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  #226  
Old Mar 31, '12, 3:51 am
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speakttruth speakttruth is offline
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Default Re: Two lesbians raised a baby and this is what they got.

TheCCC explains the bible. That is what our Church gave us for instruction. Who are you to say don't read it, it's wrong?. You one person? Homosexual acts are the sin, not the inclination, temptation. Some things are to difficult to learn on our own, that is why Jesus in the Bible said to follow his church. On faith and morals the Church teaches the truth. If you just read the Bible without instruction from the Church, then you are a protestant.
You should leave this' site if your pushing anything else. This is not the Catholic teachings.




Did you even bother to read what I sent about Courage? They don't identify themselves as homosexual or gay. Men who are chaste with SSA problems. What is the matter with you? If you say your gay then you identify with your sexual preference. That is not who they are it is what they are doing.




Quote:
Originally Posted by kelcca View Post
Once again your are not arguing with me but with the words of God and the writings of the saints and Church Fathers, who have said over and over again homosexuality is evil and a sin, just to identify yourself as a homosexually is sinful and a false identity because that is not how God made you or see's you. Who care's what the CCC say's , I take my morals from the Bible and the saints. These Courage conferences and groups are leading gay's astray and lying to them. The best thing that happened to me was some one being honest with me and telling me that being gay and identifying myself as a gay/bi man was sinful.
  #227  
Old Mar 31, '12, 3:54 am
Eugenius Eugenius is offline
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Default Re: Two lesbians raised a baby and this is what they got.

Quote:
Originally Posted by speakttruth View Post
Jesus warns us from the very beginning to follow his Father, when he talked about marriage, he only spoke of it between a man and a women to come together as one flesh, like the Father has said in Genesis. Look in the scriptures about Marriage. Even Peter said it, St Paul talk about it. Why wouldn't Jesus say, because there was homosexuality back then, that by the way, homosexuals who love one another can get married too? He said if you have lust in your heart it would be better for you to marry and he said that about a women to a man and vice versa. otherwise stay single, no other choices that he gave. There are plenty of scriptures that hold on to a marriage only between a man and women. It's not true that no where does it talk about marriage. Just those two statements from Jesus alone was proof what God wanted for us. Besides the biological fact of our very bodies. Anyway, sorry to ramble, I hope you understand, I want heaven for you too.
From a civil perspective marriage has become more than just a man and a woman united in a holy sacrament and it is from this expanded definition (insurance, inheritance, rights of survivorship, etc.) that homosexuals feel that they have a right to marry. Most of them could care less about the religious meaning.
  #228  
Old Mar 31, '12, 4:05 am
Eugenius Eugenius is offline
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Default Re: Two lesbians raised a baby and this is what they got.

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Originally Posted by kelcca View Post
See according to kelcca, looking at a woman with lust is the same as sleeping with her, so looking at a man with lust is the same as sleeping with him.

There is so much wrong with this level of logic, the only way he could possibly support it is that he doesn't think about it logically. You cannot help this man. Kelcca will believe whatever he wants to believe. It's best to just ignore him.

Your problem is not with me it is with Jesus and the writings of the Church Fathers and the Saints.

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to desire her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away! It is better to lose one of your members than to have your whole body thrown into hell. 30 If your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away! It is better to lose one of your members than to have your whole body go into hell (Matthew 5:27-30).

There it is straight from the mouth of God, how you can even argue with the word of God is beyond me. To look is a sin, to have thoughts is a sin/ WHY? Because we are in a constant stat of sin. The ignorance of Catholics about the Bible and the teachings of Jesus never seems to stop amazing me.
Out of curiosity are you a convert? You seem to place more importance on the Protestant concept of literal "sola scriptura" than in what the church teaches. How do you pick and choose what to believe and enforce by interpreting the Bible and the church fathers without guidance from the church?
  #229  
Old Mar 31, '12, 4:29 am
Dorothy Dorothy is offline
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Default Re: Two lesbians raised a baby and this is what they got.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kelcca View Post
If I was trolling the last thing I would do is quote the words of Jesus, I suggest you put down the CCC and pick up your Bible. The CCC will only confuse you and lead you way from the truth of the Bible.
Please explain if I am misunderstanding you, but it appears to me that you consider temptation the same as sin.

