of course the hymnology in some of the NO masses is pretty horrible. Since the passage of that recent Canon (I never remember the number) it's been made clear that Eastern Catholics must hold to the same post-schism western dogmas that western Catholics must, such as papal infallibility, and I simply am not able to accept those as dogmas.
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old Mar 15, '12, 6:06 pm
John of Patmos's Avatar
John of Patmos John of Patmos is offline
Regular Member
Prayer Warrior
 
Join Date: November 13, 2011
Posts: 566
Religion: Orthodox Christian
Default Re: Communing in an Orthodox church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schism hater View Post
I have attended EC DLs. The thing is, for me it's not just about, or even primarily about, the Liturgy. I really don't have a problem with the western liturgy, except for the Filioque and the withholding of the chalice from the laity, and of course the hymnology in some of the NO masses is pretty horrible. Since the passage of that recent Canon (I never remember the number) it's been made clear that Eastern Catholics must hold to the same post-schism western dogmas that western Catholics must, such as papal infallibility, and I simply am not able to accept those as dogmas.
May I ask, why not?
I mean, it doesn't really effect ECs to accept Infallibility...
Plus, your Roman aren't you?
There's plenty of Patristic quotes about it, supporting it in fact...
And really, there's plenty of other things that prove the Catholics right
__________________
Κύριε Ιησού Χριστέ ελέησόν με

Orthodox Christian as of November 2013. Previous posts may not reflect this.
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old Mar 15, '12, 6:55 pm
Peter J's Avatar
Peter J Peter J is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: April 7, 2008
Posts: 9,505
Religion: Melkite (Melkite Catholic)
Post Re: Communing in an Orthodox church

Quote:
Originally Posted by John of Patmos View Post
I mean, it doesn't really effect ECs to accept Infallibility...
Huh. I guess someone forgot to tell the pope that.

__________________
- Peter Jericho

"Pastoral activity in the Catholic Church, Latin as well as Eastern, no longer aims at having the faithful of one Church pass over to the other"
- the Balamand Statement
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old Mar 15, '12, 8:05 pm
MariaGoretti88 MariaGoretti88 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 24, 2011
Posts: 112
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: Communing in an Orthodox church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter J View Post
Agreed. And, going a step further, this is why it bothers me that I sometimes hear fellow Catholics speak as though doctrinal agreement isn't needed for sharing the eucharist.
I know it's absurd!! The Holy Apostles, the Martyrs, Confessors, and Virgins would be shaking their heads left and right with people dropping orthodoxy but still claiming to be in communion with the Church. Not that I do not want them to be in communion, but I just hope that we all understand what that means, and common doctrine is definitely part of that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanBlack View Post
Then you disagree with the teachings of the Catholic Church herself, since she permits the Orthodox to receive, and allows her own faithful to commune in an Orthodox Church (when access to a Catholic celebration of the Eucharist is not possible) where permission from the Orthodox is given.
I'm not disagreeing with her. Before you try to throw Canon Law at me, consider this fact: Those who reject any Catholic dogma (or any doctrine) is not in the Church and if one is not in the Church, one cannot receive the Sacraments. This goes against the First Epistle to the Corinthians.

Don't even try to tell me that the Immaculate Conception of Our Lady and her glorious Assumption into Heaven, and accepting Papal Infallibility are suggestions according to the Church. What is the point of someone receiving our Sacraments if someone doesn't agree with these doctrines? Either that person is undermining our Faith (pshh...whateva, hogwash who cares about those doctrines...), or he's undermining the Sacrament (somehow I am supposed to receive Grace from the Sacraments of a Church whose doctrines I believe to be false...hmmm...).

Quote:
Originally Posted by John of Patmos View Post
It still is Communion...(Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity).
But I think I know what you mean.
Lol, yes It is. But it's not "commUNal" emphasis on the UN in unity lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian View Post
Yes let us reduce the efforts made by the last few Popes to reduce the bridge between us and the Orthodox to just them playing at been 'politically correct.' Along the way we can confirm the worst fears of the Orthodox regarding ourselves and rank up the tensions between us more again. That's a win-win scenario for members of the apostolic Churchs eveywhere....
I'm sorry, but when it comes to dogma that is binding on all of us who even want to have a chance at saving our souls, there is no compromise. If I have to believe, then so do they. Otherwise, it's a double-standard. I understand that this is uncomfortable for a lot of Orthodox and Catholics (it's excruciating that we cannot fully agree, same with Protestants and other non-believers), but we cannot compromise the teachings of Christ for the sake of having them in.

