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  #46  
Old Apr 12, '12, 4:40 pm
Qoeleth Qoeleth is offline
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Default Re: Marital Foreplay and Sex

Such issues are for private conscience, and arguably not appropriately discussed publicly. Maybe this is why the Church has no teachings on this matter.
  #47  
Old Apr 12, '12, 4:52 pm
underacloud underacloud is offline
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Default Re: Marital Foreplay and Sex

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Originally Posted by TheRealJuliane View Post
OK, I see she did say in her first post that he is not climaxing during their sexual acts. Sorry for assuming that oral sex would lead to a finish...I don't know very many men who could then just go about their day without a heck of a lot of sexual tension and/or pain.
Yes, quite apart from the question of morality of such activities, I think this sort of behaviour can really cause great discomfort for a man (I know this well). It is natural for married couples to want to be intimate, and the fertile phase of NFP becomes a difficult balancing act of remaining affectionate with your spouse while avoiding going too far. Earlier in our marriage, we often "affectionately cuddled" during this phase, but it left us both (especially me as the man) feeling frustrated and in my case physically uncomfortable. Later in our marriage, we simply avoid being overly physically affectionate in this phase and try to show our affection in other ways.

As for the morality of it, I agree with what Bookcat has said earlier, although I concede it's not something that you'll find directly addressed in Church teaching (the Church doesn't give us instructions regarding every detail of our lives). But I agree that foreplay is something done in preparation for intercourse, within the one marital act. It is not something done days ahead of intercourse. Just because it may be hard to define - the timeframe for foreplay - doesn't mean that any timeframe is acceptable. Think of a meal: I may eat an entree before my main meal, as part of the meal; I may even eat many entrees as part of a degustation meal; but I couldn't properly say that the sandwich I ate for lunch was an entree to the meal I ate for dinner.
  #48  
Old Apr 12, '12, 5:36 pm
Bookcat Bookcat is online now
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Default Re: Marital Foreplay and Sex

Quote:
Originally Posted by NFP1Kate View Post
I wanted to thank you all for posting, those that were in agreement and those that aren't.

I am truly doing the best that I can to be a faithful Catholic. I am tired of hearing one priest say something is ok, and then another saying it is not. I have become skeptical of advice and stopped seeking it. I wanted original documents, because I felt it was the only way I could understand the truth.

This afternoon, my husband has said he is "deeply disheartened" by this. He wants to engage in sexual activity throughout the month. We need to discover what is permissible during phase 2 and what is not. I do not understand how anyone can determine that sexual activity within marriage is sinful- even the Church. What did married people do before TOB then?

This is an area to be treated by Orthodox Catholic Moral Theology....the Church does not get into issuing documents necessarily that goes into all the "details".

But Moral Theology applies the various Christian Moral Principles to Marriage...can thus get more into the "details".

http://forums.catholic.com/showpost....7&postcount=18

Certainly
neither the husband or the wife may seek or consent to or be in a near occasion of climaxing apart from the marital act (see my other posts above)

Prior to TOB there was yes still this sort of teaching.
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  #49  
Old Apr 12, '12, 5:50 pm
Kithrus Kithrus is offline
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Default Re: Marital Foreplay and Sex

I always had a problem with the idea that men can not climax anywhere save within their wives.

Excuse my bluntness.

See the mans body without any stimulation will give into a wet dream resulting in 'spit seed' which the church sees to be a no no.

I'm a strong defender of the church but this is a moral oversight imo. You can't treat seed as this sacred fluid which you have these unrealistic rules on when and how when you a overflow valve that dumps the excess.

I'm a philosopher everything must make sense! :P

This doesn't mean I'm advocated perverted use of sex far from it but suggesting that men are sinners because they finish unexpectedly is a tad presumptuous.

I think once the lights go out in the bed room of the married couples the churches work s done.

Period.
  #50  
Old Apr 12, '12, 5:55 pm
Nate13 Nate13 is offline
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Default Re: Marital Foreplay and Sex

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kithrus View Post
I always had a problem with the idea that men can not climax anywhere save within their wives.

