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  #1  
Old Apr 10, '12, 8:15 am
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LoyalViews LoyalViews is offline
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Default Protestants in the Eastern Churches

So the west had the Protestant "reformation", Luther objected to the truth and wanted people to believe in his own teachings, but what about in the East? Is there an equivalent to Lutherans....say, only "eastern" style. You know, like "Orthodox protestants" who split from say...the Melkites, or the Maronites?
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  #2  
Old Apr 10, '12, 9:48 am
TheInquisitor TheInquisitor is offline
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Default Re: Protestants in the Eastern Churches

From what I know, the Eastern Churches didn't have to deal with a reformation. They had to deal with being conquered by Muslims.
  #3  
Old Apr 10, '12, 3:16 pm
JPeter JPeter is offline
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Default Re: Protestants in the Eastern Churches

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Originally Posted by LoyalViews View Post
So the west had the Protestant "reformation", Luther objected to the truth and wanted people to believe in his own teachings, but what about in the East? Is there an equivalent to Lutherans....say, only "eastern" style. You know, like "Orthodox protestants" who split from say...the Melkites, or the Maronites?
First of all. Your Pope has already rehabilitated Luther. In case you missed it, Pope Benedict XVI declared that Martin Luther actually wasn’t a heretic. According to the Pope, Luther never intended to split the Catholic Church, which is actually true. He never intended to split, but was trying to invite a dialogue and discussion over the doctrine of justification by faith alone. Many don’t realize this, but the 95 Theses he nailed to the church doors was written in Latin, not German, which was the language of the people. If he was trying to insight a rebellion, he would have written them down in a language the people could understand.

Pope Benedict XVI says that he was trying to cleanse the Catholic Church, and for that should not be condemned.

If you believe the Roman Catholic Church is the pillar of the truth, then you may not like it but you do have to believe it.

To my knowledge no Church ever broke away from the Orthodox, accept for the Roman Catholic Church depending on your interpretation of history. The Orthodox have been involved in a lot of dialogue with Lutherans, Anglicans, and old Catholics. In the 16th century a copy of the Augsburg confession was sent to an Orthodox patriarch. Although he agreed with a good portion of it, he did not accept it as Orthodox. However, the tides have changed in some ways. In 1976 Joseph Ratzinger (later Pope Benedict XVI) suggested that the Augsburg Confession might possibly be recognized as a Catholic statement of faith.
  #4  
Old Apr 10, '12, 3:40 pm
Mark of Ephesus Mark of Ephesus is offline
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Default Re: Protestants in the Eastern Churches

Well, there are always splinter groups (like the Old Calendarists, Old Believers, Monophysites, various nationalistic churches, etc.), but nothing on the scale of the Protestant Reformation. I think this is largely due to the Orthodox understanding of truth. Because Orthodoxy rejects metaphysical speculation as a means of arriving at truth (we rely instead on hesychastic experience), there is little room for theological speculation, and thus even less room for theological deviation.
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  #5  
Old Apr 10, '12, 4:17 pm
JPeter JPeter is offline
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Default Re: Protestants in the Eastern Churches

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Originally Posted by Mark of Ephesus View Post
Well, there are always splinter groups (like the Old Calendarists, Old Believers, Monophysites, various nationalistic churches, etc.), but nothing on the scale of the Protestant Reformation. I think this is largely due to the Orthodox understanding of truth. Because Orthodoxy rejects metaphysical speculation as a means of arriving at truth (we rely instead on hesychastic experience), there is little room for theological speculation, and thus even less room for theological deviation.
Actually we Anglicans have a similar understanding. You pray your way into the truth instead of trying to think or read your way there.
  #6  
Old Apr 10, '12, 5:16 pm
Mark of Ephesus Mark of Ephesus is offline
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Default Re: Protestants in the Eastern Churches

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Originally Posted by JPeter View Post
Actually we Anglicans have a similar understanding. You pray your way into the truth instead of trying to think or read your way there.
I see what you are saying, but I think there is still a significant difference in approach.

In Orthodoxy, the fullness of truth is revealed in the uncreated light (glorification). Orthodox doctrine comes from this experience (scripture and ecumenical councils being written/attended by those in such a state) and thus for anyone to reject Orthodoxy (and break away as the OP posits) he would have to have never experienced the uncreated light (relying on one some other means, often theological study, of arriving at belief) and in some cases, rejecting the validity of hesychasm entirely.
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  #7  
Old Apr 10, '12, 5:23 pm
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Default Re: Protestants in the Eastern Churches

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Originally Posted by JPeter View Post
First of all. Your Pope has already rehabilitated Luther. In case you missed it, Pope Benedict XVI declared that Martin Luther actually wasn’t a heretic. According to the Pope, Luther never intended to split the Catholic Church, which is actually true. He never intended to split, but was trying to invite a dialogue and discussion over the doctrine of justification by faith alone. Many don’t realize this, but the 95 Theses he nailed to the church doors was written in Latin, not German, which was the language of the people. If he was trying to insight a rebellion, he would have written them down in a language the people could understand.