In the Bible Our Lord Jesus Christ tells us that when a man looks at a woman lustfully he has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

I agree with Our Lord Jesus Christ. Please be aware that Our Lord is not speaking of temptation, but a person who has looked lustfully, and having given in to the temptation in his mind and will. Can you see the difference?

To resist temptation is to become stronger spiritually.

There needs to be an understanding of what temptation is and what giving in to that temptation is.
A person can be tempted in many ways, but in becoming aware of the temptation he rejects it, then he has not committed mortal sin.

To be tempted is not a sin......it is how we deal with the temptation.
  #230  
Old Mar 31, '12, 12:34 pm
kelcca kelcca is offline
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Default Re: Two lesbians raised a baby and this is what they got.

I disagree, to be temped , to have lustful thoughts is a sin. I place importance on the Bible, I attend a FSSP Church, a SSPX church, I go to the traditional mass because that is the real mass,I do not go for any other reason that for the mass. I also have a good friend who is a evangelical pastor, The best thing a catholic can do in my opinion is attend a evangelical Bible study. I use to go to both a Catholic and a evangelical study group, It didn't taken long for me to walk away from the Catholic one. No one at the Catholic one even new what was in the Bible including the nun leading the study, they studied and refereed to the CCC more than the Bible and were constantly contradicting themselves and the Bible. I take my faith from the Bible , church fathers and the saints, I believe in the pre Vatican 2 mass is the real mass, the mass that was translated from Greek to Latin in the yr 200 I believe, The new mass, the new CCC is a false mass and false CCC. If you have any doubt real the CCC of the Council of Trent.
As for interpreting the Bible and the writings of the Church Fathers, it's not that hard, it is writing pretty straight forward, but people like to twist and add modernism to the writings and destroy the faith. I have heard the most horrible interpretations of scripture from Priest, I would go as far as saying most priest and nun's that I have heard give terrible interpretations of the Bible, I would go as far as to say I have never hear a priest in the RCC give a hell fire, truthful,Biblical sermon.Most I have talked to believe in salvation for all, all religions and beliefs are valid, all life styles are ok, . It was my evangelical pastor friend that helped me with my bi-sexuality, not a priest, not a catholic gay support group, they where all useless to say the lease. Not until I came to the understanding that it is a sexually sin, an illness, was I able to conquer it. That is why I believe it is IMPOSSIBLE to be gay and christian, it is in total contraction to the scriptures and to Jesus.
  #231  
Old Mar 31, '12, 12:57 pm
Dorothy Dorothy is offline
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Default Re: Two lesbians raised a baby and this is what they got.

kelcca wrote: <<I disagree, to be temped , to have lustful thoughts is a sin.>>

I don't think you have understood what I had written in my post.

You are saying that temptation is a sin......and then you say to have lustful thoughts is a sin.

I am saying there is a difference. To be tempted, but to refuse the temptation is NOT a sin.

To have lustful thoughts and to dwell on them and entertain them IS a sin.


I attend many Masses in my area that are not pre-Vatican 2. They are reverent, with beautiful music, and timely homilies. In those Masses I receive the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ, just as you do.

Please do not make general statements about priests. When we ask the Lord for discernment He can help us see what priests, and/or members of parishes are not speaking exactly what the Church teaches.

I agree that these are troubled times and we all need to stand up for our faith, and to pray much for priests and for each other.
  #232  
Old Mar 31, '12, 2:46 pm
kelcca kelcca is offline
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Default Re: Two lesbians raised a baby and this is what they got.

I agree , but it is hard to respect priest who do not respect Jesus. preach the thru word of God, and who openly and on the alter openly support modernism, universality of religions, and homosexuality. I have seen it and heard it to many times, priest who do not believe in the Bible or the Church. That is the main reason I go to FSSP, it is about the worship.
  #233  
Old Mar 31, '12, 2:53 pm
kelcca kelcca is offline
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Default Re: Two lesbians raised a baby and this is what they got.