That's what a lot of pastors in my rite of the Church struggle with: They want the butts in seats, so they don't say what needs to be said all the time (although I feel like more butts would be in seats if we got more "cold, hard" Truth (even though it is neither cold nor hard to the believer as King David exclaims in Psalm CXI, 1 "Blessed is the man that feareth the Lord: he shall delight exceedingly in His commandments.").

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fone Bone 2001 View Post
No, he doesn't disagree with the Catholic Church on this matter. Orthodox are permitted to receive Holy Communion at Catholic Liturgies precisely because, in the eyes of the Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church has fully orthodox beliefs.

That's why they're not considered to be in heresy. This barrier between us is schism alone.
The Orthodox Church may not be heretical on paper, but according to the Catholic Church's definition (heretics accept some revealed Truth but not all), the Orthodox Church is technically in heresy. Schismatics according to the same source refuse to submit to the authority of the Holy Father, but accept all revealed Truths.

Unless someone wants to explain to me why I (and all other Catholics here) would be refused the Sacraments if I refused to believe in the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin, but why our Orthodox brothers and sisters wouldn't be...

Now do see the problem I'm having? As for the Canon Law, I have my own explanations for that to keep me freaking out about worrying about non-Catholics worthily receiving our Sacraments.
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old Mar 15, '12, 8:26 pm
Peter J's Avatar
Peter J Peter J is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: April 7, 2008
Posts: 9,505
Religion: Melkite (Melkite Catholic)
Post Re: Communing in an Orthodox church

Quote:
Originally Posted by MariaGoretti88 View Post
I understand that this is uncomfortable for a lot of Orthodox and Catholics
I would say rather that it's uncomfortable for a lot of Catholics and Anglicans -- the Orthodox are usually the first to speak out against intercommunion-without-doctrinal-agreement.
__________________
- Peter Jericho

"Pastoral activity in the Catholic Church, Latin as well as Eastern, no longer aims at having the faithful of one Church pass over to the other"
- the Balamand Statement
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old Mar 15, '12, 10:27 pm
RyanBlack's Avatar
RyanBlack RyanBlack is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2010
Posts: 1,920
Religion: Ruthenian Catholic
Default Re: Communing in an Orthodox church

Quote:
Originally Posted by MariaGoretti88 View Post
I know it's absurd!! The Holy Apostles, the Martyrs, Confessors, and Virgins would be shaking their heads left and right with people dropping orthodoxy but still claiming to be in communion with the Church. Not that I do not want them to be in communion, but I just hope that we all understand what that means, and common doctrine is definitely part of that.



I'm not disagreeing with her. Before you try to throw Canon Law at me, consider this fact: Those who reject any Catholic dogma (or any doctrine) is not in the Church and if one is not in the Church, one cannot receive the Sacraments. This goes against the First Epistle to the Corinthians.

Don't even try to tell me that the Immaculate Conception of Our Lady and her glorious Assumption into Heaven, and accepting Papal Infallibility are suggestions according to the Church. What is the point of someone receiving our Sacraments if someone doesn't agree with these doctrines? Either that person is undermining our Faith (pshh...whateva, hogwash who cares about those doctrines...), or he's undermining the Sacrament (somehow I am supposed to receive Grace from the Sacraments of a Church whose doctrines I believe to be false...hmmm...).



Lol, yes It is. But it's not "commUNal" emphasis on the UN in unity lol.



I'm sorry, but when it comes to dogma that is binding on all of us who even want to have a chance at saving our souls, there is no compromise. If I have to believe, then so do they. Otherwise, it's a double-standard. I understand that this is uncomfortable for a lot of Orthodox and Catholics (it's excruciating that we cannot fully agree, same with Protestants and other non-believers), but we cannot compromise the teachings of Christ for the sake of having them in.

