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  #76  
Old Apr 5, '12, 9:44 am
sedonaman sedonaman is offline
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Default Re: Mohammed

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Originally Posted by jakasaki View Post
I'll take an educated guess SedonaMan and say that his answer will be something like:....

That cannot happen.... our prophet Mohamad is the seal of prophets. No other prophet will come after him.
If that isn't avoiding the question, it is saying that Mohammed is a prophet because Mohammed is a prophet.
  #77  
Old Apr 5, '12, 9:48 am
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jakasaki jakasaki is offline
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Default Re: Mohammed

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Originally Posted by sedonaman View Post
If that isn't avoiding the question, it is saying that Mohammed is a prophet because Mohammed is a prophet.
... Mohamad is a prophet because he said so.
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  #78  
Old Apr 5, '12, 10:36 am
jlhargus jlhargus is offline
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Default Re: Mohammed

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Originally Posted by Amoon View Post
In contrary, Prophet Jesus explicitly says that no one should worship him, and that you will be following the doctrines of man, not of God. “But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.”
JL: Amoon you have been misled, by those who have taken your scripture out of context. Jesus NEVER said, no one should worship him. The following is the context for your erroneous interpretation.

[Mark 7:5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him [Jesus], Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands? 6 He [Jesus] answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. ]

Jesus is the Word made flesh God become man. That's how much God loves us He came and gave Himself for all men.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6 - 13.
14 And THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 20:25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. 26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, MY LORD AND MY GOD. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

JL: If Jesus was not God then He would have rebuked Thomas for calling Him God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amoon View Post
If Jesus was god as you claim, he would have mentioned that clearly. Why do you think he didn’t do that? Why he didn’t ask you to worship him? Why did he himself pray to God?
JL: Jesus was God but He came as man to redeem His children.

[Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and TOOK UPON HIM THE FORM OF A SERVANT, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.]
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Tiber swim team 73. Jn14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. (Christ) Lk1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: (Mary) for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. The Ultimate truth is CHRIST who is TRUTH.

Last edited by jlhargus; Apr 5, '12 at 10:55 am.
  #79  
Old Apr 5, '12, 1:10 pm
sedonaman sedonaman is offline
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Default Re: Mohammed

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Originally Posted by Amoon View Post
...If Jesus was god as you claim, he would have mentioned that clearly. Why do you think he didn’t do that? ...
Because He didn't want to be in the same inescapable dilemma that Mohammed is in: a self-proclaimed prophet tooting his own horn. Here are only a few of the problems faced by the followers of Mohammed, only shortly after his time.

So, what is the answer to my question: How does Amoon determine if a prophet is a true prophet? If I said to you, "I am God; worship me", what would you do? Would you worship me because I said it? Why or why not?
  #80  
Old Apr 5, '12, 9:35 pm
Doxiemom Doxiemom is offline
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Default Re: Mohammed

Wasn't "allah" the name of a demon?

That should have been a clue to Mohammend that something ain't right here.
  #81  
Old Apr 6, '12, 12:23 am
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MartinJordan MartinJordan is offline
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Default Re: Mohammed

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Originally Posted by sedonaman View Post
The topic is Mohammed, not Jesus. If you wish to discuss Jesus, start another thread.

Mohammed very obviously also missed this : John 13: 12-14-

12 *Then after he had washed their feet, and taken his garments, being set down again, he said to them: Know you what I have done 13 *You call me Master, and Lord; and you say well, for so I am. 14 *If then I being your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; you all shall wash one another's feet.

So by avoiding even mentioning the great humility our Lord had, Mohammed preached "another Gospel"

MJ
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  #82  
Old Apr 6, '12, 2:05 am
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Amoon Amoon is offline
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Default Re: Mohammed

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Originally Posted by sedonaman View Post
Anyone can stand up and say, "I have a message about [or from] God." How does Amoon determine if that person is being truthful or just spinning dreams?
1. Our greatest proof that Mohammed is the true Prophet of God is the Quran. The Word of God, which no man can create a single verse like it. Do you really believe that Quran is the word of man? Read every single verse in it, and be logical.