Excuse my bluntness.

See the mans body without any stimulation will give into a wet dream resulting in 'spit seed' which the church sees to be a no no.

I'm a strong defender of the church but this is a moral oversight imo. You can't treat seed as this sacred fluid which you have these unrealistic rules on when and how when you a overflow valve that dumps the excess.

I'm a philosopher everything must make sense! :P

This doesn't mean I'm advocated perverted use of sex far from it but suggesting that men are sinners because they finish unexpectedly is a tad presumptuous.

I think once the lights go out in the bed room of the married couples the churches work s done.

Period.
Hmm well let me correct a misconception first. You only have a sin assuming the act was deliberate. In other words if it happens unexpectedly during foreplay or we are talking about wet dreams that is not a sin. Deliberate sexual stimulation that is not directed towards fulfilling both the procreative and unitive purposes of sex is immoral though, period.

Just because the Church argues murder is a sin, does not mean it says its also a mortal sin if by some freak accident you cause the death of someone completely unintentionally. Murder by definition is the deliberate intentional killing of an innocent life. Contraception by definition is the deliberate intentional separation of the unitive and procreative meanings of sex.
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  #51  
Old Apr 12, '12, 6:02 pm
Bookcat Bookcat is online now
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Default Re: Marital Foreplay and Sex

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kithrus View Post
I always had a problem with the idea that men can not climax anywhere save within their wives.

Excuse my bluntness.

See the mans body without any stimulation will give into a wet dream resulting in 'spit seed' which the church sees to be a no no.

I'm a strong defender of the church but this is a moral oversight imo. You can't treat seed as this sacred fluid which you have these unrealistic rules on when and how when you a overflow valve that dumps the excess.

I'm a philosopher everything must make sense! :P

This doesn't mean I'm advocated perverted use of sex far from it but suggesting that men are sinners because they finish unexpectedly is a tad presumptuous.

I think once the lights go out in the bed room of the married couples the churches work s done.

Period.
We live as Christians everywhere....lights on or off.


Is it a sin for a nocturnal emission to happen without consent? No off course not. Nor it is it a sin when the drink unknowingly a poisoned drink. But it is a sin to consent to climax outside the marital act (etc) and it is a sin to drink a poisoned drink knowingly.

(PS: "Accidents" may be without any sin by the way...or there may be sin....depending.)
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Last edited by Bookcat; Apr 12, '12 at 6:13 pm.
  #52  
Old Apr 12, '12, 6:03 pm
LucyLight LucyLight is offline
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Default Re: Marital Foreplay and Sex

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corki View Post
While you can have extended foreplay, it's not foreplay any more if you stop and do something else. So if the sequence is something like foreplay, climax, sleep, feed the kids, go to work, foreplay, sex - it would not be moral.

This is your opinion of what is appropriate. There is an issue with semantics here. Some people would consider a prolonged kiss arousing and therefore foreplay. You are not going to find a church teaching that says sexual touch is not allowed between married people unless they engage in full intercourse.

I think the idea of extended foreplay(making out, intimately embracing etc.) is a great idea and helps couples get through a period of abstaining. Of course you shouldn't bring each other to the brink of orgasm and you should only do as much as you can handle.
  #53  
Old Apr 12, '12, 8:22 pm
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Corki Corki is offline
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Default Re: Marital Foreplay and Sex

Quote:
Originally Posted by LucyLight View Post
This is your opinion of what is appropriate. There is an issue with semantics here. Some people would consider a prolonged kiss arousing and therefore foreplay. You are not going to find a church teaching that says sexual touch is not allowed between married people unless they engage in full intercourse.