That's what a lot of pastors in my rite of the Church struggle with: They want the butts in seats, so they don't say what needs to be said all the time (although I feel like more butts would be in seats if we got more "cold, hard" Truth (even though it is neither cold nor hard to the believer as King David exclaims in Psalm CXI, 1 "Blessed is the man that feareth the Lord: he shall delight exceedingly in His commandments.").



The Orthodox Church may not be heretical on paper, but according to the Catholic Church's definition (heretics accept some revealed Truth but not all), the Orthodox Church is technically in heresy. Schismatics according to the same source refuse to submit to the authority of the Holy Father, but accept all revealed Truths.

Unless someone wants to explain to me why I (and all other Catholics here) would be refused the Sacraments if I refused to believe in the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin, but why our Orthodox brothers and sisters wouldn't be...

Now do see the problem I'm having? As for the Canon Law, I have my own explanations for that to keep me freaking out about worrying about non-Catholics worthily receiving our Sacraments.
By your own standards, you should cease receiving communion, because what you are saying concerning the Orthdodox is in opposed to what is taught in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. BTW, it is against the rules of the Forum to refer to the Orthodox either as heretics or schismatics.
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old Mar 15, '12, 10:41 pm
Pork Roll Pork Roll is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: December 17, 2010
Posts: 768
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Communing in an Orthodox church

Quote:
Eastern Catholics must hold to the same post-schism western dogmas that western Catholics must, such as papal infallibility, and I simply am not able to accept those as dogmas.
You should follow you conscience even if it is wrong. Make sure you do your homework and read both sides of the argument and see who's more reasonable.
Quote:
Doesnt the Catholic church allow Orthodox Christians to commune in its churches?
My catholic church doesn't allow orthodox to commune. However, this is done out of respect for the Orthodox who are not supposed to.
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old Mar 15, '12, 10:47 pm
MariaGoretti88 MariaGoretti88 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 24, 2011
Posts: 112
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: Communing in an Orthodox church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter J View Post
I would say rather that it's uncomfortable for a lot of Catholics and Anglicans -- the Orthodox are usually the first to speak out against intercommunion-without-doctrinal-agreement.
They are. I just don't understand why it's only a small remnant of Catholics that seems to be protective of our Sacraments and dogmas. I don't know, but I will continue to pray about this because I'm always left walking in circles lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanBlack View Post
By your own standards, you should cease receiving communion, because what you are saying concerning the Orthdodox is in opposed to what is taught in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. BTW, it is against the rules of the Forum to refer to the Orthodox either as heretics or schismatics.
You're using the Protestant tactic of taking one thing out of context to try to refute an entire claim without holding it up to other things of the same source. They do that with verses of Scripture without considering other parts of the Holy Word, whereas you are taking one part of one official document without holding it up to other documents that are also official.

The Catholic Church by definition cannot contradict itself and you shouldn't speak that way of Holy Mother Church. It is not for you to decide what doctrines of hers are and are not important.

Again, if you don't accept her doctrines then there's no point in running to her for help if you're dying (Sacrament of Extreme Unction) unless you are ready to submit to her authority (confess disbelief and convert before expiring).
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old Mar 15, '12, 11:08 pm
Vico's Avatar
Vico Vico is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 27, 2008
Posts: 6,514
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Communing in an Orthodox church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul theApostle View Post
Doesnt the Catholic church allow Orthodox Christians to commune in its churches?

And arent Catholics allowed to commune at Orthodox churches in some circumstances?
A. Catholics are to avoid indifferentism. That means to hold and act in accord with the belief that the Catholic Church has the fullness of the Christian faith. The other non Catholic churches are known as either particular churches (that have Apostolic succession) and ecclesial communities (those without Apostolic succession).

