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  #16  
Old Apr 4, '12, 3:32 pm
JPeter JPeter is offline
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Default Re: Why is the Book of Enoch not in the Bible?

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Originally Posted by GaryTaylor View Post
The Book of Enoch is referred to, and quoted, in Jude 14-15
Inspired authors were known to use uninspired sources to make a point. The fact that the book of Enoch was mentioned in Jude does not make in canon.
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  #17  
Old Apr 4, '12, 4:18 pm
JPeter JPeter is offline
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Default Re: Why is the Book of Enoch not in the Bible?

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Originally Posted by LaughingBoy1503 View Post
I think I know what scripture you are refering to when you say to conclude the Nephilim were half angel half human is contrary to what Jesus said about the nature of angels. I actully never thought of that. But what did Moses say about kinds? That I dont know.
Though Moses observed that selective breeding changes animals (Gen. 30:40-41), He also observed that creatures breed only with members of their own kind (Gen. 2:18-24). Each kind of life reproduces itself (Gen.1:11-12) without developing into other kinds of life. "Kind" as Moses used it is far broader than the modern biological term "species," since the modern term often describes unique breeds of creatures. For Moses, the "kinds" that entered the ark are breeding pairs from which all present varieties have descended.
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  #18  
Old Apr 4, '12, 5:17 pm
JPeter JPeter is offline
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Default Re: Why is the Book of Enoch not in the Bible?

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Originally Posted by JPeter View Post
Though Moses observed that selective breeding changes animals (Gen. 30:40-41), He also observed that creatures breed only with members of their own kind (Gen. 2:18-24). Each kind of life reproduces itself (Gen.1:11-12) without developing into other kinds of life. "Kind" as Moses used it is far broader than the modern biological term "species," since the modern term often describes unique breeds of creatures. For Moses, the "kinds" that entered the ark are breeding pairs from which all present varieties have descended.
Angels and humans are more than a different species. They are totally different "kinds".
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  #19  
Old Apr 4, '12, 5:22 pm
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Jerusha Jerusha is offline
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Default Re: Why is the Book of Enoch not in the Bible?

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Originally Posted by JPeter View Post
Angels and humans are more than a different species. They are totally different "kinds".
So we need further explanation of
Quote:
In the book of Job "Sons of God" translates to Angels but again this does not imply that the "sons of God" in Genesis translates to Angels. It is most probably referring to the descendants of Seth looking upon the daughters of Cain. The Nephilim were likely a society of taller people.
for complete clarification that humans and angels are much different than each other, particularly in that angels do not have bodies.
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  #20  
Old Apr 4, '12, 7:11 pm
JPeter JPeter is offline
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Default Re: Why is the Book of Enoch not in the Bible?

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Originally Posted by Jerusha View Post
So we need further explanation of
for complete clarification that humans and angels are much different than each other, particularly in that angels do not have bodies.
This is interesting, I'm going through the Orthodox study Bible and they leave the notes under Genesis 6:2 and 4 blank. This is likely intentional as the Orthodox do not like to be over defined. They probably don't want to dot the i or cross the t. In this way they are much like Anglicans. I know for a fact that the Roman Catholics do not believe the Nephilim were Angel/human half breeds although I do not own a Roman Catholic study Bible. I am looking at samples of the Lutheran study Bible online. For Genesis 6 verses 2 and 4.

Genesis 6:2 Sons of God = Godly believers, Sethites, from whom the promised messiah would come (Gen. 3:15). Some interpreters have considered the "Sons of God" angels, based on the expression in Job 38:7. However, such a conclusion directly contradicts Jesus' teaching about the nature of angels (Mt. 22:30) and Moses teaching about "kinds". Daughters of Man = Godless unbelievers, Cainites.

Genesis 6:4 Nephilim = thugs and tyrants. The first nobility in the world were a group of tyrants, but admired nonetheless. They were sinners ripe for judgement in Gods eyes.

The Lutherans make a good point and I think the Roman Catholic Church would agree with their conclusion.
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  #21  
Old Apr 5, '12, 12:02 am
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Wandile Wandile is offline
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Default Re: Why is the Book of Enoch not in the Bible?

The early Church Fathers on the "sons of God"


Judging by the number of times the early church fathers
referred to Genesis 6:1-4 it would appear that the
passage stirred their interest then as much as it does
modern readers. The identity of the “Sons of God” was
clearly a controversial subject. In the early centuries of
the church there were three main positions to choose
from (unlike today when the number has increased to
nine or more).

For them the choice appears have been between identifying the “Sons of God” as fallen angels or as the
descendants of Seth.