I think the idea of extended foreplay(making out, intimately embracing etc.) is a great idea and helps couples get through a period of abstaining. Of course you shouldn't bring each other to the brink of orgasm and you should only do as much as you can handle.
The OP didn't say "on the brink of orgasm". She was talking about one spouse bringing the other to orgasm days before or after engaging in sex. That is not the same act anymore than petting while dating is part of consumating your marriage on your wedding night.
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  #54  
Old Apr 12, '12, 9:39 pm
NFP1Kate NFP1Kate is offline
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Default Re: Marital Foreplay and Sex

OK...so I get the teaching...however, I want to push the envelop to see how far I can go.

In phase 2 we have no intention of having full intercourse. He does not penetrate me, nor does he climax. There is no sin of Onan.

We want to be intimate. If the intention is purely wanting to be together but refraining from intercourse, can we mess around a lot if we both don't orgasm?

I know that would drive most people crazy, but we like it. As long as we don't climax, it sounds like, in Church teaching, we can pretty much everything.
  #55  
Old Apr 12, '12, 10:33 pm
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twoangels twoangels is offline
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Default Re: Marital Foreplay and Sex

Quote:
Originally Posted by NFP1Kate View Post
OK...so I get the teaching...however, I want to push the envelop to see how far I can go.

In phase 2 we have no intention of having full intercourse. He does not penetrate me, nor does he climax. There is no sin of Onan.

We want to be intimate. If the intention is purely wanting to be together but refraining from intercourse, can we mess around a lot if we both don't orgasm?

I know that would drive most people crazy, but we like it. As long as we don't climax, it sounds like, in Church teaching, we can pretty much everything.
As I said before, I think the key to understanding it is to understand that if your spouse requests sex, you should not refuse it. As such, you need to think seriously about how serious your motivation is to abstain. You don't want to turn it into an occassion of sin (where you habitually avoid intercourse by compromising to masturbation) or don't want to turn the denial of conjugal rights. You don't want one person losing their resolve while the other person says "Look we had an agreement so the answer is no. Get away from me now." That form of rejection I think is far more severe than any moral compromising of rejecting merely the fertility of a person. You end up still treating your spouse's fertility like some disease that needs to be quarentined, rather than handled with latex gloves and masks.

It is different than when you are dating though because having sex is not sinful (nor is getting pregnant). We are not to view our fertility as a disease. As such, I do think it is immoral for couples to become cold and unloving with no expressions of love and intimacy during the fertile time. If you're sending your spouse to a different bedroom and rushing through your day to avoid your spouse so you won't be tempted, you're rejecting your spouse. You again are treating your fertility as a disease that needs to be quarentened.

So its very important to love each other in multiple ways during your periods of abstainence. At least how my husband use the term "messing around" it does include messing around. It may be though benefitial to learn the acryonym SPICE to broaden up how you express your love and grow in intimacy.

Spiritual
Physical
Intellectual
Communicative/Creative
Emotional
  #56  
Old Apr 13, '12, 4:09 am
fpt fpt is offline
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Default Re: Marital Foreplay and Sex

When wife and husband are okay for no marital act, they have the right to give physical affection between them.

For instance:

a kiss on mouth, a french kiss, a kiss on the forehead, a kiss on the hands, a kiss on shoulders, a kiss on the nose, a kiss in neck, a kiss on ears, a kiss on eyes, a kiss on feet, a kiss on chest, a kiss on breasts, a kiss on nipples, a kiss on the back.

A rub on the top part of the body of each one;
A caress on the top part of the body of each one;
Wife and husband can sleep together in the same bed, even totally naked.

Natural erection of husband does not automatically mean to keep going for having sexual intercourse;

The marital intimacy without sex is morally okay, of course, because we are not brother and sister. We are a couple, we are wife and husband.
  #57  
Old Apr 13, '12, 4:50 am
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Marybeloved Marybeloved is offline
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Default Re: Marital Foreplay and Sex

Quote:
Originally Posted by twoangels View Post
Rather than just find an official document that forbids it, I think its better to simply pray about it and study different texts. I don't find Christopher West or even Gregory Popcak adequate study material. They're good reads, but for deeper integration, I would recommend going to Eucharistic adoration with a copy of Humanae Vitae. In fact, what I'd do is take a bag with Humanae Vitae, the bible, "Man and Woman He created them" (best translation of TOB there is right now) and "Why Humanae Vitae was right: a Reader." Then spend some minutes praying for humility and honesty. Its like doing a good examination of conscience. You pray for the Holy Spirit to enlighten your mind and to help you avoid the two extreems of denying sin and becoming overscruplous.