I know I come across as hard or intolerant but I do not want people to be trapped as I was in homosexuality and believe it is ok so long as you dont act on it. Not viewing yourself as homosexual or bisexual is the first step in over coming those desires,lust and thoughts. View yourself as some one who has been forgiven and delivered from those sin's by the work of Jesus on the cross. Do not identify yourself by your sin's, if you do there is always the chance of falling back into the darkness of the sin. If I label myself as gay or bisexual then there is always the chance of supporting there cause, the issues, there agenda. and believe me there is a agenda.
  #234  
Old Mar 31, '12, 3:40 pm
Dorothy Dorothy is offline
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Default Re: Two lesbians raised a baby and this is what they got.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kelcca View Post
I know I come across as hard or intolerant but I do not want people to be trapped as I was in homosexuality and believe it is ok so long as you dont act on it. Not viewing yourself as homosexual or bisexual is the first step in over coming those desires,lust and thoughts. View yourself as some one who has been forgiven and delivered from those sin's by the work of Jesus on the cross. Do not identify yourself by your sin's, if you do there is always the chance of falling back into the darkness of the sin. If I label myself as gay or bisexual then there is always the chance of supporting there cause, the issues, there agenda. and believe me there is a agenda.
I give thanks to the Lord for the grace He has given you and that you willingly received it from Him!
  #235  
Old Apr 1, '12, 9:17 pm
karoleck karoleck is offline
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Smile Re: Two lesbians raised a baby and this is what they got.

Here is a great example of leadership as regards what Catholics need to do to fight this "militant gay rights" push to normalize a situation similar to the subject of this thread.

These Bishops have taken this threat seriously,we as catholics should follow their directions within our own contexts and country.

Friday, March 30, 2012
Victorian Bishops Pastoral Letter on Same Sex Marriage***updated
The bishops of Victoria have released a Pastoral Letter against same sex marriage legislation. Have a read then go do the survey referred to!

"Dear Brothers & Sisters

We Australians live in a democracy which rightly places great value on human rights and protecting others from unjust discrimination.

We Catholics also believe deeply that God loves human beings very much. He especially loves those who are wounded and suffering. God loves each of us so much despite the fact that we are all sinners, make mistakes and often do not live up to our responsibilities.

The Church takes seriously that we must live the Gospel itself to be a credible witness to others. Deeply aware of Christ’s mission of compassion and justice - the Church cannot ignore the responsibility to speak the truth in love. Sometimes reminding people about the truth of the human person is one such task for all of us.

Some now seek to alter the very nature of the human person through legislation. Our Australian society is now at a critical turning point where truth is at stake.

We speak of current debates about the nature of marriage in our public life. Often it seems as if this matter is simply about human rights and the removal of discrimination. But in addition to ‘human rights’ there are also ‘human responsibilities’.

We are all blessed by God with the gift of our sexuality. The design itself comes from the Creator of Life. We all have a responsibility to follow that design.

The Church firmly believes that marriage is founded on the wonderful fact of sexual difference and its potential for new life. Without this there would be no human beings and no future. Bringing new human life into the world is founded on the loving union in difference of male and female. Children are best nurtured by a mother and father.

As one theologian has put it eloquently: “The God of love can be present in every true love. But ‘gay marriage’ is impossible because it attempts to cut loose marriage from its grounding in our biological life. If we do that, we deny our humanity.”

This will be a ’hard saying’ for some. It in no way implies that the Church accepts discrimination against other’s human rights. Nor does it mean we fail to understand the complex nature of human sexual identity and desire. It implies no lack of respect for people who identify as ‘gay’ and ‘lesbian’. As Cardinal Francis George of Chicago recently pointed out: ‘… we all have friends or family members who are gay and lesbian… these are people we know and love and are part of our families.’

However as fellow citizens our concern is for the future of our whole society. We ask you to seriously reflect and pray about the ramifications for current and future generations, of legislation which completely redefines marriage.

A grave mistake will be made if such legislation is enacted. The Government cannot redefine the natural
institution of marriage, a union between a man and a woman. The Government can regulate marriage, but this natural institution existed long before there were any governments. It cannot be changed at will.

