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  #31  
Old Apr 10, '12, 12:10 pm
markomalley markomalley is offline
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Default Re: 'Faithful Citizenship' Gives Catholics a Chance to Seek the Common Good

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Olszewski View Post
You may think that, but I see them as individual bishops responding as individuals to the non-Magisterial "Faithful Citizenship." Either way, their opinion is worthy of respect.
The reason I posted the quote from Apostolos Suos was to make certain everybody can SEE that it is non-magisterial.

Having said that, people should read the document and evaluate it using their prudential judgment. The one thing I want to avoid is people reading it and accepting it based on a religious submission of intellect and will (or bashing others because they don't)
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Nothing emboldens the wicked so greatly as the lack of courage on the part of the good -- Pope Leo XIII

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  #32  
Old Apr 10, '12, 12:12 pm
_Abyssinia _Abyssinia is offline
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Default Re: 'Faithful Citizenship' Gives Catholics a Chance to Seek the Common Good

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Olszewski View Post
So are we to understand that these bishops are making an infallible declaration about a document that isn't infallible?

...
But they are talking generally about abortion and it is in agreement with what Pope Benedict has taught.

I can question 'Faithful Citizenship' because it is not an infallible, Magisterial document.

Apostolic Exhortation Sacramentum Caritatis is an infallible Magisterial document and it states that a 'non negotiable' to be of central concern to a Christian in politics is 'respect for human life, its defence from conception to natural death....'
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  #33  
Old Apr 10, '12, 12:19 pm
_Abyssinia _Abyssinia is offline
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Default Re: 'Faithful Citizenship' Gives Catholics a Chance to Seek the Common Good

Quote:
Originally Posted by rlg94086 View Post
34. Catholics often face difficult choices about how to vote. This is why it is so important to vote according to a well-formed conscience that perceives the proper relationship among moral goods. A Catholic cannot vote for a candidate who takes a position in favor of an intrinsic evil, such as abortion or racism, if the voter's intent is to support that position. In such cases a Catholic would be guilty of formal cooperation in grave evil. At the same time, a voter should not use a candidate's opposition to an intrinsic evil to justify indifference or inattentiveness to other important moral issues involving human life and dignity.

35. There may be times when a Catholic who rejects a candidate's unacceptable position may decide to vote for that candidate for other morally grave reasons. Voting in this way would be permissible only for truly grave moral reasons, not to advance narrow interests or partisan preferences or to ignore a fundamental
moral evil
.
The only moral possibilities for a Catholic to be able to vote in good conscience for a candidate who supports this intrinsic evil are the following:
a. If both candidates running for office support abortion or "abortion rights," a Catholic would be forced to then look at the other important issues and through their vote try to limit the evil done; or,

b. If another intrinsic evil outweighs the evil of abortion. While this is sound moral reasoning, there are no "truly grave moral" or "proportionate" reasons, singularly or combined, that could outweigh the millions of innocent human lives that are directly killed by legal abortion each year.
To vote for a candidate who supports the intrinsic evil of abortion or "abortion rights" when there is a morally acceptable alternative would be to cooperate in the evil – and, therefore, morally impermissible.
http://prolifedallas.org/pages/Joint_Statement

Quote:
36. When all candidates hold a position in favor of an intrinsic evil, the conscientious voter faces a dilemma. The voter may decide to take the extraordinary step of not voting for any candidate or, after careful deliberation, may decide to vote for the candidate deemed less likely to advance such a morally flawed position and more likely to pursue other authentic human goods.
Quote:
Note: the voter faces a dilemma when ALL candidates hold a position in favor of an intrinsic evil. That would imply there is no dilemma when choosing between two candidates and only one of them holds a position in favor of an intrinsic evil.
If all the candidates support abortion you have to choose the letter of two evils, if you have candidate A who supports unrestricted abortion, and candidate B who is in favor of restricted abortion rights in case of rape or incest you would vote for candidate B.
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  #34  
Old Apr 10, '12, 12:21 pm
rlg94086 rlg94086 is offline
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Default Re: 'Faithful Citizenship' Gives Catholics a Chance to Seek the Common Good

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Abyssinia View Post
The only moral possibilities for a Catholic to be able to vote in good conscience for a candidate who supports this intrinsic evil are the following:
a. If both candidates running for office support abortion or "abortion rights," a Catholic would be forced to then look at the other important issues and through their vote try to limit the evil done; or,

b. If another intrinsic evil outweighs the evil of abortion. While this is sound moral reasoning, there are no "truly grave moral" or "proportionate" reasons, singularly or combined, that could outweigh the millions of innocent human lives that are directly killed by legal abortion each year.
To vote for a candidate who supports the intrinsic evil of abortion or "abortion rights" when there is a morally acceptable alternative would be to cooperate in the evil – and, therefore, morally impermissible.
http://prolifedallas.org/pages/Joint_Statement