Justin Martyr and Lactantius believed in the latter, identifying two classes of fallen spirits: the fallen angels and their offspring. Tertullian likewise believed that some of the angels fell through lust for women and referred to their offspring as a “more wicked demon-brood”.Irenaeus’ writings are ambiguous on the subject but appear to indicate that he believed in two separate angelic falls. In one of the earliest references to the passage Irenaeus draws heavily on 1 Enoch 6-9 when he writes the following:

And wickedness very long-continued and widespread
pervaded all the races of men, until very little seed of
justice was in them. For unlawful unions came about on
earth, as angels linked themselves with offspring of the
daughters of men, who bore to them sons, who on
account of their exceeding great were called Giants.
The angels, then, brought to their wives as gifts
teachings of evil, for they taught them the virtues of roots
and herbs, and dyeing and cosmetics and discoveries
of precious materials, love-philtes, hatreds, amours,
passions, constraints of love, the bonds of witchcraft,
every sorcery and idolatry, hateful to God; and when this
was come into the world, the affairs of wickedness were
propagated to overflowing, and those of justice
dwindled to very little.


Tatian, Clement of Alexandria and Tertullian all
echo Irenaeus’ statements and his use of 1 Enoch in
attributing to the fallen angels the origin of the magic
arts and cosmetics. It is not difficult to account for the
influence of 1 Enoch on the early church writers. After all
it was the only (what we now call) apocryphal book
explicitly cited in the New Testament (Jude 14, cf. 1
Enoch 1:9). The Ethiopian church accepted the
book into its canon and the writer of the Epistle of
Barnabas approved of it, as did Tertullian, even
though the majority rejected it. Interestingly some of
the later Fathers doubted the canonicity of Jude
precisely because it cited apocryphal books such as
Enoch. The influence of the Book of Enoch and the
popularity of the Septuagint (which translated “sons of
God” as “angels”) in the early church may explain why
no Christian writer challenged the view that the Sons of
God were angels until the third century AD. With the
rejection of the canonicity of Enoch there was a
corresponding decline in the ‘angel’ interpretation of the
‘sons of God’. In a similar way the idea of a fall (or
second fall) of the angels prior to the Flood drops out of
theological history after the time of Lactantius. From that
point on the view that the Sons of God were purely
human - the descendants of Seth - began to dominate.
The other early references to the Sethite theory were found in Jewish sources that few of the early Christian would have had access to. It was not until after the middle of the second century that a Christian writer (Julius Africanus) suggested that the 'sons of God' were Sethites.

The early Church Fathers on the sons of God

Today the debate seems to have gone full circle. with
the majority of modern scholars now holding to the
angel interpretation. This view finds support in Psalm
29:1; Job 1:6; 2:1; & 38:7 and New Testament
references to the antediluvian world in Jude 6, 1 Peter
3:19-20 and 2 Peter 2:4. Those who reject this
identification point to a saying of Jesus found in all three
synoptic gospels which they claim proves that angels
are sexless, and therefore incapable of interbreeding
with human women under any circumstances (Matt.
22:30; Mark 12:24-25; Luke 20:35-36). F.B. Huey in his
discussion of these passages writes:

...a careful, unprejudiced reading of that text reveals that
Jesus was making an analogy. He was not talking about
procreation but about relationships. He was saying that
the relationship of resurrected Christians will be
different from the relationship experienced in marriage
on earth. He was no more saying that angels are
sexless than he was teaching that resurrected
Christians will be neither male nor female.
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  #22  
Old Apr 5, '12, 12:18 am
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Default Re: Why is the Book of Enoch not in the Bible?

One reason it was rejected was because it was pseudopigraphical (falsely attributed to an author). Modern scholars like to claim pretty much every book of the bible is, but the reality is the early church was very careful about it. There are quite a few of books which were rejected solely because they are pseudopigraphical.
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  #23  
Old Apr 5, '12, 11:53 am
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Jerusha Jerusha is offline
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Default Re: Why is the Book of Enoch not in the Bible?

Which leads us into another subject already covered:
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=87983

Amazing how research so often leads me back here.

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  #24  
Old Apr 6, '12, 2:50 am
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GaryTaylor GaryTaylor is online now
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Default Re: Why is the Book of Enoch not in the Bible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JPeter View Post
Inspired authors were known to use uninspired sources to make a point. The fact that the book of Enoch was mentioned in Jude does not make in canon.
Who said anything about being Canon? Wasn't my point.
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  #25  
Old Jun 14, '12, 9:21 pm
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DeepBlueSea DeepBlueSea is offline
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Default Re: Why is the Book of Enoch not in the Bible?

This thread has been silent for a while.

But I would like to point out that Pope Benedict XVI cited the a paragraph from the Book of Enoch during the Easter Vigil Mass 2010 in St. Peter's Basilica.

You can refer to his homily herehttp://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/b16eastvig10.HTM, where the quote from the Book of Enoch was mentioned.

