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  #46  
Old Apr 7, '12, 4:22 pm
AngryAtheist8 AngryAtheist8 is offline
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Default Re: Pope reaffirms ban on women priests

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Originally Posted by Scoobyshme View Post
Why won't these renegades just give up? They're like little children. "Why can't we have women priests? PLEASE? PRETTY PLEASE? I really want women priests!" "No, son. We cannot have women priests. Ever. End of subject." "But, WHY? WHY? WHY can't we have women priests? We really, really, really, really want women priests! We do! We really do!" "No! Now I've told you already. We're never going to have women priests. Now if you keep bringing this up after I've told you a thousand times, I'm going to have to discipline you and send you to your room!"
I don't know
I think they would be better off (and eveyone would be happier) if they simply left Catholicism for a more female friendly religion.
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  #47  
Old Apr 7, '12, 4:26 pm
AngryAtheist8 AngryAtheist8 is offline
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Default Re: Pope reaffirms ban on women priests

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Originally Posted by Not Sure View Post
It's like saying the Pope banned men from having babies.
A man cannot possibly be pregnant, and a woman cannot possibly be a priest
Congratulations, that's one of the most ethnocentric things I have heard all month

No its NOT like the Pope banning men from having babies.
Women have always had babies.
But Catholicism (and therefore the Catholic priesthood) is about 2 thousand years old at most. Moreover other religions have had female priests, so we know its possible.
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  #48  
Old Apr 7, '12, 4:32 pm
AngryAtheist8 AngryAtheist8 is offline
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Default Re: Pope reaffirms ban on women priests

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Originally Posted by DWGarvin View Post


And let us not forget that men cannot be nuns.
Why would they want to though?
Spiritual power and privilege isn't attributed to nuns (or any group of female religious in the Catholic Church) the way that it is to priests. Nuns (and all other female religious) aren't even members of the Catholic hierarchy.

What could an average Catholic nun do that a Catholic male monk, priest, etc. couldn't do?
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  #49  
Old Apr 7, '12, 4:49 pm
AngryAtheist8 AngryAtheist8 is offline
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Default Re: Pope reaffirms ban on women priests

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Originally Posted by Marybeloved View Post
The teaching is all about obedience to the will of Christ. He did not want women priests- period. That's why the Church says she has no authority to ordain them- the authority comes from Christ and goes where he wants, not where anyone else thinks it should.

As you pointed out, Christ had many women followers. In fact, many of them were much more loyal to him and faithful at the dark hour unlike the men who deserted, denied and betrayed him. Yet he made none of these holy women priests. None were invited to the last supper where the priest-hood was instituted (the priesthood is all about the Eucharist- A sacrifice. It's the body and blood of Christ offered to the Father for us, and then to us as food). Not even the Holiest person in Catholicism after Christ (His Mother) was there.

Any one who insists on women priests is telling the CC (Catholic Church) that Christ did not know what he was doing, and neither did his Apostles. Seeing as the CC looks to Christ as her very Lord and God, Master, King and Savior- That notion simply will not fly with her. We do what Christ wanted and wants, not what our modern values suggest is "fair" and equal, not what we think will make women "happy" and feel equal. The Church is a kingdom- A theocratic one. She is all about following the will of One man alone- Christ. If a person doesn't like it, they should seek membership in someone else's territory. The CC is Christ's domain.
Well put.
From a certain perspective Jesus/God is the ultimate patriarch/monarch, so Feminists (and perhaps women in general) shouldn't expect much sympathy or understanding from those who embrace this worldview.
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  #50  
Old Apr 7, '12, 5:22 pm
jwinch2 jwinch2 is offline
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Default Re: Pope reaffirms ban on women priests

