Catholic FAQ


Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #91  
Old Apr 10, '12, 9:05 pm
TrueLight's Avatar
TrueLight TrueLight is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: March 5, 2011
Posts: 9,954
Religion: Roman Catholic- Old Rite & Daughter of Dominic
Default Re: unconvert?

Quote:
Originally Posted by whisperer42 View Post
So how do Catholics view grace?
It might be helpful to read the section in the Catechism on grace and see if you have any specific questions.

Grace

Maybe start with section 1996 on grace and then look at justification and merit.
__________________


HOC EST ENIM CORPUS MEUM
Reply With Quote
  #92  
Old Apr 10, '12, 9:14 pm
whisperer42 whisperer42 is offline
Trial Membership
 
Join Date: April 10, 2012
Posts: 57
Default Re: unconvert?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueLight View Post
It might be helpful to read the section in the Catechism on grace and see if you have any specific questions.

Grace

Maybe start with section 1996 on grace and then look at justification and merit.
TBH after 1998 I have a hard time understanding what is being said. It sounds like vcr instructions.
Reply With Quote
  #93  
Old Apr 10, '12, 9:18 pm
whisperer42 whisperer42 is offline
Trial Membership
 
Join Date: April 10, 2012
Posts: 57
Default Re: unconvert?

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

This does not sound like unmerited grace...
Reply With Quote
  #94  
Old Apr 10, '12, 9:37 pm
LilyM's Avatar
LilyM LilyM is offline
Forum Elder
Forum Supporter
 
Join Date: February 1, 2006
Posts: 33,193
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: unconvert?

Quote:
Originally Posted by whisperer42 View Post
2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

This does not sound like unmerited grace...
Read the sections again, like you would the VCR instructions in essence -

Para 2007 - WE do not merit anything in ourselves.

Para 2009 - the merit attached to our works is the result of God's gratuitous justice ... and His love of us as His adopted children. Not any deserving on our part.

A bit like a parent attaches value to a child's artwork not because the art is in itself any good, nor the child in themselves talented, but because it is produced by that parent's child and the parent's love of them gives it value in their eyes.The child doesn't earn or create the value, the parent attaches it.
__________________

Christ The Lord Is Risen Today! Alleluia!!


God bless and keep our new Pope Francis - Viva il Papa!
Reply With Quote
  #95  
Old Apr 10, '12, 9:40 pm
whisperer42 whisperer42 is offline
Trial Membership
 
Join Date: April 10, 2012
Posts: 57
Default Re: unconvert?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LilyM View Post
Read the sections again, like you would the VCR instructions in essence -

Para 2007 - WE do not merit anything in ourselves.

Para 2009 - the merit attached to our works is the result of God's gratuitous justice ... and His love of us as His adopted children. Not any deserving on our part. The child doesn't earn or create the value, the parent attaches it.
but after conversion a person can merit grace? 2010
Reply With Quote
  #96  
Old Apr 10, '12, 9:44 pm
whisperer42 whisperer42 is offline
Trial Membership
 
Join Date: April 10, 2012
Posts: 57
Default Re: unconvert?

It sounds like Catholics believe God starts then man finishes.
Grace + merit
Reply With Quote
  #97  
Old Apr 10, '12, 9:47 pm
LilyM's Avatar
LilyM LilyM is offline
Forum Elder
Forum Supporter
 
Join Date: February 1, 2006
Posts: 33,193
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: unconvert?

Quote:
Originally Posted by whisperer42 View Post
but after conversion a person can merit grace? 2010
AFTER I adopt a child I value all it's artworks for love of it, even the most ordinary, because the child also loves me and it makes them to please me. Before? Well, before, I might not even know the child and it certainly might not know me nor do anything for my sake!
__________________

Christ The Lord Is Risen Today! Alleluia!!


God bless and keep our new Pope Francis - Viva il Papa!
Reply With Quote
  #98  
Old Apr 10, '12, 9:50 pm
whisperer42 whisperer42 is offline
Trial Membership
 
Join Date: April 10, 2012
Posts: 57
Default Re: unconvert?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LilyM View Post
AFTER I adopt a child I value all it's artworks for love of it, even the most ordinary, because the child also loves me and it makes them to please me. Before? Well, before, I might not even know the child and it certainly might not know me nor do anything for my sake!
How is that not merit?
Reply With Quote
  #99  
Old Apr 10, '12, 9:57 pm
LilyM's Avatar
LilyM LilyM is offline
Forum Elder
Forum Supporter
 
Join Date: February 1, 2006
Posts: 33,193
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: unconvert?

Quote:
Originally Posted by whisperer42 View Post
How is that not merit?
Because in and of itself what the child has produced is worthless. No art dealer or collector would pay a dime for it, nor would it win any prizes or awards or even a 'well done' from any teacher who appreciated art for art's own sake. If a dealer or collector or any of the others WOULD value it or appreciate it, THEN it could be said that it had merit.

