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  #91  
Old Apr 11, '12, 6:02 am
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Default Re: The Ark of the Covenant in the New Testament

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice View Post
I pray for people like that... based on the fact that Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would bring all that Jesus taught to remembrance and lead us into all truth.
And yet, by your paradigm of Sola Scriptura, there's now thousands of different denominations, each proclaiming that their own interpretations of Scripture are the correct ones.

And without any final authority on the interpretation of Scripture Christians now we have the chaos and confusion of all of these issues below having MULTIPLE interpretations of what God apparently desires.

• Abortion
• Attend weekly services, don't have to go to Church
• Baptism (sprinkling? Immersion? Infant? Adult? Sacrament? Ordinance? In Jesus’ name only? Using Trinitarian formula?)
• Charity or no charity (help one another or let them help themselves?)
• Church leadership, or no leadership
• Death/Soul Sleep
• Did Jesus use wine or grape juice at the Last Supper
• Divorce
• Drinking allowed, drinking not allowed
• Head coverings or no head coverings
• Health and wealth gospel
• Hell, or no hell
• Homosexuality
• Is God‘s Holy Name Jehovah
• Judge others, don't judge others
• Lord’s day on Saturday or Sunday
• Music or no music (Singing or no singing)
• Once saved, always saved
• Ordination
• Predestination
• Rapture
• Sola scriptura/private interpretation
• The Eucharist (Communion)
• Tongues (some believe others are not saved if they don't speak in tongues)
• Trinity vs. Unitarianism
• What's a sin, what is not a sin
• When to celebrate the Lord’s Day
• Women pastors, no women pastors
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  #92  
Old Apr 11, '12, 6:09 am
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Default Re: The Ark of the Covenant in the New Testament

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Originally Posted by 1voice View Post
Because of statements like this ... that are not made about Peter or Paul or any other Christian:

“O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, obtains salvation except through thee, none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee.” (Leo XIII: Encycl., Adiutricem populi, September 5, 1895.) — [p. 12, no. 13]
___________________________________
“Mary is all powerful with her divine Son who grants all graces to mankind through her ...” (Benedict XV: Encyclical, Fausto appetente die, June 29, 1921.) [p. 59; no. 244]

_______________________________
“With equal truth it may be said that of the great treasury of all graces given to us by Our Lord—for grace and truth came by Jesus Christ—nothing comes to us except through Mary’s mediation, for such is God’s Will. Thus, as no man goes to the Father but by the Son, so no one goes to Christ except through his mother.” (Leo XIII, Encycl., Octobri mense, September 22, 1891.) — [pp. 13,14, no. 19]
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“Are you hoping one day to reach Paradise through the grace of perseverance in the last moment of your lives? Are you trusting to die in the grace of God? This grace also will come to you, as those devoted to Mary, through a smile of hers, as a ray from that Sun.” (Pius XII: Radio message, December 8, 1953.) [p. 83; no. 383.]
As we stated earlier, all of this is only through Mary's fiat and acknowledgement that it is only through the power of God and His authority.

If you don't have a problem with Paul saying the HE SAVES US
(yes, non-Catholic folks, Paul really does say that HE SAVES US)
and you're not indignant about that, then why get so aghast about Catholics saying the above things about Mary? Those things PALE in comparison to Paul saying that HE SAVES.
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  #93  
Old Apr 11, '12, 6:59 am
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Default Re: The Ark of the Covenant in the New Testament

I agree with lets proceed in Charity.

In light of history we cannot overlook what has transpired from 1850 foward. Most I suspect for a simple lack of research or to promote ones own agenda in the world of religion today, in this case Christianity.

I don't find Sola Scriptura to be a false path, I do find that it ignores a very real History in not only the CC but all the Apostolic Churchs. There's no contesting the Bible is the very real Inspired Word of God. However as it clearly states all cannot be included within, nor was it ever intended to be. Nor is it with the history of the Churchs.

History doesn't ignore this reality. Should one conclude they have no desire to research and would like to proceed with a Bible only sola scriptura theology. I say Amen.

I do take issue when one reachs this point and begins to view 2000 years of History in the battle of Good and evil as heresy.

These Apostolic Churchs, its Saints and martyrs are what withstood the assault of evil from day one, and continue to do so this very day..

St Paul is a topic within himself, for sure. Much debated over the centuries, he has to be read within context of the Gospels/Church. For that church Christ established is what He followed. No question about it.



.

Peace
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"Eternal Father, I offer Thee the Most Precious Blood of Thy Divine Son, Jesus, in union with the Masses said throughout the world today, for all the Holy Souls in Purgatory, for sinners everywhere, for sinners in the universal church, those in my own home and within my family. Amen." St. Gertrude
  #94  
Old Apr 11, '12, 7:16 am
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Default Re: The Ark of the Covenant in the New Testament

Quote:
Originally Posted by SMA_12 View Post
Please watch this video. It is pretty hard to deny Mary was the Ark of the New Covenant. There is plenty of scriptural evidence.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=kUdYeYy3NQA
First time I seen this, interesting.

