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  #31  
Old Apr 10, '12, 3:54 pm
Splagchnizomai Splagchnizomai is offline
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Default Re: Maronite Music

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillip Rolfes View Post
Sadly they have not been rendered into any form of English (elegant, serviceable, or otherwise), nor has there been an attempt, to my knowledge, to adapt Gregorian chant to the English language.
Yes, there has. Simple English Propers. These are very well done.

There are others, and many of the hymnals for the 3rd edition of the Roman Missal have chants (though most use standard notation). I have Fr Weber's Office Of Compline, which has both English and Latin.

Also, Solemes just put out an English translation. It looks like it's only available in Europe.

And St Meinrad has been very active in Gregorian chant in English, particularly Fr Columba Kelly. Check out the St Meinrad Kyriale. Six Mass settings.

Chant is making a return in the Latin Church. Still in the grassroots stages as folks form a Garage Schola here and there in parishes across the land, but there's more chant in my area now than say two or three years ago.

Back to our regularly scheduled program.
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  #32  
Old Apr 10, '12, 5:02 pm
Phillip Rolfes Phillip Rolfes is offline
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Default Re: Maronite Music

Quote:
Originally Posted by Splagchnizomai View Post
Yes, there has. Simple English Propers. These are very well done.

There are others, and many of the hymnals for the 3rd edition of the Roman Missal have chants (though most use standard notation). I have Fr Weber's Office Of Compline, which has both English and Latin.

Also, Solemes just put out an English translation. It looks like it's only available in Europe.

And St Meinrad has been very active in Gregorian chant in English, particularly Fr Columba Kelly. Check out the St Meinrad Kyriale. Six Mass settings.

Chant is making a return in the Latin Church. Still in the grassroots stages as folks form a Garage Schola here and there in parishes across the land, but there's more chant in my area now than say two or three years ago.

Back to our regularly scheduled program.
Wow! I stand corrected and amazed. I knew the Liturgical Institute was doing good work. So far I've only been able to check out the first video.

Incidentally, the young lady in the video wearing the hat and the white skirt is a good friend of mine, and my wife's best friend! They talk over the phone on a weekly basis. She's going to be my son's Godmother.
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  #33  
Old Apr 10, '12, 9:30 pm
chaldobyzantine chaldobyzantine is offline
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Religion: Eastern Catholicism (I prefer Eastern Orthodox theology)
Default Re: Maronite Music

Occasionally the Maronite Church does use amazing traditional music, mostly done in Syriac and sometimes in Arabic. When modern hymns are done, in English or Arabic, the songs sound awful, so the consensus on this thread is traditional Maronite music is needed to replace the post-Vatican II music, albeit in a language the people can understand (even though I wish Maronites spoke more Syriac).

Their usage of instruments does not seem as bad as the parishes in my Chaldean eparchy using wind chimes, synthesizers, drums, and trumpets. I actually think that when Maronite or Syriac churches use the oud or nay as a quiet complement to hymns, it does sound quite nice when done right. Though this is not always the case

I am currently listening to traditional Maronite hymns on Youtube that use instruments, but in a simple and non-overbearing style that many churches have abandoned. One should always suggest to their priests and parish choirs to return to their traditional musical roots. And to not worry about hurting the feelings of the players of obnoxious instruments, they should't be in the choir loft anyway.
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  #34  
Old Apr 10, '12, 10:29 pm
dzheremi dzheremi is online now
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Default Re: Maronite Music

Quote:
Originally Posted by malphono View Post
Well, I wouldn't really say that. Until the modern era and the advent of the neo-Maronite musical style, the true sounds of Syriac chant were alive and well, particularly in monasteries, and to some degree, they still are.
Forgive me, Malphono, but I think it was you who originally brought up (some time ago) the problem of "dynamic equivalency"-style translations that are not really faithful to the Syriac, so that's more what I was getting at. As mentioned in Mouawad's Syriac in Lebanon article (which I'll reference since we both know it), the problem is in being cut off from the sources, which is itself a consequence of language shift and the attendant 'vernacularism' (though I suppose that term could have also been applied to Syriac itself, once upon a time...) in the liturgy. I understand that things were/are different in the monasteries (as is the case in the Coptic monasteries, so I understand the dichotomy), but well...we've all seen the. uh...non-monastic liturgies on Tele-Lumiere or MTV Lebanon...if they are retained there to the same degree, I have not seen it. (The Copts, for their part, have produced some interesting adaptations for their hymns: compare Tentheeno from the Midnight Praises in the original to this English version from St. Antony monastery in the California desert. I'm biased, but I think they did a good job.)

Quote:
The increasing use of Arabic (at first in Karchuni script) really had little bearing on it, at least insofar as proper liturgical chant was concerned.
This was poorly phrased on my part (again). I brought up Garshuni as a measure of the historical course of the adoption of Arabic by the Maronites, not to say that Garshuni itself destroyed the hymns. (Incidentally, maybe the earliest Garshuni text yet identified, as per Mengozzi's 2010 paper on the Rabbula codex, is a 6th century text from Deir al-Surian monastery in Egypt.)

