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  #1  
Old Apr 7, '12, 7:41 pm
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Default Does Col. 2:9 prove Mary was the Mother of God?

Col. 2:9- For in him (Jesus) dwells all the fullness of the God-head BODILY. The flesh of Jesus is shown here to have all of God in it (as well he was God). How could Mary not be perfect (immaculate conception) house God in her body if the entirety of God was inside her?
As a former 20 year fundamentalist it has become clearer by the passing days that Mary was indeed the Mother of God. Does "there is not one that is righteous" conflict?
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  #2  
Old Apr 7, '12, 8:55 pm
Crumpy Crumpy is offline
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Default Re: Does Col. 2:9 prove Mary was the Mother of God?

Thank God that you are in the Catholic Church.

I think that verse underscores that Mary is the mother of God. Jesus is God and Mary was chosen to be His earthly mother.

I didn't double-check your scripture citation, but yes I think it makes that idea very clear.

I hope that somebody can explain it better than me. Yes, scripture says that there is none righteous, no not one. And this is quoted by Paul in Romans. Nevertheless, scripture also says that this person was righteous and that person was righteous. so, scripture seems to make its own exceptions.

Likewise, in the gospel of Luke, it says that Mary was full of grace which has been interpreted as an exception to the no-righteous generalization.

Now, in the scheme of explaining things, I'm in deep water here. I'll put it this way. Doesn't scripture also tell us that we are made righteous in Jesus Christ?

Someone will explain this better than me, than this. I don't think righteousness is a never-was-righteous-never-will-be-righteous proposition. Righteousness is always a gift of God, and that's what I think it was in Mary's case.

Maybe this doesn't hit the target for explaining this technically, but this is how I think of it.
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  #3  
Old Apr 7, '12, 10:00 pm
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Default Re: Does Col. 2:9 prove Mary was the Mother of God?

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyjones View Post
Col. 2:9- For in him (Jesus) dwells all the fullness of the God-head BODILY. The flesh of Jesus is shown here to have all of God in it (as well he was God). How could Mary not be perfect (immaculate conception) house God in her body if the entirety of God was inside her?
As a former 20 year fundamentalist it has become clearer by the passing days that Mary was indeed the Mother of God. Does "there is not one that is righteous" conflict?
No, it doesn't, but it can look that way if you get used to reading the Bible the way fundamentalists do, which is almost like a textbook and not a work of literature with didactic purposes. A Catholic reads that and goes "Oh, he's quoting a poem to illustrate with flourish and hyperbole the fact that all human beings are afflicted with original sin and concupiscence, can't change that themselves through the Law, and thus need grace from God to fix it." A Protestant reads that and goes "Oh, all human beings are incapable of being righteous, and obeying rules can't fix that, so we need God to impute Christ's righteousness to us through faith alone." Naturally, the Catholics' way of seeing it allows for God to make someone like Mary. And that general way of reading the Bible also allows us to account for natural virtues and thus have people in the OT be considered righteous without having to read the term "righteous" univocally.
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Old Apr 7, '12, 10:00 pm
Todd Easton Todd Easton is offline
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Default Re: Does Col. 2:9 prove Mary was the Mother of God?

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Originally Posted by johnnyjones View Post
Does "there is not one that is righteous" conflict?
The "there is not one that is righteous" statement must be understood as a generalization that admits some exceptions. Otherwise, who are the righteous men Jesus spoke about when he said, "Truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it" ? (Matthew 13:17) Otherwise, why are some people mentioned by name in the New Testament as being "righteous," including, John the Baptist (Mark 6:20) and both his parents, Zechariah and Elizabeth (Luke 1:6), Simeon (Luke 2:25), Joseph of Arimathea, (Luke 23:49) and Joseph, the husband of Mary? (Matthew 1:19)
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  #5  
Old Apr 7, '12, 10:15 pm
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Default Re: Does Col. 2:9 prove Mary was the Mother of God?

I've never gotten why some Protestants get all weird about the whole Mother of God thing.

Jesus=God
Mary=Jesus's mother
therefore
Mary=Mother of God

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  #6  
Old Apr 7, '12, 11:31 pm
Blue_Cricket Blue_Cricket is offline
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Smile Re: Does Col. 2:9 prove Mary was the Mother of God?

Some thoughts:

Mary, being fully human -- though I believe her to be the Immaculate Conception and created and sustained without sin by special action of the Holy Trinity -- falls short of the "Glory of God", which is Divine. (The Most Highly Favored Daughter has limits, and God doesn't.)