Pope Benedict XVI says that he was trying to cleanse the Catholic Church, and for that should not be condemned.

If you believe the Roman Catholic Church is the pillar of the truth, then you may not like it but you do have to believe it.

To my knowledge no Church ever broke away from the Orthodox, accept for the Roman Catholic Church depending on your interpretation of history. The Orthodox have been involved in a lot of dialogue with Lutherans, Anglicans, and old Catholics. In the 16th century a copy of the Augsburg confession was sent to an Orthodox patriarch. Although he agreed with a good portion of it, he did not accept it as Orthodox. However, the tides have changed in some ways. In 1976 Joseph Ratzinger (later Pope Benedict XVI) suggested that the Augsburg Confession might possibly be recognized as a Catholic statement of faith.
I never said Luther intended to split from the Church, I never said he was a heretic, nor did I say he intended a split. I never said anything about the 95 Theses.

What did I in fact say? I said that Martin Luther objected to the truth and wanted people to believe in his own teachings. Now I know he understood that as reforming the Church, which I know IS what his efforts were. However, if they were his true efforts, his fruit would not have yielded a new ecclesial body, would it.

Our Holy Father did say he tried to cleanse ("reform") the Church. Our Holy Father did not say, however, that Luther wasn't a heretic. There is no possible way I could explain this more accurately, than linking you to this thread here. It is a discussion regarding His Holiness's views on Luther.

The Augsburg Confession, however not condemned officially, does contain many of Luther's personal "interpretations" of Church teachings, and his thoughts about how such things should be carried out WITHIN the Church, but there is more than the Augsburg Confession. There isn't much in the Confession itself, in the very texts, that are problematic. There are documents and books written by Luther where he proves his initial dissent and heresy.

But I really don't want to derail this thread, as my question has been answered. Thanks for responding though! God Bless
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Old Apr 10, '12, 5:24 pm
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Default Re: Protestants in the Eastern Churches

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Originally Posted by Mark of Ephesus View Post
I see what you are saying, but I think there is still a significant difference in approach.

In Orthodoxy, the fullness of truth is revealed in the uncreated light (glorification). Orthodox doctrine comes from this experience (scripture and ecumenical councils being written/attended by those in such a state) and thus for anyone to reject Orthodoxy (and break away as the OP posits) he would have to have never experienced the uncreated light (relying on one some other means, often theological study, of arriving at belief) and in some cases, rejecting the validity of hesychasm entirely.
Thank you! Just the answer I was looking for. God Bless

Question Answered
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  #9  
Old Apr 10, '12, 7:07 pm
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FabiusMaximus FabiusMaximus is offline
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Default Re: Protestants in the Eastern Churches

Quote:
Originally Posted by JPeter View Post
First of all. Your Pope has already rehabilitated Luther. In case you missed it, Pope Benedict XVI declared that Martin Luther actually wasn’t a heretic. According to the Pope, Luther never intended to split the Catholic Church, which is actually true. He never intended to split, but was trying to invite a dialogue and discussion over the doctrine of justification by faith alone. Many don’t realize this, but the 95 Theses he nailed to the church doors was written in Latin, not German, which was the language of the people. If he was trying to insight a rebellion, he would have written them down in a language the people could understand.

Pope Benedict XVI says that he was trying to cleanse the Catholic Church, and for that should not be condemned.

If you believe the Roman Catholic Church is the pillar of the truth, then you may not like it but you do have to believe it.

To my knowledge no Church ever broke away from the Orthodox, accept for the Roman Catholic Church depending on your interpretation of history. The Orthodox have been involved in a lot of dialogue with Lutherans, Anglicans, and old Catholics. In the 16th century a copy of the Augsburg confession was sent to an Orthodox patriarch. Although he agreed with a good portion of it, he did not accept it as Orthodox. However, the tides have changed in some ways. In 1976 Joseph Ratzinger (later Pope Benedict XVI) suggested that the Augsburg Confession might possibly be recognized as a Catholic statement of faith.
My friend, I think you are being unnecessarily hostile toward the OP. He never stated any of those things you seem to imply he claimed.

Just a thought.

With regards to the thread, I think much of it can be attributed to the large scale-institutional corruption that pervaded the Catholic Church during the era of the Reformation, which destroyed its credibility and fueled the Reformation movement. In addition, I think the Ottoman occupation has had a tremendous impact on it too. It's a little difficult to worry about certain issues when you're worrying that your entire faith might be extinguished by a conquering army. And I think this is significant. The West was instead in a relative state of peace and prosperity, which meant that people could afford to think more about Christian doctrine.

