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  #16  
Old Apr 11, '12, 11:07 am
Splagchnizomai Splagchnizomai is offline
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Default Re: Romanian married GC priests not welcome in Italy's Churches

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillip Rolfes View Post
As was pointed out above, it was just such a decision among the Latin bishops in the U.S. that led to the formation of the Orthodox Church in America. Had the Latin bishops embraced their Eastern Catholic brethren and educated their faithful on the discipline of married clergy in the East, it is entirely possible that the OCA wouldn't have been formed.
I am aware of this history, but there's no way to know if it could have turned out differently had events been handled differently. This is pure speculation, and it is being used to take shots at the Italian Bishops.

I know that I am taking an unpopular stance by supporting these bishops, especially in this subforum, which is often very charitable to Roman Catholics. I do not see this charity happening so far.
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  #17  
Old Apr 11, '12, 11:11 am
Phillip Rolfes Phillip Rolfes is offline
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Default Re: Romanian married GC priests not welcome in Italy's Churches

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Originally Posted by Splagchnizomai View Post
I am aware of this history, but there's no way to know if it could have turned out differently had events been handled differently. This is pure speculation, and it is being used to take shots at the Italian Bishops.

I know that I am taking an unpopular stance by supporting these bishops, especially in this subforum, which is often very charitable to Roman Catholics. I do not see this charity happening so far.
The fact of the matter is that these Italian Bishops do not have the authority to limit the function of married Romanian Catholic priests in Italy. Those priests fall directly under the authority of the Romanian Synod/Conference of Bishops headed by their Major-Archbishop (or Patriarch, if you prefer).

The problem here is that history is simply being repeated. There is also the problem of "double-speak," as has been pointed out. On the one hand Rome has been calling for the Eastern Churches to return to their authentic identity. On the other hand we meet resistance coming either from Rome directly, or from Roman authorities, at every step of the way.
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  #18  
Old Apr 11, '12, 11:12 am
Phillip Rolfes Phillip Rolfes is offline
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Default Re: Romanian married GC priests not welcome in Italy's Churches

Incidentally, if memory serves me correctly this issue was resolved in favor of the married Romanian priests. Can anyone confirm or deny this for me?
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  #19  
Old Apr 11, '12, 11:22 am
Splagchnizomai Splagchnizomai is offline
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Default Re: Romanian married GC priests not welcome in Italy's Churches

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Originally Posted by Phillip Rolfes View Post
The fact of the matter is that these Italian Bishops do not have the authority to limit the function of married Romanian Catholic priests in Italy. Those priests fall directly under the authority of the Romanian Synod/Conference of Bishops headed by their Major-Archbishop (or Patriarch, if you prefer).

The problem here is that history is simply being repeated. There is also the problem of "double-speak," as has been pointed out. On the one hand Rome has been calling for the Eastern Churches to return to their authentic identity. On the other hand we meet resistance coming either from Rome directly, or from Roman authorities, at every step of the way.
If they are assisting in Roman Catholic Churches, I would guess that the Italian Bishops have a right to restrict them.

Please, do not bash these Bishops with one perspective of history, or by calling them or their parishoners ignorant, or by saying they don't know what they are doing. Pray for them and treat them charitably.
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  #20  
Old Apr 11, '12, 11:23 am
Splagchnizomai Splagchnizomai is offline
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Default Re: Romanian married GC priests not welcome in Italy's Churches

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Originally Posted by Phillip Rolfes View Post
Incidentally, if memory serves me correctly this issue was resolved in favor of the married Romanian priests. Can anyone confirm or deny this for me?
So, this is old news?
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  #21  
Old Apr 11, '12, 11:25 am
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Nine_Two Nine_Two is offline
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Default Re: Romanian married GC priests not welcome in Italy's Churches

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Originally Posted by Jakub View Post
Yes by all means, return and observe your traditions, but...confine them to your Bishop's jurisdictional area.

Double speak...
Does this mean you support the Latin Church backing out of areas that were occupied by Eastern Churches first? Greece, Romania, Croatia, Alaska, Czech Republic, et al.?