Jesus came to fulfill the law and not abolish it -- so He too had to deal with the 4th Commandment of "Honor thy Father and Mother". This explains why He was subject to a his Mother, a mere creature at the Wedding at Cana, but when He was younger and lost for three days in the Temple, and Mary asked Him, "Why have You worried us? Didn't You know your father and I were looking for You?" (Check for exact quote) Jesus' reply was "Didn't you know I'd be about my Father's business?" establishing that Mary was His mother, but leaving it more clear that St. Joseph was his Foster Father -- whom Jesus deeply respected as chosen head of the Holy Family.

Now for an interesting tidbit which (I think) supports the Immaculate Conception dogma. When the female fetus has developed to three months in the womb all the eggs that future woman will ever need are there in proto-form in the ovaries to mature and ripen later in life, unlike male sperm, which is produced differently. Any genetic damage or imperfection would have to be at least stopped from settling in by that three month point, otherwise there would have been a physical flaw in she who was hailed "Full of Grace" -- something that might have resulted in Mary miscarrying Jesus, or just dying while He was still in the womb. John in Revelation described the pregnancy as very special -- the Woman Clothed with Sun could not be harmed by the Dragon. If Satan has power over all those who have somehow been contaminated with sin (With which the wages are death) then that Woman was beyond the Dragon's reach -- Immaculate. And so was her child (unmiscarriable).

So, this returns us to an ethical question -- why did Mary have to be without sin from the very beginning to be Jesus Mother, and not her own mother, or her mother's mother, or her mother's mother's mother (you get the idea) be able to take on the job of saying yes to Gabriel's important proposal ("God wants you to be His Mother. Will you say yes?") My thoughts are this. A perfect human, immaculately conceived, has perfect understanding and action of will, perfectly formed conscence with perfectly developed heart, soul, mind, and strength. It took a special action of God just to make sure Mary's Mother wouldn't miscarry, suicide, die of small pox, you name it. Then, to raise Mary must have been another adventure all it's own. So Mary, while living with sin, was never in sin--but had opportunity for sympathy and compassion for those bound in its chains (her family, friends, and neighbors). In her lifelong perfect loving worship of God, and love of neighbor as herself, Mary could make a rational unbiased choice -- did she want to play an increasingly difficult though honored part in Salvation History (remember, perfection nailed Jesus to His Cross and led Mary to the foot of it), or bow out and stand firm with what perfect but limited relationship with God she already had. (God would not force pregnancy on Mary. He asked. No coercion at all.)

And, finally, I believe Mary was Jesus' fully human mother, not a goddess of some sort, because if she was, that would negate the whole "God-incarnating-as-man-while-remaining-both-truly-God-and-truly-man" dogma in the Nicene Creed.

Sorry, but I ramble, and hope this helps
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  #7  
Old Apr 8, '12, 6:02 am
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Default Re: Does Col. 2:9 prove Mary was the Mother of God?

I'm glad you addressed the sin issue as it relates to Mary. Because the verse that says "non are righteous" goes on to say ALL HAVE SINNED. So, for me as a Catholic and seeing evidence from Col 2:9 , Mary is the mother of God but I need to work through and develop a complete answer as to how Mary was "with sin" but not "living in sin" . Or, I need to resolve another view that she had no sin, period.
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  #8  
Old Apr 9, '12, 10:57 am
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Default Re: Does Col. 2:9 prove Mary was the Mother of God?

Col 2:9: deity dwells bodily: "A powerful assertion of the full humanity and divinity of Jesus Christ (1:19; Jn 1:14). The mystery of the God-made-man was a stumbling block for many in Israel, who were skeptical that Yahweh's presence could reside in a man and who were scandalized that the Messiah should suffer the curse of crucifixion (1 Cor 1:23; Gal 3:13) (CCC 242, 515)."
[Ignatius Catholic Study Bible, Col 2:9]

That's an interesting scripture that shows Christ's humanity and divinity and indirectly points to Mary's title as God Bearer or Theotokos. I've never heard that scripture in reference to Mary before. However, most Christians who do not accept Mary's title as Theotokos also believe that Jesus is God so it is unlikely that this passage would persuade them.

A passage that I have heard frequently used to support the Theotokos is Luke 1:43 - "And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"

Mary is the Mother of God in a certain sense. Mary is the Mother of a Person, the Second Person of the Trinity, who became Flesh. But, she is not the Mother of the Trinity itself.

http://www.catholic.com/magazine/art...%80%99s-mother
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  #9  
Old Apr 9, '12, 2:40 pm
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ChrisCath ChrisCath is offline
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Default Re: Does Col. 2:9 prove Mary was the Mother of God?