It is wholly and solely the love between parent and child that causes the parent to perceive the worthless attempt at a picture as having any value at all. So the value is all attributes by the parent and none of the child's doing.

Hope that makes it clearer.
__________________

Christ The Lord Is Risen Today! Alleluia!!


God bless and keep our new Pope Francis - Viva il Papa!
Reply With Quote
  #100  
Old Apr 10, '12, 9:58 pm
TrueLight's Avatar
TrueLight TrueLight is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: March 5, 2011
Posts: 9,954
Religion: Roman Catholic- Old Rite & Daughter of Dominic
Default Re: unconvert?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LilyM View Post
Because in and of itself what the child has produced is worthless. No art dealer or collector would pay a dime for it, nor would it win any prizes or awards or even a 'well done' from any teacher who appreciated art for art's own sake. If a dealer or collector or any of the others WOULD value it or appreciate it, THEN it could be said that it had merit.

It is wholly and solely the love between parent and child that causes the parent to perceive the worthless attempt at a picture as having any value at all. So the value is all attributes by the parent and none of the child's doing.

Hope that makes it clearer.
Ooh Lily. I love this analogy!
__________________


HOC EST ENIM CORPUS MEUM
Reply With Quote
  #101  
Old Apr 10, '12, 10:02 pm
LilyM's Avatar
LilyM LilyM is offline
Forum Elder
Forum Supporter
 
Join Date: February 1, 2006
Posts: 33,193
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: unconvert?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueLight View Post
Ooh Lily. I love this analogy!
Thanks. I have seven nieces and nephews, so get a lot of offerings from budding young artists
__________________

Christ The Lord Is Risen Today! Alleluia!!


God bless and keep our new Pope Francis - Viva il Papa!
Reply With Quote
  #102  
Old Apr 10, '12, 10:03 pm
ConstantineTG ConstantineTG is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: August 5, 2010
Posts: 17,409
Religion: ☦ Orthodox Christian ☦
Default Re: unconvert?

Quote:
Originally Posted by whisperer42 View Post
I feel kinda weird asking this but as someone who converted to Catholicism only a couple of years ago. Is it possible to unconvert?
I stopped attending catholic church after my first year, and would kind like to erase what happened... I know not really possible.

Outside of the baptism certificate is there anything else that would show I was a member? If I asked could I have the original baptism certificate?

Like I said it was for a very short time and I consider it a mistake.

Thank you.
Why so concerned about it? If you left the Church, why worry about your records? Does it change anything you have right now?
Reply With Quote
  #103  
Old Apr 10, '12, 10:05 pm
whisperer42 whisperer42 is offline
Trial Membership
 
Join Date: April 10, 2012
Posts: 57
Default Re: unconvert?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LilyM View Post
Because in and of itself what the child has produced is worthless. No art dealer or collector would pay a dime for it, nor would it win any prizes or awards or even a 'well done' from any teacher who appreciated art for art's own sake. If a dealer or collector or any of the others WOULD value it or appreciate it, THEN it could be said that it had merit.

It is wholly and solely the love between parent and child that causes the parent to perceive the worthless attempt at a picture as having any value at all. So the value is all attributes by the parent and none of the child's doing.

Hope that makes it clearer.
If someone gave you a million dollars and all you had to do was touch your nose. That is still merit.

Even if we had to do almost imposible works to receive the smallest amount of Gods favor we would still be making out like a bandit.
Reply With Quote
  #104  
Old Apr 10, '12, 10:06 pm
whisperer42 whisperer42 is offline
Trial Membership
 
Join Date: April 10, 2012
Posts: 57
Default Re: unconvert?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LilyM View Post
Thanks. I have seven nieces and nephews, so get a lot of offerings from budding young artists
Reply With Quote
  #105  
Old Apr 10, '12, 10:13 pm
LilyM's Avatar
LilyM LilyM is offline
Forum Elder
Forum Supporter
 
Join Date: February 1, 2006
Posts: 33,193
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: unconvert?

Quote:
Originally Posted by whisperer42 View Post
If someone gave you a million dollars and all you had to do was touch your nose. That is still merit.

Even if we had to do almost imposible works to receive the smallest amount of Gods favor we would still be making out like a bandit.
No, THAT is grace - an undeserved gift. Since we none of us deserve a million dollars for merely touching our nose!

And we certainly do not deserve salvation or any lesser good merely for the works we do - be they ever so good, they are in no way deserving of what we get from God in return.
__________________

Christ The Lord Is Risen Today! Alleluia!!


God bless and keep our new Pope Francis - Viva il Papa!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
8333Meet and talk,talk talk
Last by: suko
5083CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: tawny
4391Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: DesertSister62
4036OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: aellis422
3855SOLITUDE
Last by: beth40n2
3647Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: DesertSister62
3266Poems and Reflections
Last by: PathWalker
3231Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: Amiciel
3216Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: TheWhim
3079For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: georget



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 4:40 pm.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2014, Catholic Answers.