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Originally Posted by heaintheavy View Post
Because.
In time, we see that some rules are made to be broken...or at least, revised.
This is one of them.
But I guess it's just not time....yet.
It makes no sense not to have women as priests. Being a priest is something spiritual and a calling of the soul, it is not linked to specific male sex organs, as childbirth is.
Jesus himself, we are told, did not take part in any sexual activity involving his gender-specific organs.
If several women--including Mary Magdalene, Jesus' favorite--could hang out and move around with the apostles/disciples and help preach, why can't women do so today?
It is unfortunate that mortal men--who exactly was this?--interpreted words collected in the Christian canon centuries after Jesus died to mean that women cannot be priests.
Very much so.
I hope that our granddaughters and their daughters after that will live in a time that is less rigid.
You should really listen to this. Your profile does not say if you are Catholic or not. If you are, then I hope you will consider learning your faith more completely than you have currently.

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Originally Posted by Suudy View Post
Peter Kreeft has a spectacularly good talk on this topic.

http://www.peterkreeft.com/audio/09_priestesses.htm
Dr. Kreeft is excellent on the subject. He gives a similar talk in the 2009 Word of God Conference as well.

http://www.catholicproductions.com/s.../wog_2009.html
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  #51  
Old Apr 7, '12, 7:44 pm
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Default Re: Pope reaffirms ban on women priests

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Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8 View Post
Why would they want to though?
Spiritual power and privilege isn't attributed to nuns (or any group of female religious in the Catholic Church) the way that it is to priests. Nuns (and all other female religious) aren't even members of the Catholic hierarchy.
See, your problem is that you're associating priests just with power and privilege. Priest are not about power and privilege, any guy who becomes a priest for power is doing it for the wrong reason. What you're doing is applying a secular attitude to religious life. Religious life is not about power.

Applying that same attitude, we mine as well say that Hillary Clinton totally failed at life because she only became Secretary of State and never President. I would call her career a great success. What about career bureaucrat who become Under-Secretaries, are they worth less then the Secretary because they don't have a place in the Line of Succession to the Presidency?

Now, I'm going to put on my mind-reader hat (and hopefully you're not wearing your tin-foil one ) and guess you're going to say "it's not the same because they could have gone into that position". That's not the point I'm trying to make. What I'm saying is that positions of power is not what the Church is about.

When Cardinals go into a conclave, I'm betting the vast majority of them are praying "Dear God, please don't pick me!". Being a priest or a religious is about living a life of service, not about power.

Back to the issue of power, many theologians in this day and age are lay men and women. St. Catherine of Sienna and St. Teresa of Ávila are both Doctors of the Church, which is a recognition of great service to the Church (either theological or practical). St. Catherine convinced the Pope to move back to Rome from France. St. Teresa reformed the Carmelite Order, which consists of both men and women. St. Francis originally wrote the Rule for St. Clair's nuns (Poor Clair nuns), and she took the Rule and kicked the men out of it (Franciscans were originally to take care of the Poor Clairs I believe or something like that, and she took that out). Look me in the eye again and tell me now that women have no power.

I know a few women who have entered religious life, and I have the utmost respect for them. They are called to a certain type of life (contemplative prayer, serving the poor, etc), and that is why they enter religious life. Not for power and glory.

If you want power and glory, become a politician (so you can start by being a lawyer). Nobody who is truly out to serve God in the Church is out for power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8 View Post
What could an average Catholic nun do that a Catholic male monk, priest, etc. couldn't do?
A nun can do everything that a non-ordained monk can do (we often say that a monk is a male nun because people know nuns better than monks).

What this view is expressing though at it's heart is that all people can be replaced by any other person; all people are inter-exchangeable. If I kill you today, we can take some other well-trained person in whatever field you're in and put them in your job and call it a day. Your significant other can (assuming you have one) can move onto the next candidate and everything will be fine at home.

Obviously that's ridicules. We can't just replace 1 person for another because everyone is different. We have different life experiences and knowledges. You are uniquely you.

