unconvert? - Page 7

TrueLight · #91 Apr 10, '12, 9:05 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by whisperer42

So how do Catholics view grace?

It might be helpful to read the section in the Catechism on grace and see if you have any specific questions.

Grace

Maybe start with section 1996 on grace and then look at justification and merit.

whisperer42 · #92 Apr 10, '12, 9:14 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrueLight

It might be helpful to read the section in the Catechism on grace and see if you have any specific questions.

Grace

Maybe start with section 1996 on grace and then look at justification and merit.

TBH after 1998 I have a hard time understanding what is being said. It sounds like vcr instructions.

whisperer42 · #93 Apr 10, '12, 9:18 pm

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

This does not sound like unmerited grace...

**LilyM** · #94 Apr 10, '12, 9:37 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by whisperer42

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

This does not sound like unmerited grace...

Read the sections again, like you would the VCR instructions

in essence -

Para 2007 - WE do not merit anything in ourselves.

Para 2009 - the merit attached to our works is the result of God's gratuitous justice ... and His love of us as His adopted children. Not any deserving on our part.

A bit like a parent attaches value to a child's artwork not because the art is in itself any good, nor the child in themselves talented, but because it is produced by that parent's child and the parent's love of them gives it value in their eyes.The child doesn't earn or create the value, the parent attaches it.

whisperer42 · #95 Apr 10, '12, 9:40 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LilyM

Read the sections again, like you would the VCR instructions

in essence -

Para 2007 - WE do not merit anything in ourselves.

Para 2009 - the merit attached to our works is the result of God's gratuitous justice ... and His love of us as His adopted children. Not any deserving on our part. The child doesn't earn or create the value, the parent attaches it.

but after conversion a person can merit grace? 2010

whisperer42 · #96 Apr 10, '12, 9:44 pm

It sounds like Catholics believe God starts then man finishes.
Grace + merit

**LilyM** · #97 Apr 10, '12, 9:47 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by whisperer42

but after conversion a person can merit grace? 2010

AFTER I adopt a child I value all it's artworks for love of it, even the most ordinary, because the child also loves me and it makes them to please me. Before? Well, before, I might not even know the child and it certainly might not know me nor do anything for my sake!

whisperer42 · #98 Apr 10, '12, 9:50 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LilyM

AFTER I adopt a child I value all it's artworks for love of it, even the most ordinary, because the child also loves me and it makes them to please me. Before? Well, before, I might not even know the child and it certainly might not know me nor do anything for my sake!

How is that not merit?

**LilyM** · #99 Apr 10, '12, 9:57 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by whisperer42

How is that not merit?

Because in and of itself what the child has produced is worthless. No art dealer or collector would pay a dime for it, nor would it win any prizes or awards or even a 'well done' from any teacher who appreciated art for art's own sake. If a dealer or collector or any of the others WOULD value it or appreciate it, THEN it could be said that it had merit.

It is wholly and solely the love between parent and child that causes the parent to perceive the worthless attempt at a picture as having any value at all. So the value is all attributes by the parent and none of the child's doing.

Hope that makes it clearer.

TrueLight · #**100** Apr 10, '12, 9:58 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LilyM

Because in and of itself what the child has produced is worthless. No art dealer or collector would pay a dime for it, nor would it win any prizes or awards or even a 'well done' from any teacher who appreciated art for art's own sake. If a dealer or collector or any of the others WOULD value it or appreciate it, THEN it could be said that it had merit.

It is wholly and solely the love between parent and child that causes the parent to perceive the worthless attempt at a picture as having any value at all. So the value is all attributes by the parent and none of the child's doing.

Hope that makes it clearer.

Ooh Lily. I love this analogy!

**LilyM** · #**101** Apr 10, '12, 10:02 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrueLight

Ooh Lily. I love this analogy!

Thanks. I have seven nieces and nephews, so get a lot of offerings from budding young artists

ConstantineTG · #**102** Apr 10, '12, 10:03 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by whisperer42

I feel kinda weird asking this but as someone who converted to Catholicism only a couple of years ago. Is it possible to unconvert?
I stopped attending catholic church after my first year, and would kind like to erase what happened... I know not really possible.

Outside of the baptism certificate is there anything else that would show I was a member? If I asked could I have the original baptism certificate?

Like I said it was for a very short time and I consider it a mistake.

Thank you.

Why so concerned about it? If you left the Church, why worry about your records? Does it change anything you have right now?

whisperer42 · #**103** Apr 10, '12, 10:05 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LilyM

Because in and of itself what the child has produced is worthless. No art dealer or collector would pay a dime for it, nor would it win any prizes or awards or even a 'well done' from any teacher who appreciated art for art's own sake. If a dealer or collector or any of the others WOULD value it or appreciate it, THEN it could be said that it had merit.

It is wholly and solely the love between parent and child that causes the parent to perceive the worthless attempt at a picture as having any value at all. So the value is all attributes by the parent and none of the child's doing.

Hope that makes it clearer.

If someone gave you a million dollars and all you had to do was touch your nose. That is still merit.

Even if we had to do almost imposible works to receive the smallest amount of Gods favor we would still be making out like a bandit.

whisperer42 · #**104** Apr 10, '12, 10:06 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LilyM

Thanks. I have seven nieces and nephews, so get a lot of offerings from budding young artists

**LilyM** · #**105** Apr 10, '12, 10:13 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by whisperer42

If someone gave you a million dollars and all you had to do was touch your nose. That is still merit.

Even if we had to do almost imposible works to receive the smallest amount of Gods favor we would still be making out like a bandit.

No, THAT is grace - an undeserved gift. Since we none of us deserve a million dollars for merely touching our nose!

And we certainly do not deserve salvation or any lesser good merely for the works we do - be they ever so good, they are in no way deserving of what we get from God in return.