Also, one early Church ecclesiastical writer, Tertullian, tried to explain why the Book of Enoch was not in the Canon. I quote him from his book, "The Apparel of Woman", Book One, Chapter 3:

(1) I am aware that the Book of Henoch which assigns this role to the angels is not accepted because it is not admitted into the Jewish canon. I suppose it is not accepted because they did not think that a book written before the flood could have survived that catastrophe which destroyed the whole world. If that be their reason, let them remember that Noe was a great-grandson of Henoch and a surviver of the deluge. He would have grown up in the family tradition and the name of Henoch would have been a household word and he would surely have remembered the grace that his ancestor enjoyed before God and the reputation of all his preaching, especially since Henoch gave the command to his son Mathusala that the knowledge of his deeds should be passed on to his posterity. Therefore, Noe could surely have succeeded in the trusteeship of his ancestor's preaching because he would not have kept silent about the wonderful providence of God who saved him from destruction as well as in order to enhance the glory of his own house.

(2) Now, supposing that Noe could not have had this knowledge thus directly, there could still be another reason to warrant our assertion of the genuineness of this book: he could have easily rewritten it under the inspiration of the Spirit after it had been destroyed by the violence of the flood, just as, when Jerusalem was destroyed at the hands of the Babylonians, every document of Jewish literature is known to have been restored by Esdras.

(3) But, since Henoch in this same book tells us of our Lord, we must not reject anything at all which really pertains to us. Do we not read that every word of Scripture useful for edification is divinely inspired? As you very well know, it was afterwards rejected by the Jews for the same reason that prompted them to reject almost all the other portions which prophesied about Christ. Now, it is not at all surprising that they refused to accept certain Scriptures which spoke of Him when they were destined not to receive Him when He spoke to them Himself. To all that we may add the fact that we have; a testimony to Henoch in the Epistle of Jude the Apostle.

However, please note that Tertullian is not recognized as Church Father. He had some schism with the Church and left on his own act but the reason for his departure was not recorded. So, take it with a pinch of salt.
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Last edited by DeepBlueSea; Jun 14, '12 at 9:26 pm. Reason: formating
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  #26  
Old Jun 15, '12, 9:07 am
submariner2 submariner2 is offline
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Default Re: Why is the Book of Enoch not in the Bible?

Quote:
DeepBlueSea;9410289]This thread has been silent for a while

However, please note that Tertullian is not recognized as Church Father. He had some schism with the Church and left on his own act but the reason for his departure was not recorded. So, take it with a pinch of salt.
Deep Blue,

Enoch was not included in the acceptable books for christians because it was not accepted by the Jews.

Turtullian left his church to join the Montanists because of the rising power of the bishops to place themselves between believer and God. He could not stand for that and appreciated the spiritual honesty of the Montanists. He wrote about this subject and his objections. Some historians call him "the first protestant."

Rob
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  #27  
Old Jun 15, '12, 2:39 pm
Pythons Pythons is offline
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Default Re: Why is the Book of Enoch not in the Bible?

From what I remember of an Ancient Alien episode I watched...
...The book of Enoch is held high for those who believe in Ancient Alien theory.
...I forget the reason but they talked a lot about that book.
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  #28  
Old Jun 15, '12, 3:45 pm
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Default Re: Why is the Book of Enoch not in the Bible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pythons View Post
From what I remember of an Ancient Alien episode I watched...
...The book of Enoch is held high for those who believe in Ancient Alien theory.
...I forget the reason but they talked a lot about that book.
They (the Ancient Alien people) uses the Book of Enoch as part of their 'proof' for their Ancient Alien theory.
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  #29  
Old Jun 15, '12, 4:24 pm
grandfather grandfather is offline
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Default Re: Why is the Book of Enoch not in the Bible?

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Originally Posted by submariner2 View Post
Deep Blue,

Some historians call him "the first protestant."

Rob
Which historians are they?

Did he believe in sola fide, sola scriptura, OSAS? How many sacraments did he recognize?

I don't know, but would be curious if he is called Protestant he must have some common beliefs with Protestants. Although there is no agreed upon Protestant dogma he surely should have shared something in common with Luther, Calvin, Seventh Day Adventists, Baptists.
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  #30  
Old Jun 15, '12, 9:12 pm
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DeepBlueSea DeepBlueSea is offline
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Default Re: Why is the Book of Enoch not in the Bible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by submariner2 View Post
Deep Blue,

Enoch was not included in the acceptable books for christians because it was not accepted by the Jews.

Turtullian left his church to join the Montanists because of the rising power of the bishops to place themselves between believer and God. He could not stand for that and appreciated the spiritual honesty of the Montanists. He wrote about this subject and his objections. Some historians call him "the first protestant."

Rob
I only read the Book of Enoch for reference and pleasure. The Gospels and the epistles are sufficient meditative materials to last my entire life. I don't need to understand about the watchers or the nephilims to be saved or to become holy.
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