It's not that they can't do the work (preaching or whatever it is), it's that only men are called to share in the Priesthood of Jesus Christ. That's how Christ implemented it starting with the Aaronic Priesthood in the Old Testament, with the Levites who served the priests, and with his chosen Apostles (the 12). Only men can be Persona Christi, in the person of Christ. The priesthood is intimately connected with the traits of Maleness; it's why God is identified as Father. The priest gives the gifts (Sacraments) to the faithful, so they must be gift-givers: men.

Maleness is associated with the initiation of the gift or the giving of the gift. Where does that come from? Biology, specifically sex. In the sexual act, the man gives the gift (the sperm) and the women receives the gift. That is biological, there's nothing we can do to change that. There are even arguments I've heard that a man who is a priest should ordinarily be able to perform sexually (can't be impotent or sterile).

Please excuse the ranting, I got going a little bit there.
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  #52  
Old Apr 8, '12, 1:36 am
Elizabeth502 Elizabeth502 is offline
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Default Re: Pope reaffirms ban on women priests

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8 View Post
From a certain perspective Jesus/God is the ultimate patriarch/monarch, so Feminists (and perhaps women in general) shouldn't expect much sympathy or understanding from those who embrace this worldview.
As someone who was virtually unique for his day in demonstrated compassion for women, respect for them, as well as ("scandalous") fellowship with women, including encouraging women to be among his disciples (which we know from history they were, abundantly), Jesus was verifiably not anti-female.

With Divine wisdom, He knew that the spiritual and practical roles women played then and play now do not require the ministerial priesthood itself. One of the paradoxes of Christian life is that, while the priesthood is "objectively" speaking a "superior" state, that status does not confer in itself any superior spiritual state for the man who has received the sacrament of Holy Orders. There are millions of women -- both lay and religious -- who are probably holier (closer to God) than possibly thousands of priests, due to the practice of virtue. And honest, aware priests would be the first to acknowledge that.

The Christian God is not a deity of power and privilege, but a God who values humility in every man and every woman, regardless of state in life. Those who follow that path are those most pleasing to God, whatever functions or roles they play in and outside of the Church. It's a mistake to look upon the priesthood as one looks upon the presidency, the Cabinet, the Congress -- and in general to look upon the Christian journey as a path to earthly power instead of a path to sublimate one's own wish to exercise power & to dominate. Any man or woman who views the Catholic priesthood as an opportunity for "power" has completely lost the message of the gospel and does not understand the meaning of spiritual power.

Further, the majority of Catholic priests never make it to the rank of bishop or Cardinal, which is the only place to exercise "power" in any practical sense in the ecclesial body. The typical parish priest has amazingly little power. His power is to celebrate the sacraments, and to have some opportunity (less so in modern times with priesthood shortages) to avail himself of spiritual aids to become closer to God.

Women are enormously influential in the Church. They essentially run most parishes and are in charge of most catechesis. They often lead retreats, which is where those attending contemplate & receive spiritual power. Religious women, in Orders, make use of prayer & fidelity to their vows to exert all kinds of power (influence) in positive ways in the lives of others -- those known & unknown to them. Many religious women do things like start television networks (), draw major world attention to the conditions of the poor in Third World countires -- thus becoming a force for change. There are women activitists (lay & religious) in the Church who have exerted more power for change & shown more leadership than many men in the Church, who, though faithful, have no charism for leadership and have chosen "only" to be simple parish priests, ministering to their local flock.

Among those who misunderstand the above are those not acquainted with the Catholic faith -- and shockingly so, those Catholic women who should be most acquainted with their Catholic faith but thoroughly misunderstand the significance & limitations of the ministerial priesthood -- not to mention what holiness does and does not mean. It is not achieved through a title or a specific role: all the great Saints have shown us that & written about that.
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  #53  
Old Apr 8, '12, 2:05 am
nordskoven nordskoven is offline
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Default "Sin of Adam" atoned for by males only.