If all the candidates support abortion you have to choose the letter of two evils, if you have candidate A who supports unrestricted abortion, and candidate B who is in favor of restricted abortion rights in case of rape or incest you would vote for candidate B.
Exactly. Faithful Citizenship doesn't say anything contrary to what you posted. The problem is in the way that Leftist politicos read it.
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  #35  
Old Apr 10, '12, 12:28 pm
_Abyssinia _Abyssinia is offline
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Default Re: 'Faithful Citizenship' Gives Catholics a Chance to Seek the Common Good

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Originally Posted by rlg94086 View Post
Exactly. Faithful Citizenship doesn't say anything contrary to what you posted. The problem is in the way that Leftist politicos read it.
True, but 'Faithful Citizenship' has given many license to read it way, because but it is not clear enough, it provides loopholes for Catholics to excuse themselves for voting a pro abortion candidate, these loopholes appear nowhere in actual Catholic Teaching, apart from in this non-Magisterial document.

It is also interesting that some seem to take more seriously a non-Magisterial document over Magisterial documents like the Gospel of Life and Apostolic Exhortation Sacramentum Caritatis when it comes to the issue of abortion and politics.
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  #36  
Old Apr 10, '12, 12:28 pm
Rich Olszewski Rich Olszewski is offline
 
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Default Re: 'Faithful Citizenship' Gives Catholics a Chance to Seek the Common Good

Quote:
Originally Posted by rlg94086 View Post
Exactly. Faithful Citizenship doesn't say anything contrary to what you posted. The problem is in the way that Leftist politicos read it.
I, a leftist, don't have to read it as I shall pass on both Obama and Romney. For those who intend to vote for President, it's worth examining.
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  #37  
Old Apr 10, '12, 12:47 pm
rlg94086 rlg94086 is offline
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Default Re: 'Faithful Citizenship' Gives Catholics a Chance to Seek the Common Good

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Abyssinia View Post
True, but 'Faithful Citizenship' has given many license to read it way, because but it is not clear enough, it provides loopholes for Catholics to excuse themselves for voting a pro abortion candidate, these loopholes appear nowhere in actual Catholic Teaching, apart from in this non-Magisterial document.
It does not "provide loopholes." Individual Catholics who don't read the document clearly create "loopholes" due to their misunderstanding of what it says. I challenge you to find anything in Faithful Citizenship that states a "loophole" that is contrary to magisterial teaching.

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Abyssinia View Post
It is also interesting that some seem to take more seriously a non-Magisterial document over Magisterial documents like the Gospel of Life and Apostolic Exhortation Sacramentum Caritatis when it comes to the issue of abortion and politics.
This is true. Those who are advancing their narrow, leftist political interests and ignoring intrinsic evil will generally distort any Church document or teaching to do so.
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  #38  
Old Apr 10, '12, 12:48 pm
rlg94086 rlg94086 is offline
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Default Re: 'Faithful Citizenship' Gives Catholics a Chance to Seek the Common Good

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Olszewski View Post
I, a leftist, don't have to read it as I shall pass on both Obama and Romney. For those who intend to vote for President, it's worth examining.
Sure. That is a valid option, of course.
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  #39  
Old Apr 10, '12, 2:13 pm
_Abyssinia _Abyssinia is offline
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Default Re: 'Faithful Citizenship' Gives Catholics a Chance to Seek the Common Good

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Originally Posted by rlg94086 View Post
It does not "provide loopholes." Individual Catholics who don't read the document clearly create "loopholes" due to their misunderstanding of what it says. I challenge you to find anything in Faithful Citizenship that states a "loophole" that is contrary to magisterial teaching.
Loopholes for Catholics to vote for a pro abortion politician if they feel there is a ''morally grave'' reason (35), if they do not intend to support a position (34), or if if a political candidate will pursue 'authentic human goods' rather than 'morally-flawed' position he/she holds (36).

These loopholes exist nowhere in Catholic teaching except in this non-Magisterial document 'Faithful Citizenship.'

You and me may interpret the paragraphs 34-37 differently, but the Catholic who already has sympathies for a pro abortion candidate like Barack Obama will not. They will not look deeper for clarifications in to what these paragraphs mean, they will just take it as it looks and think it excuses them to vote for a pro abortion candidate - when Catholic teaching does not allow it.

Quote:
This is true. Those who are advancing their narrow, leftist political interests and ignoring intrinsic evil will generally distort any Church document or teaching to do so.
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  #40  
Old Apr 10, '12, 2:17 pm
rlg94086 rlg94086 is offline
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Default Re: 'Faithful Citizenship' Gives Catholics a Chance to Seek the Common Good

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Abyssinia View Post
Loopholes for Catholics to vote for a pro abortion politician if they feel there is a ''morally grave'' reason (35), if they do not intend to support a position (34), or if if a political candidate will pursue 'authentic human goods' rather than 'morally-flawed' position he/she holds (36).
That isn't a loophole, as I already pointed out in my lenghly thread with bolded text and comments. It is only a "loophole," if one reads it out of context and ignores the sections prior to and after.