Thanks for posting.
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"Eternal Father, I offer Thee the Most Precious Blood of Thy Divine Son, Jesus, in union with the Masses said throughout the world today, for all the Holy Souls in Purgatory, for sinners everywhere, for sinners in the universal church, those in my own home and within my family. Amen." St. Gertrude
  #95  
Old Apr 11, '12, 8:22 am
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Post Re: The Ark of the Covenant in the New Testament

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice View Post
Because of statements like this ... that are not made about Peter or Paul or any other Christian:

“O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, obtains salvation except through thee, none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee.” (Leo XIII: Encycl., Adiutricem populi, September 5, 1895.) — [p. 12, no. 13]
___________________________________
“Mary is all powerful with her divine Son who grants all graces to mankind through her ...” (Benedict XV: Encyclical, Fausto appetente die, June 29, 1921.) [p. 59; no. 244]

_______________________________
“With equal truth it may be said that of the great treasury of all graces given to us by Our Lord—for grace and truth came by Jesus Christ—nothing comes to us except through Mary’s mediation, for such is God’s Will. Thus, as no man goes to the Father but by the Son, so no one goes to Christ except through his mother.” (Leo XIII, Encycl., Octobri mense, September 22, 1891.) — [pp. 13,14, no. 19]
___________________

“Are you hoping one day to reach Paradise through the grace of perseverance in the last moment of your lives? Are you trusting to die in the grace of God? This grace also will come to you, as those devoted to Mary, through a smile of hers, as a ray from that Sun.” (Pius XII: Radio message, December 8, 1953.) [p. 83; no. 383.]
1voice - you basically just cut & paste from this anti-Catholic website.

I don't have time to go through each quote, but you are deliberately distorting the message. For example, the quote from Leo XIII's encyclical omits the preceding sentence:

Quote:
Since faith is the foundation, the source, of the gifts of God by which man is raised above the order of nature and is endowed with the dispositions requisite for life eternal, we are in justice bound to recognize the hidden influence of Mary in obtaining the gift of faith and its salutary cultivation-of Mary who brought the "author of faith" into this world and who, because of her own great faith, was called "blessed."
Context is important. And when the truth is deliberately distorted to fit a narrative it's dishonest. Dishonesty is the moral equivalent of lying. Satan is the father of lies. And, as we know...

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  #96  
Old Apr 11, '12, 8:33 am
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Default Re: The Ark of the Covenant in the New Testament

Quote:
Originally Posted by stewstew03 View Post
1voice - you basically just cut & paste from this anti-Catholic website.

I don't have time to go through each quote, but you are deliberately distorting the message. For example, the quote from Leo XIII's encyclical omits the preceding sentence:



Context is important. And when the truth is deliberately distorted to fit a narrative it's dishonest. Dishonesty is the moral equivalent of lying. Satan is the father of lies. And, as we know...


Oh boy. now we have to "actually" pay attention now?
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"Eternal Father, I offer Thee the Most Precious Blood of Thy Divine Son, Jesus, in union with the Masses said throughout the world today, for all the Holy Souls in Purgatory, for sinners everywhere, for sinners in the universal church, those in my own home and within my family. Amen." St. Gertrude
  #97  
Old Apr 11, '12, 8:40 am
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Default Re: The Ark of the Covenant in the New Testament

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark a View Post
According to Radical, is it heresy for anyone to think of Mary as the ark of the new covenant?
it is reading into scripture an idea/belief that is not actually there...people do that sort of thing all the time. I wouldn't call it a heresy. The problem is compounded when one utilizes that addition (to the meaning of scripture) to build doctrine/dogma. The problem is further compounded when such doctrine/dogms is declared to be a required belief.
  #98  
Old Apr 11, '12, 8:50 am
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Default Re: The Ark of the Covenant in the New Testament

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Originally Posted by IggyAntiochus View Post
About 200 or so years. Which, incidentally, is much shorter than the amount of time it took them to figure out that...

Baptism should not be applied to infants..

Baptism doesn't save..

The Supper is not the true Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ..

God does not grant forgiveness through Holy Absolution..

So, if we go by a time frame for how long it took the Church to figure something out..the ark of the new covenant typology has a pretty good pedigree in comparison!
so the pedigree is that it is an earlier (rather than a later) addition to the original deposit of faith?

I don't care if it was the first or the last thing to be added...what is important is that it was an addition (and I have no reason to believe that it was an inspired addition). As to your other points, I only care if those things were believed/done at the start...and if so, then they should be restored
  #99  
Old Apr 11, '12, 8:52 am
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beehumble beehumble is offline
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Default Re: The Ark of the Covenant in the New Testament

1) Actually in the typological sense, it is there.
2) Not everything is in the New Testament. The New Testament did not exist first; the Church existed first, without the New Testament.