The argument that same sex marriage supports marriage is wrong. The natural institution will not only be
changed, it will be re-defined absolutely. It will become something different. Such a re-definition will undermine rather than support marriage.

Catholics, as responsible citizens of the Commonwealth of Australia, have a duty to remind their political representatives that much is at stake for the common good in this debate. We urge you to exercise that right and make direct representation to your Members of Parliament.




http://australiaincognita.blogspot.c...letter-on.html
  #236  
Old Apr 1, '12, 9:38 pm
sw85 sw85 is offline
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Default Re: Two lesbians raised a baby and this is what they got.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigress View Post
What isn't a mortal sin!?
Lots of things aren't mortal sins. Breathing isn't a mortal sin. Sleeping isn't. Eating isn't. Saying hi to your coworkers isn't. Donating to charity isn't. Going to mass isn't. etc.

Lots of things *are* mortal sins, too. Like homosexuality, masturbation, contraception, "divorce," lying, stealing, etc.

Mortal sin is simply the willful and knowing turning-away from the will of God, either from His will as expressed to us directly or indirectly through Christ or the prophets/apostles or from His will as expressed through the act of creation. He gave you your sexual faculties so that you could have children and, through it, grow closer to the partner who will give you those children. He did not give those faculties to us so we could sit around stimulating ourselves till our eyes cross. We are meant to be according to the normative nature God gave us. That's a normative nature that, logically and statistically, excludes homosexuality.

Quote:
Honestly I have no idea what any of that means.Honestly I have no knowledge on anything at all when it comes to the stricter part of religion as I was raised loosely within the confines of Christianity. I was taught that good people who are nice and forgiving go to Heaven and evil people like killers and blokes of the sort go to Hell. Simple.
Well, I encourage you to read the Catechism (the USCCB, I'm told, produces a nice Catechism for the laity on its Web site). It's very useful and lays out, among other things, all the dogmas and doctrines of the Church to which you are required to assent.

What should be clear is that you are not free to believe whatever you want and still be a Catholic. There are certain truths to which you are required to give assent in order to be a Catholic in good standing This includes the infallibility of the Church's magisterium, which it has exercised in order to declare, firmly, that homosexual acts are mortally sinful and gravely disordered.

Quote:
Then I go to this forum and everything about my belief system has been turned on its head. I guess I'm going to Hell, then, even though I donate to charities, pray every night, volunteer and local animal shelters, work as a foster owner, and volunteer at the zoo- all at the age of fourteen. So be it. No, I'm not trying to commit vanity or anything; I'm not saying I'm perfect, but I'm saying something like being "pro-marriage" (is that the term?), but I'm trying to make a point- I do just as many good things as I do bad.
It has nothing to do with you or what good you might do in your free time. Denial of the doctrines of the Church (all of which are right there in the Catechism) is the sin of heresy. Done publicly, it's the sin of scandal. The doctrine in question relates to homosexual acts, which are described as sinful and which are not to be endorsed by any faithful Catholic. I encourage you to read the Catechism as a supplement to Biblical studies.

Judgment isn't about weighing up all your good deeds on one side of the scale and your bad ones on the other and seeing which weighs more. A single, unrepented mortal sin will damn a soul, and not all the good works in the world can make up for it. It's not about you. It's about God. If you want to get to Heaven, live your life about God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rturner76 View Post
TIgress, you aren't going to hell and neither is any person for their sexual prefrence. I challenge anybody to show where Christ addresses sexuality directly in the Bible. He doesn't. In fact he says "Judge not lest you be judged." He says "Let he who is without sin cast the first stine." He says something like before you tell your brother about the spec in his eye, take the plank out of your own eye." Don't let some self richeous hipocrite tell you who not to love. Jesus Christ left us with 2 commandments. Love God and Love your neighbor period. God bless you for being willing to love someone enough to withstand punishment for them because that is what Christ did. These so called do gooders don't care about anybody but themelves thinking they are so holy. They are no better than any other sinner just like me. I'm no better than them. We are all under sin and that's why we need a savior.

GOd bless you Tigress, I just had to say that.
First, please do not presume to seduce Catholics to heresy on these boards.