CCEO Canon 671
1. Catholic ministers licitly administer the sacraments only to Catholic Christian faithful, who, likewise, licitly receive the sacraments only from Catholic ministers.
2. If necessity requires it or genuine spiritual advantage suggests it and provided that the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided, it is permitted for Catholic Christian faithful, for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister, to receive the sacraments of penance, the Eucharist and anointing of the sick from non-Catholic ministers, in whose Churches these sacraments are valid.
3. Likewise Catholic ministers licitly administer the sacraments of penance, the Eucharist and anointing of the sick to Christian faithful of Eastern Churches, who do not have full communion with the Catholic Church, if they ask for them on their own and are properly disposed. This holds also for the Christian faithful of other Churches, who according to the judgment of the Apostolic See, are in the same condition as the Eastern Churches as far as the sacraments are concerned.
4. If there is a danger of death or another matter of serious necessity in the judgment of the eparchial bishop, the synod of bishops of the patriarchal Church or the council of hierarchs, Catholic ministers licitly administer the same sacraments also to other Christians not having full communion with the Catholic Church, who cannot approach the ministers of their own ecclesial communities and who request them on their own, provided they manifest a faith consonant with that of the Catholic Church concerning these sacraments and are rightly disposed.
5. For the cases in 2, 3 and 4, norms of particular law are to be enacted only after consultation with at least the local competent authority ofthe non-Catholic Church or ecclesial community concerned.



__________________

Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old Mar 15, '12, 11:08 pm
5Loaves 5Loaves is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: August 9, 2009
Posts: 3,103
Religion: Catholic: Russian Greek Catholic, & Latin Church catechist
Default Re: Communing in an Orthodox church

Quote:
Originally Posted by MariaGoretti88 View Post
The Orthodox Church may not be heretical on paper, but according to the Catholic Church's definition (heretics accept some revealed Truth but not all), the Orthodox Church is technically in heresy. Schismatics according to the same source refuse to submit to the authority of the Holy Father, but accept all revealed Truths.
Before things go any further along these lines please review the Sticky: Important Forum Information #4 at the top of the EC Section "On the use of the words uniate, schismatic, and heretic".
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old Mar 15, '12, 11:09 pm
Vico's Avatar
Vico Vico is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 27, 2008
Posts: 6,514
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Communing in an Orthodox church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul theApostle View Post
Doesnt the Catholic church allow Orthodox Christians to commune in its churches?

And arent Catholics allowed to commune at Orthodox churches in some circumstances?
B. The Vatican has addressed some inter-ecclesial issues in the 1993 DIRECTORY FOR THE APPLICATION OF PRINCIPLES AND NORMS ON ECUMENISM:

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/po...ectory_en.html

Prayer in Common

108. Where appropriate, Catholics should be encouraged, in accordance with the Church's norms, to join in prayer with Christians of other Churches and ecclesial Communities. Such prayers in common are certainly a very effective means of petitioning for the grace of unity, and they are a genuine expression of the ties which still bind Catholics to these other Christians. [119] Shared prayer is in itself a way to spiritual reconciliation.
...
111 d) When services are arranged between Catholics and those of an Eastern Church, particular attention should be given to the liturgical discipline of each Church, in accordance with n. 115 below.
...
115. Since the celebration of the Eucharist on the Lord's Day is the foundation and centre of the whole liturgical year, [120] Catholics—but those of Eastern Churches according to their own Law [121]—are obliged to attend Mass on that day and on days of precept. [122] It is not advisable therefore to organize ecumenical services on Sundays, and it must be remembered that even when Catholics participate in ecumenical services or in services of other Churches and ecclesial Communities, the obligation of participating at Mass on these days remains.

Sharing in Non-Sacramental Liturgical Worship

116. By liturgical worship is meant worship carried out according to books, prescriptions and customs of a Church or ecclesial Community, presided over by a minister or delegate of that Church or Community. This liturgical worship may be of a non-sacramental kind, or may be the celebration of one or more of the Christian sacraments. The concern here is non-sacramental worship.

...

118. In liturgical celebrations taking place in other Churches and ecclesial Communities, Catholics are encouraged to take part in the psalms, responses, hymns and common actions of the Church in which they are guests. If invited by their hosts, they may read a lesson or preach.
...