It's called the "Sin of Adam" not the "Sin of Adam & Eve." Adam betrayed his office and Adam brought sin and death into the world after he at of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil. Only males can atone for the "Sin of Adam" and did so from the first with Cain and Abel offering sacrifice. A male priesthood is carrying the sin guilt, the opprobrium of Original Sin. Let's not get into the European model of seeing a priest as part of the privileged elite. A priest is a servant, and Peter is the "Servant of Servants." Women are not resposible for atoning for the "Sin of Adam." Woman, and through her, her Seed, were given a separate grant of power: war against Lucifer and his seed. Everybody has a job. Let's get crackin'
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  #54  
Old Apr 8, '12, 2:34 am
Lochias Lochias is offline
 
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Default Re: Pope reaffirms ban on women priests

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elizabeth502 View Post
As someone who was virtually unique for his day in demonstrated compassion for women, respect for them, as well as ("scandalous") fellowship with women, including encouraging women to be among his disciples (which we know from history they were, abundantly), Jesus was verifiably not anti-female.

With Divine wisdom, He knew that the spiritual and practical roles women played then and play now do not require the ministerial priesthood itself. One of the paradoxes of Christian life is that, while the priesthood is "objectively" speaking a "superior" state, that status does not confer in itself any superior spiritual state for the man who has received the sacrament of Holy Orders. There are millions of women -- both lay and religious -- who are probably holier (closer to God) than possibly thousands of priests, due to the practice of virtue. And honest, aware priests would be the first to acknowledge that.

The Christian God is not a deity of power and privilege, but a God who values humility in every man and every woman, regardless of state in life. Those who follow that path are those most pleasing to God, whatever functions or roles they play in and outside of the Church. It's a mistake to look upon the priesthood as one looks upon the presidency, the Cabinet, the Congress -- and in general to look upon the Christian journey as a path to earthly power instead of a path to sublimate one's own wish to exercise power & to dominate. Any man or woman who views the Catholic priesthood as an opportunity for "power" has completely lost the message of the gospel and does not understand the meaning of spiritual power.

Further, the majority of Catholic priests never make it to the rank of bishop or Cardinal, which is the only place to exercise "power" in any practical sense in the ecclesial body. The typical parish priest has amazingly little power. His power is to celebrate the sacraments, and to have some opportunity (less so in modern times with priesthood shortages) to avail himself of spiritual aids to become closer to God.

Women are enormously influential in the Church. They essentially run most parishes and are in charge of most catechesis. They often lead retreats, which is where those attending contemplate & receive spiritual power. Religious women, in Orders, make use of prayer & fidelity to their vows to exert all kinds of power (influence) in positive ways in the lives of others -- those known & unknown to them. Many religious women do things like start television networks (), draw major world attention to the conditions of the poor in Third World countires -- thus becoming a force for change. There are women activitists (lay & religious) in the Church who have exerted more power for change & shown more leadership than many men in the Church, who, though faithful, have no charism for leadership and have chosen "only" to be simple parish priests, ministering to their local flock.

Among those who misunderstand the above are those not acquainted with the Catholic faith -- and shockingly so, those Catholic women who should be most acquainted with their Catholic faith but thoroughly misunderstand the significance & limitations of the ministerial priesthood -- not to mention what holiness does and does not mean. It is not achieved through a title or a specific role: all the great Saints have shown us that & written about that.
Quoted for freaking truth. If the nay-sayers won't listen to this, then they just don't feel like listening at all. Excellent post.
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  #55  
Old Apr 8, '12, 3:30 am
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puppypatrol puppypatrol is offline
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Default Re: Pope reaffirms ban on women priests