Although, perhaps you can call some of the early heresies in the Christian Church as "Orthodox Reformations" in the sense that they primarily plagued the Eastern Church (Arianism, Nestorianism, Monophysitism, etc) than the Western Church. Iconoclasm is also another reference point, in which the Orthodox Church was facing a new movement threatening one of Christianity's oldest traditions. All these movements can, in a sense, be considered 'Reformations' for the Eastern Church. It is also interesting to note that a lot of these movements were then rehashed in some of the more radical movements of the Western Reformation.

I hope none of what I stated above is taken as a criticism of either Orthodoxy or the Protestant Reformation.
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  #10  
Old Apr 10, '12, 8:43 pm
CopticChristian CopticChristian is offline
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Default Re: Protestants in the Eastern Churches

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Originally Posted by JPeter View Post
Actually we Anglicans have a similar understanding. You pray your way into the truth instead of trying to think or read your way there.
J,

When you speak of We Anglicans are you not just speaking for Anglicans of North America as you pointed out previously.

Quote:
No, I'm Anglican Church in North America. I mostly disagree with Anglicans on all of these issues. We have some Liberal Bishops in parts of the Church but not the majority. These are issues that we are a voice against and they are never permitted in the ACNA.
You do not speak for all Anglicans...
  #11  
Old Apr 10, '12, 10:34 pm
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Izdaari Izdaari is offline
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Default Re: Protestants in the Eastern Churches

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Originally Posted by LoyalViews View Post
What did I in fact say? I said that Martin Luther objected to the truth and wanted people to believe in his own teachings. Now I know he understood that as reforming the Church, which I know IS what his efforts were. However, if they were his true efforts, his fruit would not have yielded a new ecclesial body, would it.
That doesn't necessarily follow. Sometimes actions taken with one intention yield an unforeseen and very different result.

And saying that Luther "objected to the truth" is a very prejudicial way of putting it. A large part of the 95 Theses were objections to practices that the Catholic Church itself later decided were unsound and incorrect, and discontinued them... even if it did take a couple hundred years.
  #12  
Old Apr 11, '12, 7:52 am
JPeter JPeter is offline
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Default Re: Protestants in the Eastern Churches

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And saying that Luther "objected to the truth" is a very prejudicial way of putting it. A large part of the 95 Theses were objections to practices that the Catholic Church itself later decided were unsound and incorrect, and discontinued them... even if it did take a couple hundred years.
That is exactly my point. A lot of what Luther was teaching was absolutely correct. Not according to Luther but according to the modern Roman Catholic Church. To say that Luther used a harsh tone when speaking about the Papacy is an understatement. But when you look at the Lutheran reformation it was rather conservative in comparison to other reformations on the continent. And beyond that the Lutherans accept the the decisions of the early Church councils, they believe in the sacraments as a means of grace, they accept baptismal regeneration and the real presence in the Eucharist, they are liturgical, they have private confession and absolution. These folks are more Catholic than many folks give them credit for. Of course when being Catholic gets turned into obedience to the Pope instead of holding to the faith once delivered to the saints, I can see how Roman Catholics may feel that Luther was a heretic.
  #13  
Old Apr 11, '12, 8:28 am
JPeter JPeter is offline
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Default Re: Protestants in the Eastern Churches

Quote:
My friend, I think you are being unnecessarily hostile toward the OP. He never stated any of those things you seem to imply he claimed.

Just a thought.
What did I post that was harsh? I really need to tone it down if what I said here was harsh.
  #14  
Old Apr 11, '12, 9:40 am
JPeter JPeter is offline
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Default Re: Protestants in the Eastern Churches

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Originally Posted by CopticChristian View Post
J,

When you speak of We Anglicans are you not just speaking for Anglicans of North America as you pointed out previously.



You do not speak for all Anglicans...
The "Anglicans" who allow abortion and homosexual marriage have left the Church. Excommunication is automatic. If YOUR views diverge from the faith once and in its fullness delivered unto the saints than you are excommunicated from the Catholic Church. I speak for all true Anglicans.

Do you speak for all true Roman Catholics? How about Pelosi and Biden?
  #15  
Old Apr 11, '12, 9:43 am
CopticChristian CopticChristian is offline
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Default Re: Protestants in the Eastern Churches

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Originally Posted by JPeter View Post
The "Anglicans" who allow abortion and homosexual marriage have left the Church. Excommunication is automatic. If YOUR views diverge from the faith once and in its fullness delivered unto the saints than you are excommunicated from the Catholic Church. I speak for all true Anglicans.

Do you speak for all true Roman Catholics? How about Pelosi and Biden?
J,

What is a "true" Roman Catholic?

How about Pelosi.

How about Biden.

What do these statements with question marks mean?
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