2. You know that Prophet Jesus was sent to a specific nation "Jews", and he said that: Mt 15:24 I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

But God says that Prophet Mohammed was sent to all creatures. Quran 21:107. We sent thee not, but as a mercy for all creatures.

3. Islam is the only other religion that believes in Jesus as one of God's mightiest Prophets and the only other religion that believes that Mary is the greatest woman of all nations. Quran 3:42. Behold! The angels said: "O Mary! Allah hath chosen thee and purified thee;―chosen thee above the women of all nations.

If Prophet Mohammed came to delude people as you claim, why would he give so much respect to Jesus and his mother as one cannot be a Muslim if he denies one of them.

4. The teaching of Islam is very logical and can easily be understood and accepted by our nature. To worship God only, the Creator of Heavens and Earth, to pray to God only, to seek forgiveness from God only. For a person to leave Islam and accept Christianity, for example, he has to make a distance between himself and God. Instead of seeking forgiveness from God, he has to seek it now from a priest, and instead of worshipping God alone, he will worship him in three forms, and has to equalize Him with his creations. This is not really appealing for Muslims, because we have a great faith, and God is so close to us that we pray to Him directly, and seek His forgiveness directly.

5. Prophet Mohammed did not bring a new faith that contradicts with the teachings of the other Messengers that God sent before him. His teaching is not different than the teaching of Abraham, Noah, Jacob, David, Moses, and all the Prophets of God who came to guide people to the One True God, including Prophet Jesus of course, who delivered the exact same teaching.
  #83  
Old Apr 6, '12, 3:54 am
Peace of cake Peace of cake is offline
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Default Re: Mohammed

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Originally Posted by jakasaki View Post
... Mohamad is a prophet because he said so.
Isn't that every argument though? St Paul on the road to Damascus claimed a spectacular event that made him an apostle. We believe him to be an apostle based on his claim. It is of course a cicular argument. Basically you either accept it or you don't. Muhammed is clearly an important figure in history and did miraculos things so I can see why people would believe his claims.

I'm not sure what people want fron this thread? We could put forward various attacks on Muhammed's character, but this strikes me as an un-Christian thing to do and just makes people defensive and therefore unable to listen rendering all communication futile. Also if one is going to go down this road then its got to be a decent argument, some are frankly ridiculous!

So what do people want? No matter what you claim there will be a counter claim, valid or not. So shall we continue ad infinitum in vain or instead raise the level of dialogue and stay well clear of childish point scoring?
  #84  
Old Apr 6, '12, 4:27 am
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Darran Darran is offline
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Default Re: Mohammed

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Originally Posted by Peace of cake View Post
Isn't that every argument though? St Paul on the road to Damascus claimed a spectacular event that made him an apostle. We believe him to be an apostle based on his claim. It is of course a cicular argument. Basically you either accept it or you don't. Muhammed is clearly an important figure in history and did miraculos things so I can see why people would believe his claims.

I'm not sure what people want fron this thread? We could put forward various attacks on Muhammed's character, but this strikes me as an un-Christian thing to do and just makes people defensive and therefore unable to listen rendering all communication futile. Also if one is going to go down this road then its got to be a decent argument, some are frankly ridiculous!

So what do people want? No matter what you claim there will be a counter claim, valid or not. So shall we continue ad infinitum in vain or instead raise the level of dialogue and stay well clear of childish point scoring?
Theres always one in these threads isn't there? St Paul is completely off topic to this. Firstly, he wasn't claiming to be a prophet, secondly it wasn't that event that made him an Apostle, it was the other Apostles laying hands on him. That event caused his conversion, that isn't exactly a point to doubt since he was a gospel writer.

Muhammad didn't create a single miracle. The only one he ever did was make a donkey fly apparantly, and the only living person to see this "miracle" was the donkey itself.

