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  #256  
Old Apr 13, '12, 3:44 am
Fone Bone 2001 Fone Bone 2001 is offline
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Default Re: Is Orthodoxy the true Church?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul theApostle View Post
Why doesnt Rome send them back to their mother EO churches then?
Many don't want to go.

Take, for instance, the largest of all the eastern Catholic churches - the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, with millions of members. Try sending them back to their "mother EO church" and see where that gets you...

Other examples abound of eastern Catholic churches with unique situations:

The Melkites can possibly legitimately be viewed as having the true claim to the patriarchate of Antioch; the Melkite Greek Catholic Church was not formed in a "uniate" manner.

The Syriac Maronite Church of Antioch doesn't even have an Orthodox counterpart.

Historically, what is now the Italo-Albanian Byzantine Catholic Church was in Latin territories anyway and so wasn't originally self-governing at all. Canonically, no Orthodox church could legally absorb them in a way that makes sense.

The Chaldean Catholic Church and the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church are each actually significantly larger than their non-Catholic counterpart, the Assyrian Church of the East.

... And the list goes on. Even for the churches that don't have a special situation like those above, "sending them back to their mother churches" isn't feasible, because their members want to be in communion with Rome. Those who don't - for whatever reason - are free to switch to an Orthodox community, and sometimes do.

"Sending them back to their mother churches" before their mother churches are willing to be in communion with us would effectively be kicking them out of communion with the pope when they have done no wrong.
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  #257  
Old Apr 13, '12, 7:00 am
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Paul theApostle Paul theApostle is offline
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Default Re: Is Orthodoxy the true Church?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fone Bone 2001 View Post
Many don't want to go.

Take, for instance, the largest of all the eastern Catholic churches - the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, with millions of members. Try sending them back to their "mother EO church" and see where that gets you...

Other examples abound of eastern Catholic churches with unique situations:

The Melkites can possibly legitimately be viewed as having the true claim to the patriarchate of Antioch; the Melkite Greek Catholic Church was not formed in a "uniate" manner.

The Syriac Maronite Church of Antioch doesn't even have an Orthodox counterpart.

Historically, what is now the Italo-Albanian Byzantine Catholic Church was in Latin territories anyway and so wasn't originally self-governing at all. Canonically, no Orthodox church could legally absorb them in a way that makes sense.

The Chaldean Catholic Church and the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church are each actually significantly larger than their non-Catholic counterpart, the Assyrian Church of the East.

... And the list goes on. Even for the churches that don't have a special situation like those above, "sending them back to their mother churches" isn't feasible, because their members want to be in communion with Rome. Those who don't - for whatever reason - are free to switch to an Orthodox community, and sometimes do.

"Sending them back to their mother churches" before their mother churches are willing to be in communion with us would effectively be kicking them out of communion with the pope when they have done no wrong.
few Qs

has EO and RC agreed not to create anymore Eastern Cath churches?

What does Rome do with or expect from EO christians that want to be united to Rome nowadays?

Does Rome desire for them to stay where they are in EO ,or for them to cross over individually to the existing EC churches? or is individual conversions discouraged also

i think i read in the statements between EO and RC that each church shouldnt try to sheep steal or convert individual members ..would that be right?

If Rome is becoming more accepting of Orthodoxy considering it valid etc ,then would it matter if these ECs went back to EO?
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  #258  
Old Apr 13, '12, 9:59 am
Alexander Roman Alexander Roman is offline
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Default Re: Is Orthodoxy the true Church?

[quote=Schism hater;9177274]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexander Roman View Post

I generally find your posts interesting and knowledgeable, but I must take issue with this statement. Most Orthodox do not see the Patirarch of Constantinople as exercising a Petrine Ministry comparable to the one exercised by the Bishop of Rome in the Roman church. As I understand it, the Petrine Ministry is exercised by all bishops pretty much equally.
You are absolutely correct. The Ecumenical Patriarch is a first among equals. All bishops are equal, but there are those who are leaders among the equals.

Alex
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  #259  
Old Apr 13, '12, 10:13 am
Alexander Roman Alexander Roman is offline
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Default Re: Is Orthodoxy the true Church?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fone Bone 2001 View Post
Many don't want to go.

Take, for instance, the largest of all the eastern Catholic churches - the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, with millions of members. Try sending them back to their "mother EO church" and see where that gets you...

Other examples abound of eastern Catholic churches with unique situations:

The Melkites can possibly legitimately be viewed as having the true claim to the patriarchate of Antioch; the Melkite Greek Catholic Church was not formed in a "uniate" manner.

The Syriac Maronite Church of Antioch doesn't even have an Orthodox counterpart.