Quote:
Originally Posted by heaintheavy View Post
Because.
In time, we see that some rules are made to be broken...or at least, revised.
This is one of them.
But I guess it's just not time....yet.
It makes no sense not to have women as priests. Being a priest is something spiritual and a calling of the soul, it is not linked to specific male sex organs, as childbirth is.
Jesus himself, we are told, did not take part in any sexual activity involving his gender-specific organs.
If several women--including Mary Magdalene, Jesus' favorite--could hang out and move around with the apostles/disciples and help preach, why can't women do so today?
It is unfortunate that mortal men--who exactly was this?--interpreted words collected in the Christian canon centuries after Jesus died to mean that women cannot be priests.
Very much so.
I hope that our granddaughters and their daughters after that will live in a time that is less rigid.
First of all, Mary Magdalene loved Jesus, no where does it say that she was Jesus' favorite. It also doesn't say anywhere that women can't be teachers of the faith (in fact that is our primary job as women and as mothers, etc...), lead bible studies, evangelize, participate in apologetics, and much more. We have enough responsibilities to the Church and to future generations and, from my experience, many of the women who demand women's ordination can't or won't even perform the duties we have been given. Why on earth would Christ have given women more? By not giving us women priest, Christ has given us more freedom, freedom to travel to spread the Gospel, by our own work and by that of the children we pass our faith on to.

Our granddaughters and their daughters will not see a time that is less rigid. It will only get more so because of the evil that is being done in the name of change and progress. We as women have the power to change the immoral thinking of the secular world by properly catechise our future generations, not conforming ourselves to the secular world. The Catholic Church, with the Magisterium, are simply trying to stay true to what Christ started, and will stay true to it to the end.

Actually, if most women actually knew what our Priests do, they would run the other way.
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  #56  
Old Apr 8, '12, 8:14 am
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Default Re: Pope reaffirms ban on women priests

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Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8 View Post
Well put.
From a certain perspective Jesus/God is the ultimate patriarch/monarch, so Feminists (and perhaps women in general) shouldn't expect much sympathy or understanding from those who embrace this worldview.
Well, only if you mean Feminists in the sense of militant, anti-men, bra-burning feminists.

If you mean Feminists as the Holy Father proclaims, then then the above comment is misguided.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/jo...itatem_en.html
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  #57  
Old Apr 8, '12, 8:35 am
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Default Re: Pope reaffirms ban on women priests

I can't imagine this is even debated by people. I feel that is the end result of poor spiritual education on the part of the community of the church, in regards to the different roles of men and woman. A woman cant' be a priest anymore then what a man can have a baby.
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  #58  
Old Apr 8, '12, 8:38 am
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Default Re: Pope reaffirms ban on women priests

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I can't imagine this is even debated by people. I feel that is the end result of poor spiritual education on the part of the community of the church, in regards to the different roles of men and woman. A woman cant' be a priest anymore then what a man can have a baby.
There's nothing wrong with discussion, Jessup.
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  #59  
Old Apr 8, '12, 9:47 am
AngryAtheist8 AngryAtheist8 is offline
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Default Re: Pope reaffirms ban on women priests

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Originally Posted by Jessup View Post
I can't imagine this is even debated by people. I feel that is the end result of poor spiritual education on the part of the community of the church, in regards to the different roles of men and woman. A woman cant' be a priest anymore then what a man can have a baby.
As I said before, I think that everyone would be happier and better off if these women and their supporters simply left the Church
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  #60  
Old Apr 8, '12, 9:50 am
AngryAtheist8 AngryAtheist8 is offline
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Default Re: "Sin of Adam" atoned for by males only.

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Originally Posted by nordskoven View Post
It's called the "Sin of Adam" not the "Sin of Adam & Eve." Adam betrayed his office and Adam brought sin and death into the world after he at of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil. Only males can atone for the "Sin of Adam" and did so from the first with Cain and Abel offering sacrifice. A male priesthood is carrying the sin guilt, the opprobrium of Original Sin. Let's not get into the European model of seeing a priest as part of the privileged elite. A priest is a servant, and Peter is the "Servant of Servants." Women are not resposible for atoning for the "Sin of Adam." Woman, and through her, her Seed, were given a separate grant of power: war against Lucifer and his seed. Everybody has a job. Let's get crackin'
But that's the thing.
Oftentimes in Europe (and this is still the case in much of Latin America) the priesthood WAS a privileged elite.
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