You're saying attacking an evil thing is an "unChristian" thing to do? Get your head out mate.
  #85  
Old Apr 6, '12, 5:01 am
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MartinJordan MartinJordan is offline
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Default Re: Mohammed

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amoon View Post
1. Our greatest proof that Mohammed is the true Prophet of God is the Quran. The Word of God, which no man can create a single verse like it. Do you really believe that Quran is the word of man? Read every single verse in it, and be logical.


600 years after Christianity? It's very hard for any Christian even consider reading (not that they won't).


Quote:
2. You know that Prophet Jesus was sent to a specific nation "Jews", and he said that: Mt 15:24 I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Er, that is a Bible quote NOT the Quran

Quote:
But God says that Prophet Mohammed was sent to all creatures. Quran 21:107. We sent thee not, but as a mercy for all creatures.
How does this work? You pray to Mohammad asking him to let us know God's Will?

Quote:
3. Islam is the only other religion that believes in Jesus as one of God's mightiest Prophets and the only other religion that believes that Mary is the greatest woman of all nations. Quran 3:42. Behold! The angels said: "O Mary! Allah hath chosen thee and purified thee;―chosen thee above the women of all nations.
Partly taken from the Bible from Luke 1 (but then again misses the point that Jesus was incarnated by the Holy Spirit ) in Mary's womb. I am aware the Quran later goes on a mistaken tangent that how can anyone accept God having sexual relations with Mary. Clear misunderstanding of the Incarnation.

Quote:
If Prophet Mohammed came to delude people as you claim, why would he give so much respect to Jesus and his mother as one cannot be a Muslim if he denies one of them.
Because maybe he did believe it? But later on there is a disregard for Christians (and I think you know what those are).

Quote:
4. The teaching of Islam is very logical and can easily be understood and accepted by our nature. To worship God only, the Creator of Heavens and Earth, to pray to God only, to seek forgiveness from God only. For a person to leave Islam and accept Christianity, for example, he has to make a distance between himself and God. Instead of seeking forgiveness from God, he has to seek it now from a priest, and instead of worshipping God alone, he will worship him in three forms, and has to equalize Him with his creations. This is not really appealing for Muslims, because we have a great faith, and God is so close to us that we pray to Him directly, and seek His forgiveness directly.
This sounds like a Christian heresy Im sorry to say. And bordering on certain aspects of Protestantism. More importantly a lack of understanding how God can love mankind imo.

Quote:
5. Prophet Mohammed did not bring a new faith that contradicts with the teachings of the other Messengers that God sent before him. His teaching is not different than the teaching of Abraham, Noah, Jacob, David, Moses, and all the Prophets of God who came to guide people to the One True God, including Prophet Jesus of course, who delivered the exact same teaching.
Then how come there is a difference about Abraham's sacrifice of his only son (a term that doesn't mean as it sounds) and Ismael (which means God hears - the cry of Hagar) when it was actually Isaac who was to be sacrificed .Pls state Mohammed teaching on this particular matter about Isaac or Ismael.
MJ
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  #86  
Old Apr 6, '12, 5:14 am
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jakasaki jakasaki is offline
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Default Re: Mohammed

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Originally Posted by Peace of cake View Post

Muhammed is clearly an important figure in history and did miraculos things
Really..? Please explain the bold part.
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  #87  
Old Apr 6, '12, 9:20 am
sedonaman sedonaman is offline
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Default Re: Mohammed

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Originally Posted by Amoon View Post
1. Our greatest proof that Mohammed is the true Prophet of God is the Quran. The Word of God, which no man can create a single verse like it. Do you really believe that Quran is the word of man? Read every single verse in it, and be logical.
There is no logic to the Qur'an, at least not unitary logic. The logic of the Qur'an is dualistic, that is, two mutually exclusive statements can be true at the same time. Man has actually created scriptures better than the Qur'an: The Iliad is a good example. It is even longer than the Qur'an. But literary eloquence is not proof of divine origin. If it was, then the gods mentioned in the Iliad would be real gods, which we know they are not. Personally, I believe the Qur'an is the word of Satan.

Quote:
2. You know that Prophet Jesus was sent to a specific nation "Jews", and he said that: Mt 15:24 I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
The topic is Mohammed.