120. In the prudent judgment of the local Ordinary, the funeral rites of the Catholic Church may be granted to members of a non-Catholic Church or ecclesial Community, unless it is evidently contrary to their will and provided that their own minister is unavailable, [123] and that the general provisions of Canon Law do not forbid it. [124]

123. Whenever necessity requires or a genuine spiritual advantage suggests, and provided that the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided, it is lawful for any Catholic for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister, to receive the sacraments of penance, Eucharist and anointing of the sick from a minister of an Eastern Church. [128]

footnotes:
119 Cf. UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO, n. 8.
120 Cf. SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM, n. 106.
121 Cf. CCEO, can. 881, 1; CIC, can. 1247.
122 Cf. CIC, can. 1247; CCEO, can. 881, 1.
123 Cf. CIC, can. 1183, 3; CCEO, can. 876, 1.
124 Cf. CIC, can. 1184; CCEO, can. 887.
128 Cf. CIC, can. 844, 2 and CCEO, can. 671, 2.

CCEO Canon 881
1. The Christian faithful are bound by the obligation to participate on Sundays and feast days in the Divine Liturgy, or according to the prescriptions or legitimate customs of their own Church sui iuris, in the celebration of the divine praises.
2. In order for the Christian faithful to fulfill this obligation more easily, the available time runs from the evening of the vigil until the end of the Sunday or feast day.
3. The Christian faithful are strongly recommended to receive the Divine Eucharist on these days and indeed more frequently, even daily.
4. The Christian faithful should abstain from those labors or business matters which impede the worship to be rendered to God, the joy which is proper to the Lord's day, or to the proper relaxation of mind and body.


__________________

Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old Mar 15, '12, 11:15 pm
RyanBlack's Avatar
RyanBlack RyanBlack is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2010
Posts: 1,920
Religion: Ruthenian Catholic
Default Re: Communing in an Orthodox church

Quote:
Originally Posted by MariaGoretti88 View Post
You're using the Protestant tactic of taking one thing out of context to try to refute an entire claim without holding it up to other things of the same source. They do that with verses of Scripture without considering other parts of the Holy Word, whereas you are taking one part of one official document without holding it up to other documents that are also official.

The Catholic Church by definition cannot contradict itself and you shouldn't speak that way of Holy Mother Church. It is not for you to decide what doctrines of hers are and are not important.

Again, if you don't accept her doctrines then there's no point in running to her for help if you're dying (Sacrament of Extreme Unction) unless you are ready to submit to her authority (confess disbelief and convert before expiring).
The words you have used to attack my position could just as easily be turned against you. You might consider that.

Also, please consider this: what gives you the right to condemn the Orthodox as heretics and schismatics, and to claim that they should not be permitted to receive communion in the Catholic Church when the hierarchy of the Catholic Church and the Catechism of the Catholic Church teach otherwise? You are not proclaiming what the Church teaches, you are proclaiming your personal opinion. I have no desire to deny you your right to your opinion, but please don't misrepresent it as being the teaching of the Church.
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old Mar 16, '12, 2:12 am
MariaGoretti88 MariaGoretti88 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 24, 2011
Posts: 112
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: Communing in an Orthodox church

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5Loaves View Post
Before things go any further along these lines please review the Sticky: Important Forum Information #4 at the top of the EC Section "On the use of the words uniate, schismatic, and heretic".
Just read it. Thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanBlack View Post
The words you have used to attack my position could just as easily be turned against you. You might consider that.

Also, please consider this: what gives you the right to condemn the Orthodox as heretics and schismatics, and to claim that they should not be permitted to receive communion in the Catholic Church when the hierarchy of the Catholic Church and the Catechism of the Catholic Church teach otherwise? You are not proclaiming what the Church teaches, you are proclaiming your personal opinion. I have no desire to deny you your right to your opinion, but please don't misrepresent it as being the teaching of the Church.
I shall quote from the Thirteenth Session of the Council of Trent, Chapter 8...

"And finally this holy Synod with true fatherly affection admonishes, exhorts, begs, and beseeches, through the bowels of the mercy of our God, that all and each of those who bear the Christian name would now at length agree and be of one mind in this sign of unity, in this bond of charity, in this symbol of concord; and that mindful of the so great majesty, and the so [Page 82] exceeding love of our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave His own beloved soul as the price of our salvation, and gave us His own flesh to eat, they would believe and venerate these sacred mysteries of His body and blood with such constancy and firmness of faith, with such devotion of soul, with such piety and worship as to be able frequently to receive that supersubstantial bread, and that it may be to them truly the life of the soul, and the perpetual health of their mind; that being invigorated by the strength thereof, they may, after the journeying of this miserable pilgrimage, be able to arrive at their heavenly country, there to eat, without any veil, that same bread of angels which they now eat under the sacred veils."

