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  #16  
Old Apr 11, '12, 2:51 am
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po18guy po18guy is offline
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Default Re: Did Mary (The Mother of our Savior) Need a Savior?

Certain former members, who shall remain nameless, appear to believe that God is completely random and was just going door-to-door on planet earth looking for a surrogate mother for His Son when he stumbled into Mary. Ugh!

Such theology is like a river that is a mile wide and an inch deep. It is nothing that you can dive into without hurting your head.
  #17  
Old Apr 11, '12, 4:58 am
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Eric Hilbert Eric Hilbert is offline
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Default Re: Did Mary (The Mother of our Savior) Need a Savior?

The funs over.
Troll gone.
Return to the program.
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  #18  
Old Apr 11, '12, 5:02 am
rinnie rinnie is offline
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Default Re: Did Mary (The Mother of our Savior) Need a Savior?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice View Post
As a Catholic kid ... I heard the prayer/song at least a thousand times... Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.

If, as the words indicate, Mary was without sin, the logical conclusion is that she was not in need of a Savior.

Input?
Also you are making many false claims against the CC. Can you tell us the prayer and the song you accuse the Church of teaching!

Now if you are speaking of the novena, it plainly states that yes Mary is Free from sin, how is that possible you ask, simply she was saved at the moment of her conception.

So if she was saved from sin at the moment of her conception is she conceived with sin then? HOW? Can you explain that to us.

Or if the Church and the Apostles teach it correctly she is conceived without sin. Because if she was saved at the MOMENT of her conception how did sin touch her?

Now you feel it is logical to say if she was free from sin she did not need a savior. But the Church teaches differently. Why would they teach she WAS saved at the moment of her conception by the grace and merits of her Son, if she did not need a Savior?

And why does the Church teach the Immaculate Conception then? Why is it needed? If she had not be saved from sin why the Immaculate Conception?

So maybe you are the one not being logical here!

Last edited by rinnie; Apr 11, '12 at 5:13 am.
  #19  
Old Apr 11, '12, 9:17 am
david ruiz david ruiz is offline
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Default Re: Did Mary (The Mother of our Savior) Need a Savior?

[quote=rinnie;9167914]
Quote:
Do you really think God would bring his Son into the world in a corrupt body?[/
Absolutely.That He wouldn't sounds a lot like some cults, religions where all flesh is evil and can not mix with good spirit/divinty. The apostle Paul and Augustine had to deal with such thoughts ( not referencing Mary ,but would Christ really come in the flesh).Does Christ not inhabit your corruptible flesh ? You limit His being fully man ,like you or I. It is far more gracious that indeed He came into a sinful world ,took on corruptible flesh (that is ,mortal), died while we were yet sinners,and inhabits us ,His Temples. Are you saying Mary's jewish faith , belief in the promise of the Messiah,did not justify her ,cleanse her from all unrighteousness- ALL BEFORE THE ANNUNCIATION ? How was Enoch .Abraham etc justified .saved ,cleansed ? How are we ? ALL scripture tells us is that she was full of grace my friend,and in biblical conntext it is not "sinless or free from original sin.This is not biblical nor was it even tradition in the first century church.
  #20  
Old Apr 11, '12, 10:41 am
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Rothbardcatholi Rothbardcatholi is offline
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Default Re: Did Mary (The Mother of our Savior) Need a Savior?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice View Post
As a Catholic kid ... I heard the prayer/song at least a thousand times... Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.

If, as the words indicate, Mary was without sin, the logical conclusion is that she was not in need of a Savior.

Input?
Yes, Mary needed a savior. The Catholic position is that Mary was saved in an anticipatory manner. Think of two people walking along the same trail, toward the same rattlesnake. One person steps on the snake, is bitten and needs an antidote. The person who gives him the antidote is his savior. Another person walking along the same road would have stepped on the same rattlesnake, but the Savior prevents that from occurring. So this second person was also saved, but in a different manner. Because Mary was to be the anti-type of Eve and the new Virgin Soil from which the New Adam would be taken, she was saved from sin in this way. Here is a video explaining the basics of Catholic teaching on Mary from the writings of the second century bishop St. Irenaeus of Lyon:

<object style="height: 390px; width: 640px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/G4opGSrTB04?version=3&feature=player_det ailpage"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/G4opGSrTB04?version=3&feature=player_det ailpage" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="360"></object>

Here's the link, in case it won't embed:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4opG...1&feature=plcp
  #21  
Old Apr 11, '12, 11:25 am
david ruiz david ruiz is offline
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Default Re: Did Mary (The Mother of our Savior) Need a Savior?

[u]
Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryTaylor View Post
Did you not hear what the early church fathers said about this in your Catholic childhood?

Well you must have heard what Martin Luther said?

It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary's soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very
infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God's gifts, receiving a pure soul
infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin" (Sermon: "On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God, 1527 Luther).

You've been reading way to many fast google protestant sights which teach a new history from 1850 foward. There is only One Word of God. The Truth was the Truth is the Truth, its doesn't change. And you can take this to the bank. It surely didn't change in 1850.

Mary was more in need of the Savior than anyone.

Peace
Thank-you. Yes , it's true you'll find many protetstants with Catholic views on Mary. You will also find many Catholics thru the ages with different views.This is why it almost took two thousand years to fully clarify or speak infallibly on the matter (with more to come in the future ,many hope). As far as Luther, well He was quite the Catholic before his 95 points, so it would only be logical that he retain some of his Catholic views, after all, he did not post 471 points etc. .Luther, like Lazarus who came out of the grave, fully alive, still stank and was not fully clean, but alive yes.
  #22  
Old Apr 11, '12, 11:30 am
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stewstew03 stewstew03 is offline
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Post Re: Did Mary (The Mother of our Savior) Need a Savior?