Ultimately what you want to do is allow these books to become integrated into your conscience. This is a form of educating your conscience. It is completely different from relying on other people's consciences to be your conscience. After all, Christopher West is not infallible nor is anyone else on these forums.
OP, I think Twoangels gives you the best advice here in this post.

It's not a list, nor a technicality, but an integrated vision of who a human is: A child of God and of the love of a man and his wife in God's will/plan. Remember that underlying and driving the church's teaching on marriage, love and sex is the value that God has placed in each of his children which cannot be measured.

The sin of lust in whatever area it manifests itself: marriage, single life, in action or thought etc- involves nothing other than this- objectifying the children of God, making means and tools of your spouse and fellow human beings. It is using one who is you brother or sister in the Lord. This objectifying, when happens in the context or geared towards sex, is called lust in motivation, or unchastity in action, thought and behavior. It's the value of the human being that makes every sin of lust grave matter, even just thoughts. It's not just about the actions that you do by themselves, its what these actions signify, what they mean also- it's the degrading that you do to another in your heart, whom you should value for themselves when you see them as tools for pleasure.

Read the teachings of Pope John Paul II and other Popes and the Catechism on marriage, love and sex for yourself. Do it even as spiritual reading and part of prayer as Twoangels has said. Read the writings of the Saints- No one is better able to identify the selfish, lustful, self-seeking impulses in us better than the Saints. They are the experts on the inner life of man, and the church has put them up before us as the ideal/example to emulate and teachers to follow. After a while, you will get the "mind" of the church, her perspective on things and you'll be able to tell in all sincerity whether each thing you do in your marriage is motivated by lust or genuine Christian charity. The mistake is to just assume that every impulse we feel is OK just because we are married- Some are purely geared towards selfishness of some kind or other, which in sex the Church calls lust. Prayer and reading the Popes, Saints and Doctors will help you see in time just what is legitimate (That is- with love as its center and driving force) and what is not (with lust at its centre).

Blessing,
From: I love Mary!

Last edited by Marybeloved; Apr 13, '12 at 5:09 am.
  #58  
Old Apr 13, '12, 4:55 am
fpt fpt is offline
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Default Re: Marital Foreplay and Sex

By principle, the definition and the meaning of masturbation have to be seen with a strict acception (stricto sensu) and not with a large acception (lato sensu).

Thus, in the couple, what is masturbation? What are the material elements of masturbation? What are the intellectual elements of masturbation?
  #59  
Old Apr 13, '12, 5:01 am
fpt fpt is offline
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Default Re: Marital Foreplay and Sex

If they want to get physical affection without the marital act, it is possible, of course. Per se, there is no moral problem. They can caress each one with moderation, I mean in avoiding the orgasms.
  #60  
Old Apr 13, '12, 5:24 am
TheRealJuliane TheRealJuliane is offline
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Default Re: Marital Foreplay and Sex

Quote:
Originally Posted by NFP1Kate View Post
OK...so I get the teaching...however, I want to push the envelop to see how far I can go.

In phase 2 we have no intention of having full intercourse. He does not penetrate me, nor does he climax. There is no sin of Onan.

We want to be intimate. If the intention is purely wanting to be together but refraining from intercourse, can we mess around a lot if we both don't orgasm?

I know that would drive most people crazy, but we like it. As long as we don't climax, it sounds like, in Church teaching, we can pretty much everything.
Is this really intimacy, or is it merely lust? "As long as we don;t...."

Is that the approach you want to take? You can, I suppose a lot of people come at Church teachings like that. It's a shame though, because God wants more for us.
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