For Roman Catholics, this is a real and valid Council of the Church that must be accepted and the Catechism that you stated does not and cannot contradict the doctrines of this or any previous Council or declaration before it (the Catechism). This shows us (although there are other sources too) that receiving Holy Communion is a sign of unity in belief, but the Orthodox, regardless of their status with the Church, do not believe everything that Roman Catholics do, why do you think they are two different Churches if our beliefs are exactly the same? Other posters here (and it seems like most Orthodox that I've talked to) acknowledge that the Catholic Church and Orthodox Church do not agree on every single doctrine.

That said, just because others would receive Sacraments from non-Catholic ministers in danger of death, why do you think that I am obligated to? I find that the Canons posted above give room for people like me to feel no obligation to receive Sacraments outside of the Church that I belong to. No where has the Catholic Church said that I am under grave obligation to receive Eastern Orthodox Sacraments in danger of death.

In fact, I don't think the Church could even obligate me to receive any Sacrament since I've passed the age of reason.

I do consider that the same arguments I'm using can be (and have been) used against me. I appreciate the arguments people have made and presented to me, but I still as of now would prefer to receive no Sacraments unless I'd be receiving them from Catholic ministers.

I'll also reiterate that I believe that Eastern Orthodox Sacraments are valid and real, but I believe that I would be sinning mortally against the First Commandment if I were to receive them and would also be sinning against the Theological Virtue of Faith (and indirectly offending the Blessed Mother and the Holy Father by denying dogmas pertaining to them).

I have read somewhere that Catholics aren't allowed to receive communion at non-Catholic services even if it's offered to us (I hardly doubt anyways that if I were dying that a Protestant's first reaction would be to offer me communion...) but even if I weren't dying.

Also, I know for a fact that I am not misrepresenting the Catholic Church by claiming that the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin and her Assumption into Heaven and Infallibility of His Holiness in faith or morals are binding dogmas on all Christians that need to be held to be in-communion with the Church.

So you're telling me I can publicly deny the Immaculate Conception after understanding what it means and its significance to Christians and still worthily receive Holy Communion without any danger of committing a mortal sin? Explain how because if that is the case, why should I receive the Sacrament of Penance ever? If you need a quote affirming the IC as dogma, I can find one for you. Let me know.
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old Mar 16, '12, 2:35 am
RyanBlack's Avatar
RyanBlack RyanBlack is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2010
Posts: 1,920
Religion: Ruthenian Catholic
Default Re: Communing in an Orthodox church

Quote:
Originally Posted by MariaGoretti88 View Post
Just read it. Thank you.



I shall quote from the Thirteenth Session of the Council of Trent, Chapter 8...

"And finally this holy Synod with true fatherly affection admonishes, exhorts, begs, and beseeches, through the bowels of the mercy of our God, that all and each of those who bear the Christian name would now at length agree and be of one mind in this sign of unity, in this bond of charity, in this symbol of concord; and that mindful of the so great majesty, and the so [Page 82] exceeding love of our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave His own beloved soul as the price of our salvation, and gave us His own flesh to eat, they would believe and venerate these sacred mysteries of His body and blood with such constancy and firmness of faith, with such devotion of soul, with such piety and worship as to be able frequently to receive that supersubstantial bread, and that it may be to them truly the life of the soul, and the perpetual health of their mind; that being invigorated by the strength thereof, they may, after the journeying of this miserable pilgrimage, be able to arrive at their heavenly country, there to eat, without any veil, that same bread of angels which they now eat under the sacred veils."

For Roman Catholics, this is a real and valid Council of the Church that must be accepted and the Catechism that you stated does not and cannot contradict the doctrines of this or any previous Council or declaration before it (the Catechism). This shows us (although there are other sources too) that receiving Holy Communion is a sign of unity in belief, but the Orthodox, regardless of their status with the Church, do not believe everything that Roman Catholics do, why do you think they are two different Churches if our beliefs are exactly the same? Other posters here (and it seems like most Orthodox that I've talked to) acknowledge that the Catholic Church and Orthodox Church do not agree on every single doctrine.