When I read stories like this I can't help but think of that wonderful time when the Normans closed down all the Eastern Churches in (until then Greek majority) Naples.
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  #22  
Old Apr 11, '12, 11:38 am
dcointin dcointin is offline
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Default Re: Romanian married GC priests not welcome in Italy's Churches

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Originally Posted by Nine_Two View Post
Does this mean you support the Latin Church backing out of areas that were occupied by Eastern Churches first? Greece, Romania, Croatia, Alaska, Czech Republic, et al.?


When I read stories like this I can't help but think of that wonderful time when the Normans closed down all the Eastern Churches in (until then Greek majority) Naples.
Just remember that we've done the same things in the past.
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  #23  
Old Apr 11, '12, 11:39 am
couponfit couponfit is offline
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Default Re: Romanian married GC priests not welcome in Italy's Churches

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Originally Posted by Alexander Roman View Post
I have learned that the Italian Conference of Bishops have forbidden married Romanian Greek-Catholic priests from assisting in Italy's churches.

The reason given was that this would cause "confusion" in the minds of the faithful etc.

One would have thought that the confusion has already been sown via the Latin clergy scandals . . .

What does the Vox Populi here say?

Alex
As a lay RC, I have seen historically that such actions only serve to cause tension and rifts between the RC and our EC brothers and sisters. Let us not forget what happened to the American Ruthenian church.
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  #24  
Old Apr 11, '12, 12:15 pm
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Nine_Two Nine_Two is offline
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Default Re: Romanian married GC priests not welcome in Italy's Churches

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Originally Posted by dcointin View Post
Just remember that we've done the same things in the past.
I can think of one or two tit-for-tat occurrences, but not a case where Western Priests and their parishes were shut down just because it is easier that way.
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  #25  
Old Apr 11, '12, 12:43 pm
Hesychios Hesychios is offline
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Smile Re: Romanian married GC priests not welcome in Italy's Churches

Quote:
Originally Posted by Splagchnizomai View Post
If they are assisting in Roman Catholic Churches, I would guess that the Italian Bishops have a right to restrict them.
You have a point.

It takes understanding the ecclesiology of the Roman Catholic church in Italy.

Normally, if a church has a congregation outside of it's home territory and the Pope has not set up a hierarchy for it in the diaspora, the local ordinary is reponsible for the pastoral care of the minority community. They do not have to set up a parish for the immigrants if they personally do not see a need for it.

If they do recognize a need and wish to serve it, they will ask a diocese from that church to send a priest. According to this news item, the Latin bishops of Italy have decided as a group to ban married priests from coming from Romania and serving in any diocese of Italy. If memory serves I think they did something similar about Ukrainian priests a few years ago (if I am correct, this would be a separate incident from the banning of UGCC priests from Poland).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splagchnizomai View Post
Please, do not bash these Bishops with one perspective of history, or by calling them or their parishoners ignorant, or by saying they don't know what they are doing. Pray for them and treat them charitably.
No bashing, this is just a live-wire issue wirth the eastern churches.
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  #26  
Old Apr 11, '12, 1:44 pm
Alexander Roman Alexander Roman is offline
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Default Re: Romanian married GC priests not welcome in Italy's Churches

As someone of part Italian background, I am not about bashing Italian bishops (or Italians of any other rank for that matter).

For the ricorda . . .

Alessio
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  #27  
Old Apr 11, '12, 2:06 pm
5Loaves 5Loaves is offline
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Default Re: Romanian married GC priests not welcome in Italy's Churches

I thought someone had resurrected an old thread when I saw this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillip Rolfes View Post
I agree with Hesychios. I believe the bishops are giving less credit to their faithful than they ought to be. Explaining married clergy is not really that difficult. It's an insult to folks' intelligence to simply say, "It'll cause confusion/scandal," and not provide any real explanation as to why there are married priests in the Eastern Churches (or even in the Latin Church in some cases).

Most Latin Catholics that I know realize full well that celibacy within the priesthood is a discipline, not a dogma. Sadly the discipline has been so theologized and become so engrained in the Latin identity that it has almost become dogma. Education and catechesis are very much needed.
Well said (as was the read of your post).