This works for me:



That is, Elizabeth, while "filled with the Holy Spirit" [Luke 1:41], says that Mary is "the mother of my Lord."
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  #10  
Old Apr 9, '12, 4:10 pm
PoorKnight PoorKnight is offline
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Default Re: Does Col. 2:9 prove Mary was the Mother of God?

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Originally Posted by ChrisCath View Post
This works for me:



That is, Elizabeth, while "filled with the Holy Spirit" [Luke 1:41], says that Mary is "the mother of my Lord."
Game, Set, Match
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  #11  
Old Apr 10, '12, 9:39 am
anrmenchaca47 anrmenchaca47 is offline
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Default Re: Does Col. 2:9 prove Mary was the Mother of God?

Quote:
Originally Posted by anp1215 View Post
I've never gotten why some Protestants get all weird about the whole Mother of God thing.

Jesus=God
Mary=Jesus's mother
therefore
Mary=Mother of God

I was debating a guy, who strictly uses the KJV, on this topic and he told me that he was only his mother in an earthly sense; of his human condition....Yet, he believes that Jesus is God
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Old Apr 10, '12, 10:26 am
Gospel Man Gospel Man is offline
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Default Re: Does Col. 2:9 prove Mary was the Mother of God?

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyjones View Post
Col. 2:9- For in him (Jesus) dwells all the fullness of the God-head BODILY. The flesh of Jesus is shown here to have all of God in it (as well he was God). How could Mary not be perfect (immaculate conception) house God in her body if the entirety of God was inside her?
As a former 20 year fundamentalist it has become clearer by the passing days that Mary was indeed the Mother of God. Does "there is not one that is righteous" conflict?


Col 2: 9 tells us that the fulness of God dwelt in Jesus, And Jesus was in Mary.
But Jesus is in every believer, So is the Holy Ghost, 1 Cor 6: 19.
And God 2 Cor 6: 16.

Mary admited she needed a saviour. Lk 1: 47.
And she should know.

As you say, There is not one that is righteous, And ALL have sinned.
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Old Apr 10, '12, 10:34 am
Gospel Man Gospel Man is offline
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Default Re: Does Col. 2:9 prove Mary was the Mother of God?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crumpy View Post
Thank God that you are in the Catholic Church.

I think that verse underscores that Mary is the mother of God. Jesus is God and Mary was chosen to be His earthly mother.

I didn't double-check your scripture citation, but yes I think it makes that idea very clear.

I hope that somebody can explain it better than me. Yes, scripture says that there is none righteous, no not one. And this is quoted by Paul in Romans. Nevertheless, scripture also says that this person was righteous and that person was righteous. so, scripture seems to make its own exceptions.

Likewise, in the gospel of Luke, it says that Mary was full of grace which has been interpreted as an exception to the no-righteous generalization.

Now, in the scheme of explaining things, I'm in deep water here. I'll put it this way. Doesn't scripture also tell us that we are made righteous in Jesus Christ?

Someone will explain this better than me, than this. I don't think righteousness is a never-was-righteous-never-will-be-righteous proposition. Righteousness is always a gift of God, and that's what I think it was in Mary's case.

Maybe this doesn't hit the target for explaining this technically, but this is how I think of it.

There is a difference of being righteous by works of faith, As Abraham was when he offered Isaac., God counted Him righteous.
But Paul said God's own people had a great zeal for God, But went around doing their own righteousness, Which isn't God's righteousness.
God's righteouness is be faith in the finished work of Jesus.

Today, Every Christian is the righteousness of God. 2 Cor 5: 21.
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  #14  
Old Apr 10, '12, 2:15 pm
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Default Re: Does Col. 2:9 prove Mary was the Mother of God?

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Originally Posted by anrmenchaca47 View Post
I was debating a guy, who strictly uses the KJV, on this topic and he told me that he was only his mother in an earthly sense; of his human condition....Yet, he believes that Jesus is God
Go figure.
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Old Apr 10, '12, 2:44 pm
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Default Re: Does Col. 2:9 prove Mary was the Mother of God?

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Originally Posted by johnnyjones View Post
Does "there is not one that is righteous" conflict?
Are you referring to Romans 3:23?


It must be acknowledged that, at a minimum, Jesus is an exception to the "all have sinned" statement. And fom the same Epistle, Romans 9:11, we see that Sarah's children had no sin either.

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