That said, just because others would receive Sacraments from non-Catholic ministers in danger of death, why do you think that I am obligated to? I find that the Canons posted above give room for people like me to feel no obligation to receive Sacraments outside of the Church that I belong to. No where has the Catholic Church said that I am under grave obligation to receive Eastern Orthodox Sacraments in danger of death.

In fact, I don't think the Church could even obligate me to receive any Sacrament since I've passed the age of reason.

I do consider that the same arguments I'm using can be (and have been) used against me. I appreciate the arguments people have made and presented to me, but I still as of now would prefer to receive no Sacraments unless I'd be receiving them from Catholic ministers.

I'll also reiterate that I believe that Eastern Orthodox Sacraments are valid and real, but I believe that I would be sinning mortally against the First Commandment if I were to receive them and would also be sinning against the Theological Virtue of Faith (and indirectly offending the Blessed Mother and the Holy Father by denying dogmas pertaining to them).

I have read somewhere that Catholics aren't allowed to receive communion at non-Catholic services even if it's offered to us (I hardly doubt anyways that if I were dying that a Protestant's first reaction would be to offer me communion...) but even if I weren't dying.

Also, I know for a fact that I am not misrepresenting the Catholic Church by claiming that the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin and her Assumption into Heaven and Infallibility of His Holiness in faith or morals are binding dogmas on all Christians that need to be held to be in-communion with the Church.

So you're telling me I can publicly deny the Immaculate Conception after understanding what it means and its significance to Christians and still worthily receive Holy Communion without any danger of committing a mortal sin? Explain how because if that is the case, why should I receive the Sacrament of Penance ever? If you need a quote affirming the IC as dogma, I can find one for you. Let me know.
I don't think you are obligated to receive sacraments in the Orthodox Church, and I never said so, so I don't know why you are putting that question to me. However, the Catholic Church does indeed permit her members to do so in cases or true need (provided the Orthodox priest grants permission).

As far as the Church not being able to obligate you to receive any sacrament because you are past the age of reason, I believe that you are incorrect; it's my understanding that you are obligated to confess at least once per year and to receive communion at least once per year, although I'm open to correction if I'm wrong.

I never stated that you are misrepresenting Catholic teaching by claiming that the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption of the Theotokos, and papal infallibility are dogmatic, so I do not know why you are posing this question to me. And no, I do not need any quotes from you to prove that the Catholic Church teaches that the Immaculate Conception is dogma. I'm quite familiar with Catholic teaching. As to your problem with the Orthodox denial (often it's more indifference, rather than outright denial) of certain Catholic dogmas and their having permission to receive communion in Catholic parishes, I suggest you not direct your anger at me and others on this Forum, but at the hierarchy of the Catholic Church, since the pope and his brother bishops are the ones who give this permission.
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old Mar 16, '12, 5:28 am
Peter J's Avatar
Peter J Peter J is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: April 7, 2008
Posts: 9,505
Religion: Melkite (Melkite Catholic)
Post Re: Communing in an Orthodox church

Quote:
Originally Posted by MariaGoretti88 View Post
They are. I just don't understand why it's only a small remnant of Catholics that seems to be protective of our Sacraments and dogmas. I don't know, but I will continue to pray about this because I'm always left walking in circles lol.
The West isn't very traditional. Catholics typically are more traditional than Anglicans and Protestants, but still not terribly traditional.

On the Orthodox forum that I participate on, the question often comes up of whether it's alright to pray with non-Orthodox. Interesting contrast when I come here, where common prayer is taken for granted and intercommunion is pushed for.
__________________
- Peter Jericho

"Pastoral activity in the Catholic Church, Latin as well as Eastern, no longer aims at having the faithful of one Church pass over to the other"
- the Balamand Statement
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Eastern Catholicism

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
8039Meet and talk,talk talk
Last by: Mary Virginia
4828CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: tawny
4292Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: FootStool
4027OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: fencersmother
3812SOLITUDE
Last by: beth40n2
3373Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: RJB
3184Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: libralion
3149Poems and Reflections
Last by: PathWalker
2962For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: SERVENT FOR GOD
2698Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: Amiciel



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:04 am.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2013, Catholic Answers.