[quote=david ruiz;9169509]
Quote:
Originally Posted by rinnie View Post
Absolutely.That He wouldn't sounds a lot like some cults, religions where all flesh is evil and can not mix with good spirit/divinity....This is not biblical nor was it even tradition in the first century church.
david, you are re-writing Jewish custom/history. Evil can never approach Holiness without experiencing death.





Holiness means "set apart." It cannot "mix" with evil.
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  #23  
Old Apr 11, '12, 11:36 am
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KathleenGee KathleenGee is offline
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Default Re: Did Mary (The Mother of our Savior) Need a Savior?

1voice....

That is a most thoughtful question of you....Mary was 'saved' at her conception, God created her without sin...remember, Christ had the Beatific Vision even within her womb...

Mary gave birth to the Savior to the world. Being in union with God is our aim. But without Christ fulfilling His mission, along with us, Mary would not be able to enter heaven as well.
  #24  
Old Apr 11, '12, 11:41 am
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GaryTaylor GaryTaylor is offline
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Default Re: Did Mary (The Mother of our Savior) Need a Savior?

Quote:
Originally Posted by david ruiz View Post
Luther, like Lazarus who came out of the grave, fully alive, still stank and was not fully clean, but alive yes.
No sure what stink your referring to? I'm confused do enlighten me.
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  #25  
Old Apr 11, '12, 11:44 am
couponfit couponfit is offline
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Default Re: Did Mary (The Mother of our Savior) Need a Savior?

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Originally Posted by Tietjen View Post
Yes, Mary needed and had a Savior. It's like this... if a child playing near a pool falls in but is then rescued by her father, she has been saved. However, if her father places a wall around the pool so that the child cannot fall in, she has also been saved. God is outside of time and He saved Mary before she fell into the pool.
Yes, very good example. Mary is saved prior to falling into original sin by Christ at her conception.
  #26  
Old Apr 11, '12, 2:29 pm
david ruiz david ruiz is offline
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Default Re: Did Mary (The Mother of our Savior) Need a Savior?

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by stewstew03 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by david ruiz View Post

david, you are re-writing Jewish custom/history. Evil can never approach Holiness without experiencing death.





Holiness means "set apart." It cannot "mix" with evil.
Appreciate your thoughts .Never said evil and holiness mix. Where does it say the physical universe and flesh .in and of itself, is evil ? .Yes it is fallen, awaits renewal but it was all good in the beginning .You rightly state, well flesh (you say evil as if flesh =evil ) , can not approach holiness without "death". Indeed we die in Christ and are raised in Him in newness ,by faith, we are born again ,are His temple (my carbon, fleshly atoms are His temple). Holiness and flesh "mix" do they not ? Paul makes it very clear salvation was by faith in the old testament also. They looked forward to Christ as we look back to Calvary for both our spiritual "genesis". Was there not interaction between Holiness and man in the O.T. by this process (quite Jewish) ,making unnecessary for "special" dispensation for Mary to have "interaction", mixing with God..
  #27  
Old Apr 11, '12, 2:38 pm
david ruiz david ruiz is offline
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Default Re: Did Mary (The Mother of our Savior) Need a Savior?

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Originally Posted by GaryTaylor View Post
No sure what stink your referring to? I'm confused do enlighten me.
Sorry .When Lazarus came forth he was "bound" ,in burial cloth. Jesus could have brought him out unbound and sparkling but he did not ,Believers (the family and friends of Lazarus) had to get really close to him to unbound him and as the sister said ,"by now he surely stinketh'-John 11;39 .The inference is he needed unbounding and probable washing .
  #28  
Old Apr 11, '12, 2:41 pm
PumpkinSeed PumpkinSeed is offline
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Default Re: Did Mary (The Mother of our Savior) Need a Savior?

I don't know. I don't really know if she was sinful or not. I know the church teaches that she wasn't, and I do agree that she was probably a spectacular woman, but to say she never sinned, not even once is a bit of a stretch to me. If she did sin, I do not care. It obviously didn't have any bad outcome if she did because Jesus was fine to me.
  #29  
Old Apr 11, '12, 2:46 pm
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JharekCarnelian JharekCarnelian is offline
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Default Re: Did Mary (The Mother of our Savior) Need a Savior?

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Originally Posted by PumpkinSeed View Post
I don't know. I don't really know if she was sinful or not. I know the church teaches that she wasn't, and I do agree that she was probably a spectacular woman, but to say she never sinned, not even once is a bit of a stretch to me. If she did sin, I do not care. It obviously didn't have any bad outcome if she did because Jesus was fine to me.
The theotokos is rather more than a spectacular woman, she is the new Eve. Thus she fulfills all the potential that Eve had. She is the most important woman to have ever lived in all of human history.
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  #30  
Old Apr 11, '12, 2:56 pm
david ruiz david ruiz is offline
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Default Re: Did Mary (The Mother of our Savior) Need a Savior?

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Originally Posted by po18guy View Post
Yet, sin is passed through the blood. There is no scriptural explanation for how Jesus was spared the sinful nature that is passed through the blood. Since scripture tells us in many places that it is not complete, the explanation lies outside of scripture.
Thanks but it reminds me of another time we discussed this on another thread .Not sure if sin is passed thru "blood' as you say as if sin is traveling in our red blood cells.The thought was does not the unborn child have their own blood, separate from the mother ? Is dna evil ? (what Mary supplied). Just how much did they "mix" ? Certainly the mother provides nutrients, but did they need special dispensation ?
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