You've also not shown how that wording is contrary to any magisterial teaching regarding voting.
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  #41  
Old Apr 10, '12, 2:20 pm
rlg94086 rlg94086 is offline
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Default Re: 'Faithful Citizenship' Gives Catholics a Chance to Seek the Common Good

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Abyssinia View Post
These loopholes exist nowhere in Catholic teaching except in this non-Magisterial document 'Faithful Citizenship.'
Post something directly contrary, with citation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Abyssinia View Post
You and me may interpret the paragraphs 34-37 differently, but the Catholic who already has sympathies for a pro abortion candidate like Barack Obama will not. They will not look deeper for clarifications in to what these paragraphs mean, they will just take it as it looks and think it excuses them to vote for a pro abortion candidate - when Catholic teaching does not allow it.
Improper interpretation and taking segments of a document out of context do not constitute a loophole. If it did, then you would have to argue that Sacred Scripture and the Catecism are full of loopholes. Are you prepared to do that?
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  #42  
Old Apr 10, '12, 3:29 pm
_Abyssinia _Abyssinia is offline
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Default Re: 'Faithful Citizenship' Gives Catholics a Chance to Seek the Common Good

Quote:
Originally Posted by rlg94086 View Post
Post something directly contrary, with citation.



Improper interpretation and taking segments of a document out of context do not constitute a loophole. If it did, then you would have to argue that Sacred Scripture and the Catecism are full of loopholes. Are you prepared to do that?
I do not see groups like Catholics United and Catholic Democrats misusing Sacred Scripture and the Catechism on their issue of abortion, but they are misusing quotes from 'Faithful Citizenship.'
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  #43  
Old Apr 10, '12, 3:29 pm
_Abyssinia _Abyssinia is offline
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Default Re: 'Faithful Citizenship' Gives Catholics a Chance to Seek the Common Good

Quote:
Originally Posted by rlg94086 View Post
That isn't a loophole, as I already pointed out in my lenghly thread with bolded text and comments. It is only a "loophole," if one reads it out of context and ignores the sections prior to and after.

You've also not shown how that wording is contrary to any magisterial teaching regarding voting.
Paragraph 34:

Quote:
A Catholic cannot vote for a candidate who takes a position in favor of an intrinsic evil, such as abortion or racism, if the voter’s intent is to support that position.
So a Catholic could vote for a pro-abortion politician if they do not support his/her pro abortion position? That all you have to have is the right intention? Where is that found in Magisterial teaching?

Paragraph 36:

Quote:
“When all candidates hold a position in favor of an intrinsic evil, the conscientious voter faces a dilemma. The voter may decide to take the extraordinary step of not voting for any candidate or, after careful deliberation, may decide to vote for the candidate deemed less likely to advance such a morally flawed position and more likely to pursue other authentic human goods.”
No examples of what a morally flawed position would be, no examples of what authentic human goods are. It sounds like you could vote for a pro abortion politician as long as they 'pursued other authentic human goods.' While I am sure reading clarifications from various Bishops who contributed to the document that this is not what they meant, these paragraphs made can be made to sound like whatever the person what it to sound like, which is why they has been misused. I have never seen that be done with Magisterial documents, because they are clear.
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  #44  
Old Apr 10, '12, 3:37 pm
rlg94086 rlg94086 is offline
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Default Re: 'Faithful Citizenship' Gives Catholics a Chance to Seek the Common Good

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Abyssinia View Post
Paragraph 34:



So a Catholic could vote for a pro-abortion politician if they do not support his/her pro abortion position? That all you have to have is the right intention? Where is that found in Magisterial teaching?
Nope. Again, you are taking it out of context.


Quote:
Originally Posted by _Abyssinia View Post
Paragraph 36:



No examples of what a morally flawed position would be, no examples of what authentic human goods are. It sounds like you could vote for a pro abortion politician as long as they 'pursued other authentic human goods.' While I am sure reading clarifications from various Bishops who contributed to the document that this is not what they meant, these paragraphs made can be made to sound like whatever the person what it to sound like, which is why they has been misused. I have never seen that be done with Magisterial documents, because they are clear.
The "morally flawed position" would be the aforementioned "intrinsic evil." IOW, if both major candidates were pro-choice, but one was okay with limitations while the other was trying to expand access to abortion, it would be licit to vote for the former. That is completely in line with Magisterial teaching.

I have seen people twist Magisterial reaching in similar manner. Heterodox Catholics do it all the time.
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  #45  
Old Apr 10, '12, 3:40 pm
rlg94086 rlg94086 is offline
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Default Re: 'Faithful Citizenship' Gives Catholics a Chance to Seek the Common Good

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Originally Posted by _Abyssinia View Post
I do not see groups like Catholics United and Catholic Democrats misusing Sacred Scripture and the Catechism on their issue of abortion, but they are misusing quotes from 'Faithful Citizenship.'
Are you kidding me? I've seen it all the time. Heck, you can find threads on CAF that have posters abusing Sacred Scripture's "loopholes" to advance their heresies. Have you read the ones that claim that homosexuality has nothing to do with Sodom and Gemorrah and St Paul's letters. I can find them for you, if you need help.
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