People should try to get their head's around that fact and what that fact means for the Church and its beliefs. To do this, take away the New Testament out of your Bible and see what you get. For one thing, without the New Testament a Catholic still retains the Mass and the seven Sacraments and the priest-leaders; they retain the Church because it existed w/o a "New Testament" existing. Jesus didn't hand the Apostles a book to read, some kind of instruction manual. He taught them the Gospel and the sacraments and other duties, and He sent them out two by two to practice evangelizing that Gospel message once He was gone. And the Catholic Church has grown that way ever since. Most protestant services are structured around the New Testament - take that away and it seems there would be no protestant service. The Church came first, then the New Testament, and not everything was written down in the New Testament because there was no need to write it all down - it is not and never was a catechism.

And things are not added to the deposit of the faith in that sense. Our understanding of what God placed in that deposit deepens with more and more study of the deep layers of the revelation of God to man.

God bless you.
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Last edited by beehumble; Apr 11, '12 at 9:11 am.
  #100  
Old Apr 11, '12, 8:53 am
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Default Re: The Ark of the Covenant in the New Testament

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Originally Posted by Radical View Post
required belief.
Big issue. Another one that took me decades to actually swallow. Obedience
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"Eternal Father, I offer Thee the Most Precious Blood of Thy Divine Son, Jesus, in union with the Masses said throughout the world today, for all the Holy Souls in Purgatory, for sinners everywhere, for sinners in the universal church, those in my own home and within my family. Amen." St. Gertrude
  #101  
Old Apr 11, '12, 9:26 am
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Default Re: The Ark of the Covenant in the New Testament

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Originally Posted by GaryTaylor View Post
Big issue. Another one that took me decades to actually swallow. Obedience
Same big issue...did you swallow error and are you therefore obedient to a leadership which is no more infallible than the Pharisees?
  #102  
Old Apr 11, '12, 9:39 am
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Default Re: The Ark of the Covenant in the New Testament

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Originally Posted by beehumble View Post
1) Actually in the typological sense, it is there.
with that type of "typology" almost anything could be read between the lines...including all the Mormon claims

Quote:
2) Not everything is in the New Testament.
this bald assertion needs to be proven...what evidence do you have that the apostles taught anything of significance that it not included in the OT and the NT?

Quote:
The New Testament did not exist first; the Church existed first, without the New Testament.
the truth existed first...the NT represents a reduction of the truth to writing...the fact that the order is truth/teaching => church => NT does not establish that the church possesses extrabiblical truth/teaching

Quote:
For one thing, without the New Testament a Catholic still retains the Mass and the seven Sacraments and the priest-leaders...
and that is part of the problem...the early church didn't have priests....except for the believers that served in the Temple.


Quote:
He taught them the Gospel and the sacraments and other duties,...
"sacraments"...now there is a word that Christ didn't use.

Quote:
The Church came first, then the New Testament, and not everything was written down in the New Testament because there was no need to write it all down - ...
some proof? claiming that if something was believed in the 3rd century, then it must have been taught by the apostles doesn't do it...even if you want to claim that the teaching "deepened" over that time period



Quote:
God bless you.
and you
  #103  
Old Apr 11, '12, 9:39 am
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Default Re: The Ark of the Covenant in the New Testament

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Originally Posted by Radical View Post
Same big issue...did you swallow error and are you therefore obedient to a leadership which is no more infallible than the Pharisees?
I don't see error, I see extreme theology/philosophy that makes me think. What I don't know for sure. I error in favor of the church's and always, compare with the other Apostolic Churchs etc.

These guys been out here fighting evil for 2000 years.
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"Eternal Father, I offer Thee the Most Precious Blood of Thy Divine Son, Jesus, in union with the Masses said throughout the world today, for all the Holy Souls in Purgatory, for sinners everywhere, for sinners in the universal church, those in my own home and within my family. Amen." St. Gertrude
  #104  
Old Apr 11, '12, 9:49 am
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Default Re: The Ark of the Covenant in the New Testament

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These guys been out here fighting evil for 2000 years.
if you looked at the history of the church w/o rose coloured glasses on, then you would see that these guys were also the cause of evil far too often...some error in their behavior and some error in their teachings. would seem to be the obvious and consistent expectation
  #105  
Old Apr 11, '12, 10:00 am
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Default Re: The Ark of the Covenant in the New Testament

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if you looked at the history of the church w/o rose coloured glasses on, then you would see that these guys were also the cause of evil far too often...some error in their behavior and some error in their teachings. would seem to be the obvious and consistent expectation
If you look at the bloodline of Jesus you see sinners and Saints. A Zig Zag through time, history, temporal rulers, and a lack of communication. But theres many truths which weave through all this in History with the Apostles Churchs. Mary is without doubt one.
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"Eternal Father, I offer Thee the Most Precious Blood of Thy Divine Son, Jesus, in union with the Masses said throughout the world today, for all the Holy Souls in Purgatory, for sinners everywhere, for sinners in the universal church, those in my own home and within my family. Amen." St. Gertrude
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