Quote:
the translation itself was considered paramount, so the Syriac tune was often slightly adapted to conform to the Arabic text (the addition of a note or two here, or the deletion of same there, etc). That, of course, is no longer the case. In main, those tunes that are of Syriac origin have been arbitrarily "standardized" and the texts are now dynamic equivalents (or worse) and are no longer translations.
Thank you. This is the situation I was trying to get at in the previous paragraph (albeit clumsily; my apologies).

Beyond the standardization of Syriac tunes, the neo-Maronite school also continues to "enhance" (well, I consider it to be quite the opposite of "enhancement" but never mind that) tunes as well as producing original musical composition sometimes based on the meter of the Syriac original but otherwise totally divergent from it (which I normally regard as being even worse than the "enhancements" but I digress). And sometimes (as in the linked example) a combination of the two. [/quote]

Yeah. Sorry, I couldn't come up with a better example of a Syriac hymn off the top of my head. Or at least not one that had a Youtube video. Besides, the linked video is not far off from what is often heard in Maronite churches now, is it?
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  #35  
Old Apr 11, '12, 2:25 am
malphono malphono is offline
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Default Re: Maronite Music

Quote:
Originally Posted by dzheremi View Post
Forgive me, Malphono, but I think it was you who originally brought up (some time ago) the problem of "dynamic equivalency"-style translations that are not really faithful to the Syriac, so that's more what I was getting at. As mentioned in Mouawad's Syriac in Lebanon article (which I'll reference since we both know it), the problem is in being cut off from the sources, which is itself a consequence of language shift and the attendant 'vernacularism' (though I suppose that term could have also been applied to Syriac itself, once upon a time...) in the liturgy. I understand that things were/are different in the monasteries (as is the case in the Coptic monasteries, so I understand the dichotomy), but well...
I think we're really on the same page here ... what I was getting at earlier in this thread was simply that proper liturgical chant in Syriac was maintained in pre-conciliar times. (NB: That's not to say the harmonium or organ wasn't sometimes used, but the chant itself remained faithful to its roots.) One can hear it in the few "old" recordings available (IIRC you have some of them). It wasn't until the rise of the neo-Maronite style in the post-conciliar era that Syriac chant itself has been increasingly (though not completely -- hence my reference to monasteries, some of which keep the "real thing") mangled .

Quote:
Originally Posted by dzheremi View Post
we've all seen the. uh...non-monastic liturgies on Tele-Lumiere or MTV Lebanon...if they are retained there to the same degree, I have not seen it.
I've not seen it either. Not in those dreadful broadcasts (which accurately represent what goes on in Lebanon) nor in person. And that is exactly my point. The "best" of those represent the neo-Maronite musical style which is no prize. The worst represent an essentially Syriac-free (both in language and musical style) environment.

That said, there is at least one partial exception: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOfFm888Zfg. Even that is not 100% (mainly due to the instrumentation, but in this case that's a very minor issue) but it's by far the best I've heard recorded in well over 30 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dzheremi View Post
(The Copts, for their part, have produced some interesting adaptations for their hymns: compare Tentheeno from the Midnight Praises in the original to this English version from St. Antony monastery in the California desert. I'm biased, but I think they did a good job.)
Yes, they've done a reasonably good job. Similar, in its way, to "old style" of Maronite translations including, to a degree at least, the now-reviled work of Khouri Mansour Labaky in English.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dzheremi View Post
Yeah. Sorry, I couldn't come up with a better example of a Syriac hymn off the top of my head. Or at least not one that had a Youtube video. Besides, the linked video is not far off from what is often heard in Maronite churches now, is it?
As I inferred earlier, your linked video is better than most other things one hears these days. It is one of the "hybrids" as I mentioned in my earlier post, but I'd still prefer to hear that than 98% of the neo-Maronite stuff which is far, far worse.
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  #36  
Old Apr 11, '12, 11:01 am
Phillip Rolfes Phillip Rolfes is offline
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Default Re: Maronite Music

Quote:
Originally Posted by Denho View Post
There is a selection of various Maronite chants for the Hours located here as well:

http://www.beith-morounoye.org/syriac/MIDI/index.html
Thanks for providing this.
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  #37  
Old Apr 11, '12, 3:03 pm
dzheremi dzheremi is online now
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Default Re: Maronite Music

Quote:
Originally Posted by malphono View Post
Yes, they've done a reasonably good job. Similar, in its way, to "old style" of Maronite translations including, to a degree at least, the now-reviled work of Khouri Mansour Labaky in English.
The only English material I have by Fr. Labaky is the "Cedars of Lebanon" LP, but I really don't think it's that bad. It's grown on me quite a bit, actually. So it's a little strange to hear that he's reviled now. Did he go neo-Maronite style after that?

Quote:
As I inferred earlier, your linked video is better than most other things one hears these days. It is one of the "hybrids" as I mentioned in my earlier post, but I'd still prefer to hear that than 98% of the neo-Maronite stuff which is far, far worse.
Yeah, I agree. By "better", I just meant "not mixed", or pure(r) Syriac.
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