Second, I see nowhere in the Bible where the doctrine of the Trinity is firmly articulated. Does it follow that it's false?

Sola scriptura is based on the false presupposition that God made a total, chaotic mess of the universe and that we can know nothing theological with any certainty except what He reveals to us. This is false. God created the universe as an orderly, rational cosmos, not a disjointed, particularized chaos. And from that rational and orderly cosmos we can discern certain moral laws. We can discern that just as surely as the goodness of a knife consists in its ability to cut, so the goodness of a man consists in the use of his faculties in a manner consistent with their respective ends. The sexual faculties exist for the purpose of reproduction and the achievement of the spousal unity which enables reproduction to succeed long-term, not for buggery and self-delight.
__________________
"…[M]istrust is always in order when the greater part of living history must be tossed into the dustbin of old misunderstandings now happily clarified."

-- Pope Benedict XVI --
  #237  
Old Apr 2, '12, 5:20 am
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speakttruth speakttruth is offline
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Default Re: Two lesbians raised a baby and this is what they got.

Very well said.
God Bless


Quote:
Originally Posted by sw85 View Post
Lots of things aren't mortal sins. Breathing isn't a mortal sin. Sleeping isn't. Eating isn't. Saying hi to your coworkers isn't. Donating to charity isn't. Going to mass isn't. etc.

Lots of things *are* mortal sins, too. Like homosexuality, masturbation, contraception, "divorce," lying, stealing, etc.

Mortal sin is simply the willful and knowing turning-away from the will of God, either from His will as expressed to us directly or indirectly through Christ or the prophets/apostles or from His will as expressed through the act of creation. He gave you your sexual faculties so that you could have children and, through it, grow closer to the partner who will give you those children. He did not give those faculties to us so we could sit around stimulating ourselves till our eyes cross. We are meant to be according to the normative nature God gave us. That's a normative nature that, logically and statistically, excludes homosexuality.



Well, I encourage you to read the Catechism (the USCCB, I'm told, produces a nice Catechism for the laity on its Web site). It's very useful and lays out, among other things, all the dogmas and doctrines of the Church to which you are required to assent.

What should be clear is that you are not free to believe whatever you want and still be a Catholic. There are certain truths to which you are required to give assent in order to be a Catholic in good standing This includes the infallibility of the Church's magisterium, which it has exercised in order to declare, firmly, that homosexual acts are mortally sinful and gravely disordered.



It has nothing to do with you or what good you might do in your free time. Denial of the doctrines of the Church (all of which are right there in the Catechism) is the sin of heresy. Done publicly, it's the sin of scandal. The doctrine in question relates to homosexual acts, which are described as sinful and which are not to be endorsed by any faithful Catholic. I encourage you to read the Catechism as a supplement to Biblical studies.

Judgment isn't about weighing up all your good deeds on one side of the scale and your bad ones on the other and seeing which weighs more. A single, unrepented mortal sin will damn a soul, and not all the good works in the world can make up for it. It's not about you. It's about God. If you want to get to Heaven, live your life about God.



First, please do not presume to seduce Catholics to heresy on these boards.

Second, I see nowhere in the Bible where the doctrine of the Trinity is firmly articulated. Does it follow that it's false?

Sola scriptura is based on the false presupposition that God made a total, chaotic mess of the universe and that we can know nothing theological with any certainty except what He reveals to us. This is false. God created the universe as an orderly, rational cosmos, not a disjointed, particularized chaos. And from that rational and orderly cosmos we can discern certain moral laws. We can discern that just as surely as the goodness of a knife consists in its ability to cut, so the goodness of a man consists in the use of his faculties in a manner consistent with their respective ends. The sexual faculties exist for the purpose of reproduction and the achievement of the spousal unity which enables reproduction to succeed long-term, not for buggery and self-delight.
  #238  
Old Apr 2, '12, 6:16 am
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speakttruth speakttruth is offline
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Default Re: Two lesbians raised a baby and this is what they got.

In response to Karoleck


The Pastoral care is a suggestion on how we should respond to people with SSA, not a
doctrine and some are wrong.