It's my understanding that in the US there are currently actually more married priests in the Latin Church, and a goodly number in training for ordination now with the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter, than we have married priests in our ECCs.

Quote:
As of January 1, 2012, over 100 Anglican priests have applied to become Catholic priests for the ordinariate. This is a multi-stage process; to date, 47 have been accepted for the second stage of the process. Most of them will begin their formation course to become a Catholic priest in early 2012.
(Possibly not all of those 100 are married but surely the vast majority are)
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  #28  
Old Apr 11, '12, 5:15 pm
Byz Guy Byz Guy is offline
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Default Re: Romanian married GC priests not welcome in Italy's Churches

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Originally Posted by Phillip Rolfes View Post
Incidentally, if memory serves me correctly this issue was resolved in favor of the married Romanian priests. Can anyone confirm or deny this for me?
No, the situation still stands in Italy. As someone else already reported, there is no parallel hierarchy in place for Eastern Catholics in Italy. So, parishes which serve Romanian and Ukrainian Catholics in Italy are under Latin Bishops. The Romanian Catholic Major Archibishop/Patriarch made the request of the Italian Episcopal Conference to allow married priests from Romania to come into Italy to serve their parishes but the request was refused.

However, even if a parallel hierarchy is set up someday in Italy, it is unlikely there would be married priests sent into Italy from Romania (or Ukraine) to serve Eastern Catholic parishes there.

Last November, Catholic News Service reported on the procedures of allowing the ordination of married men to the priesthood for Eastern Catholics outside of their traditional territories:

http://www.cnewa.org/default.aspx?ID...de=HQ&pageno=1

Quote:
Archbishop Cyril Vasil, secretary of the Congregation for Eastern Churches, told CNS in Rome that the Vatican reconfirmed the general ban in 2008, “but in individual cases, in consultation with the national bishops’ conference, a dispensation can be given” allowing the ordination.
This was also reported on by the Italian news media when discussing the Romanian Catholic/Italian Episcopal Conference conflict:

http://www.adistaonline.it/index.php...PSESSID=85ded5

Quote:
On 20 February 2008, the regular meeting of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith reaffirmed the validity of the norm of a binding obligation of celibacy for priests of Eastern Catholic Churches who exercise the ministry outside the canonical territory. The pope, however, has given the Congregation for the Eastern Churches the authority to give a dispensation from this norm, with the approval of the Episcopal Conference in question.
So, *if* the Latin-Rite Episcopal Conference of a particular nation does not object, then dispensations can be applied for from the Eastern Congregation in Rome for the ordination of a married Eastern Catholic priest. So, countries such as Italy might not see the allowance of married Eastern Catholic priests for quite awhile if there is objections to this tradition by the Latin Bishops -- even if a parallel hierarchy were to be set up.

The US and Canada's Latin Rite Conferences do not object to the ordination of married men in Eastern Churches. That's why we've been seeing an increase of married Eastern Catholic priests in the US and Canada the past couple of decades. So, all that is required here is for the dispensation from Rome. See, for example, Program for Priestly Formation:

http://old.usccb.org/vocations/Progr...yFormation.pdf

Quote:
An applicant for the priesthood must testify that he is not married or, if he is married, he has the approval of the Holy See. If an Eastern Catholic candidate is married, a certificate of marriage is required along with the written consent of his wife (CCEO, c. 769§1, 2°) and the approval of the Apostolic See…” (Program of Priestly Formation, 5th edition, 2006, paragraph 66)
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  #29  
Old Apr 11, '12, 5:39 pm
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Peter J Peter J is offline
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Post Re: Romanian married GC priests not welcome in Italy's Churches

Could someone please post a link to a news article? Thanks.
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  #30  
Old Apr 11, '12, 5:43 pm
Byz Guy Byz Guy is offline
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Default Re: Romanian married GC priests not welcome in Italy's Churches

Here is an Italian news article on the Romanian Catholic situation in Italy:

http://www.adistaonline.it/index.php...PSESSID=85ded5

You'll need an online translator to get it into English.
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