Quote:
But God says that Prophet Mohammed was sent to all creatures. Quran 21:107. We sent thee not, but as a mercy for all creatures.
And his message is in a language that only a few understand. Again, this presupposes that Mohammed was a prophet, which I reject. But, let’s pull that thread. Who told you that Mohammed was a prophet? Your parents? Who told them? Their parents? Who told your parents’ parents? We can extend this all the way back to the first person to declare Mohammed to be a prophet, and that person is none other than Mohammed himself. One of the main ways that Mohammed attempted to support his validity was to draw similarities between those who rejected him and those who rejected previous apostles sent by God. But what kind of proof is that? No proof, for everyone has experienced rejection at one time or other. Therefore, you can take any two people and draw similarities between them.

Mohammed tries to get around his validation problem by claiming that the Bible had become “corrupt” down through time, although he does not show what the supposed “corruption” is. If we accept this assertion, a Qur’anic passage such as, “Kill the unbeliever wherever you find him” was the original message from God that had gotten “corrupted” to “Love your neighbor as yourself” which had to be "corrected" back to, “Kill the unbeliever wherever you find him.” The former was a corruption by men to control the people. This doesn’t make any sense, and it’s certainly not logical.

So the question still remains unanswered: how do you determine if someone is a true prophet or not? You can’t just take his word for it.

Quote:
3. Islam is the only other religion that believes in Jesus as one of God's mightiest Prophets and the only other religion that believes that Mary is the greatest woman of all nations. ...
Mormons believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet. Does that make him one? You can believe whatever you want, but belief is not proof.

Quote:
If Prophet Mohammed came to delude people as you claim, why would he give so much respect to Jesus and his mother as one cannot be a Muslim if he denies one of them.[?]
To try to get Christians to accept him as a prophet.

Quote:
4. The teaching of Islam is very logical and can easily be understood and accepted by our nature. ...
The only assertion here is that Islam is true; it is not proof of anything.

Quote:
5. Prophet Mohammed did not bring a new faith that contradicts with the teachings of the other Messengers that God sent before him. His teaching is not different than [sic] the teaching of Abraham, Noah, Jacob, David, Moses, and all the Prophets of God who came to guide people to the One True God, including Prophet Jesus of course, who delivered the exact same teaching.
OK. Let’s now pull this thread. Muslims claim that everyone was born a Muslim, and those who are not today got tricked into leaving the faith. [That’s why converts are greeted with, “Welcome back.”] This falling away is supposedly caused by the “corruption” of the original scriptures, by men so that they could control the people. Muslims consider the Old and New Testaments to be true only so far as they agree with Islam. The rest is a “corruption”. So it is fair to conclude that a passage from the Old or New Testament that is not a corruption should also be in the Qur’an. Where in the Qur’an are Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount and the Lord’s Prayer? There are only two possible answers to this: 1) they are corruptions, so they were left out; 2) they are not corruptions, and the Islamic claim that “His [Mohammed’s] teaching is not different than the teaching of Abraham, Noah, Jacob, David, Moses, and all the Prophets of God who came to guide people to the One True God, including Prophet Jesus of course, who delivered the exact same teaching” did “contradict with the teachings of the other Messengers that God sent before him” and is therefore false. You can argue that they are corruptions, but that would require a rejection of the Beatitudes, ideals that focus on love and humility rather than force and exaction. They echo the highest ideals of the teachings of Jesus on mercy, spirituality, and compassion. Is "the religion of peace" prepared to argue against those?

What about the Lord’s prayer, a prayer to the One True God that you claim to worship [the Trinity is not mentioned in it] and a prayer that praises Him and asks Him for our physical and spiritual needs? Is Islam ready to argue that this prayer is also a corruption?