The( United States) USCCB was originally drawn up from a homosexual priest, and later he was removed, and they have tried to improve it. The Late Fr. Harvey, founder of Courage argued it was not accurate, they have improved it, but it is still gives the wrong impression of accepting them as homosexuals. We are still trying to get it changed. This one below is more in line with the Catholic Teachings from Canada and was sent out to our Encourage and Courage groups. We still have some bad bishops and priests out there, but the the truth from the Catholic Church teachings of faith and morals is what we are to follow, that is why it's good to have a CCC to check their teachings. Our Pope spells it out pretty clear what the Church teachings are against homosexuality and SSM.

Also the Courage apostate does not want people called gay or homosexual, SSA is a condition, not a lifestyle. If you haven't been involved with this group who help men and women live a chaste life, then you cannot judge it. To say they lie, is insulting and not true. Temptation is not a sin, Jesus was tempted in the desert and he has no sin in him. The CCC does not disregard the Council of Trent. The church has every right to improve and correct it's teaching to make it more clear to understand. Everything in the CCC quotes the Bible itself. It tells what the Catholic church believes to make it easier to under our faith. After all it was the Catholic Church who created the Bible, not protestants. The Catholic mass is valid in Latin and English, the priests consecrates and Jesus is present in both and although the Latin Mass is even holier they have a new translation in English that is even more in line with the Latin mass. I am happy your out of that life style, but to say not to follow the Church and the CCC, and only read your Bible you are committing a heresy. Your are on a Catholic Forum and you cannot pick and choose what you want to believe, you may not understand it, but either you believe all of or none of it. Then you become a Protestant, protesting.


Subject:] Canadian Bishops new release "Pastoral Ministry to Young People with Same-Sex Attraction"


This was a comment of a member.

WOW! It looks like the Canadian Bishop's conference has come a long way since it's infamous "Winnipeg Statement" of 1968. Our prayers must be working. It sounds like they took #2 straight from something from one of Fr. Harvey's books:

2. In this document the expression “person with same-sex attraction” refers to one who feels an
erotic and emotional attraction, which is predominant and not merely episodic, toward persons
of the same sex, whether with or without sexual relations. The terms “gay” and “lesbian” are not
used to define people in the Church’s official teachings and documents. Although these words are
common terms in current speech, and many people use them to describe themselves, they do not
describe persons with the fullness and richness that the Church recognizes and respects in every
man or woman. Instead, “gay” and “lesbian” are often cultural definitions for people and movements
that have accepted homosexual acts and behaviors as morally good.

The complete document:

http://www.cccb.ca/site/images/stori...try-ssa_en.pdf
__._,_.___
  #239  
Old Apr 2, '12, 9:14 am
LJH_80 LJH_80 is offline
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Default Re: Two lesbians raised a baby and this is what they got.

Just to throw this up there, there is a difference between "being homosexual" and 'being homosexual."

A human is naturally a bipedal animal, correct? Do you agree that sometimes a person is born without two legs, however? Ergo the normal is not the always.
Thus, in the same vein that a human could be born without a leg, or with a brain not wired to receive sound, it is theoretically possible for a person to be born with a brain wired incorrectly so that a male is born with the sexual preferences of a female.
If you believe that every birth defect except this specific one is possible, then you'd better have a good reason why this specific issue is the one thing that could never be messed up when a person is born.

Now, let us take this man Steve who is attracted to men, and compare him to Bob, who is attracted to women. Both these men lead entirely celibate lifestyles in both action and mind. While they may occasionally experience arrousal (as anybody does), they do not dwell on the sensation or languish in those thoughts, instead they try as hard as possible to re-direct their energies to a more constructive goal.

Does it matter which gender they are not sleeping with? Jesus says that to look at a woman with lust is the same as comitting adultery, therefore simply being attracted to women is the same as sleeping with them, right?
Or there is a difference between simply having a biological attraction to women and dwelling on thoughts of lust.
Likewise, there is a difference between having a biological attraction to men and dwelling on such thoughts.

Having the uncontrolable biological attraction to one gender is no more sinful than having an uncontrolable biological attraction to the other gender. Yes?
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