Islam is a mile wide but only a millimeter deep. To show it is not true, one need only ask a few probing questions, and it won’t take many before the Islamic scholar begins to contradict himself, as demonstrated in “St. John of Damascus’ Critique of Islam” http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspx .
  #88  
Old Apr 6, '12, 12:01 pm
Peace of cake Peace of cake is offline
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Default Re: Mohammed

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Originally Posted by Darran View Post
Theres always one in these threads isn't there? St Paul is completely off topic to this. Firstly, he wasn't claiming to be a prophet, secondly it wasn't that event that made him an Apostle, it was the other Apostles laying hands on him. That event caused his conversion, that isn't exactly a point to doubt since he was a gospel writer.

Muhammad didn't create a single miracle. The only one he ever did was make a donkey fly apparantly, and the only living person to see this "miracle" was the donkey itself.

You're saying attacking an evil thing is an "unChristian" thing to do? Get your head out mate.
The mention of St Paul is completely relevant since his being an apostle is due to Christ commanding him to spread the "good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ." The laying of hands was his acceptance by the other apostles, not his being an apostle. So the claim was accepted by those that werent witness. Of course the apostles tested the claim and were convinced. Likewise Muhammed's claim was accepted by people because they were convinced. One example would be the many miracles he brought, in thier tradition, such as splitting the moon or feeding children milk from his fingers and so on (I know of no such story of flying donkies, please elaborate). Or maybe people were convinced by the miracle of his leadership to bring order to Arabia, a chaotic backwater that had never known government.
Doubt the Church agrees with your definition of evil, but this is besides the point. My argument is the method used. If your assertions are foolish and simplistic, would calling you an idiot make you more inclined to my argument? Clearly calling to the truth requires wisdom and fine character and mocking another's religion will not incline them to the truth... especially when the claims are ill thought out and show a lack of really understanding the subject matter.
Lets all - myself incuded - raise our argument and we will see the rewards
  #89  
Old Apr 6, '12, 6:40 pm
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Darran Darran is offline
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Default Re: Mohammed

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Originally Posted by Peace of cake View Post
The mention of St Paul is completely relevant since his being an apostle is due to Christ commanding him to spread the "good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ." The laying of hands was his acceptance by the other apostles, not his being an apostle. So the claim was accepted by those that werent witness. Of course the apostles tested the claim and were convinced. Likewise Muhammed's claim was accepted by people because they were convinced. One example would be the many miracles he brought, in thier tradition, such as splitting the moon or feeding children milk from his fingers and so on (I know of no such story of flying donkies, please elaborate). Or maybe people were convinced by the miracle of his leadership to bring order to Arabia, a chaotic backwater that had never known government.
Doubt the Church agrees with your definition of evil, but this is besides the point. My argument is the method used. If your assertions are foolish and simplistic, would calling you an idiot make you more inclined to my argument? Clearly calling to the truth requires wisdom and fine character and mocking another's religion will not incline them to the truth... especially when the claims are ill thought out and show a lack of really understanding the subject matter.
Lets all - myself incuded - raise our argument and we will see the rewards
It isn't error to be angry at a satanist such as muhammad. It wouldn't be an error in Iran, neither would it (God forbid!) be a problem on a Catholic forum. Truth is truth nomatter how upset someone might get at hearing it. That is, assuming that every Catholic on this thread were speaking with a sword and an iron rod, but they weren't.

St Paul isn't similar at all. His conversion has no reason to be doubted, what caused him to convert is irrelevant. Besides, even if you wanted to play it that way, Ananias vision confirmed Pauls conversion, and his restoration to sight confirmed the miracle. His ordination DID come from the Apostles, I don't see how any Catholic could deny this.
  #90  
Old Apr 6, '12, 7:51 pm
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Armyvet007 Armyvet007 is offline
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Default Re: Mohammed

[quote=Darran;9153175]It isn't error to be angry at a satanist such as muhammad. QUOTE]

You make a specific claim against Muhammad. A claim that, as far as I know, is not supported by the Church; let alone provable to any degree of certainty. Such claims do nothing to further our [Catholic] efforts in showing Muslims the errors within their faith and bring them into the Church. There are enough provable errors within the Islamic faith that we do not need to lie/make unreasoned assumptions/false accusations about it or Muhammad.
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