Historically, what is now the Italo-Albanian Byzantine Catholic Church was in Latin territories anyway and so wasn't originally self-governing at all. Canonically, no Orthodox church could legally absorb them in a way that makes sense.

The Chaldean Catholic Church and the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church are each actually significantly larger than their non-Catholic counterpart, the Assyrian Church of the East.

... And the list goes on. Even for the churches that don't have a special situation like those above, "sending them back to their mother churches" isn't feasible, because their members want to be in communion with Rome. Those who don't - for whatever reason - are free to switch to an Orthodox community, and sometimes do.

"Sending them back to their mother churches" before their mother churches are willing to be in communion with us would effectively be kicking them out of communion with the pope when they have done no wrong.
For the record, I only said that thing about sending them back in a rhetorical way.

Of course, the UGCC has more than one "Mother Orthodox Church" to choose from. UGCCers may, in future, decide to unite with Ukrainian Orthodox once they get their collective act together. The, for want of a better term, "Latin" section of the UGCC won't be interested in any of this. The point is that Rome is repenting of its historic Uniate activities and the current EC Churches serve as a reminder of that whenever Rome talks to the Orthodox.

I believe Pope Benedict recently told an ROC leader that the Catholic Church has "inherited" the EC Churches (i.e. "Don't blame us today, we inherited the uniates").

Ultimately, the EC's will reunite with Orthodoxy, in one way or another and obviously when Orthodoxy and Rome are one, however they decide that unity to be constituted. Orthodoxy is not moving toward the EC's in any form of uniatism.

Alex
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  #260  
Old Apr 15, '12, 9:33 am
Fone Bone 2001 Fone Bone 2001 is offline
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Default Re: Is Orthodoxy the true Church?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul theApostle View Post
few Qs

has EO and RC agreed not to create anymore Eastern Cath churches?
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul theApostle View Post
What does Rome do with or expect from EO christians that want to be united to Rome nowadays?
They are perfectly free to translate into the Catholic Church. They are typically expected to join the self-governing Catholic church that most closely corresponds to their Orthodox church of origin. For instance, an Antiochian Orthodox Christian seeking communion with Rome would enter the Melkite Greek Catholic Church. An Oriental Coptic Orthodox Christian would enter the Coptic Catholic Church.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul theApostle View Post
Does Rome desire for them to stay where they are in EO ,or for them to cross over individually to the existing EC churches? or is individual conversions discouraged also
I don't have sources for this at present - so others, please correct me if I'm wrong - but I believe that Rome neither encourages nor discourages Orthodox Christians from translating to eastern Catholic churches. If individuals or families want to do so, it would be wrong not to permit them to come. The Catholic Church is firmly against proselytizing them, however, so no, we never go out of our way to try to get Orthodox Christians to join eastern Catholic churches.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul theApostle View Post
i think i read in the statements between EO and RC that each church shouldnt try to sheep steal or convert individual members ..would that be right?
Yes, that's definitely right.

Those who already are eastern Catholics, however, have certain rights within the Church, and one of those rights is to be in communion with the Roman Pontiff if they wish, and if they are orthodox.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul theApostle View Post
If Rome is becoming more accepting of Orthodoxy considering it valid etc ,then would it matter if these ECs went back to EO?
The jury's out on that one.

On an external level, an eastern Catholic who becomes eastern Orthodox will still have the orthodox faith, the Sacraments, and membership in a true church; however, they will now lack communion with the pope of Rome, which the Catholic Church considers to be intrinsically important.

It's for wiser men and women than I to comment on the benefits vs. the risks of such a translation. If they honestly believe they are following the truth, however, then because the Orthodox have orthodoxy and valid Sacraments, I can't imagine any way in which such a person's soul could possibly be in jeopardy due to his or her translation to the eastern Orthodox Church.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexander Roman View Post
The point is that Rome is repenting of its historic Uniate activities, [and] Orthodoxy is not moving toward the EC's in any form of uniatism.
Absolutely.

I was just attempting to balance the scales a bit, since any rhetoric about "sending 'em back" and such comes dangerously close to ignoring the fact that, with the way things stand as they are, eastern Christians who profess everything the Catholic Church teaches and seek full communion with the Roman Pontiff, have a right to be in communion with him.
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  #261  
Old Apr 15, '12, 12:23 pm
Hesychios Hesychios is offline
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Smile Re: Is Orthodoxy the true Church?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Art321 View Post
Honestly, I don't know about this. The Catholic Church places much emphasis by saying St. Peter was the first Bishop of Rome. If Peter never was, then the doctrine of the Papacy falls apart really.
...

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  #262  
Old Apr 15, '12, 1:30 pm
DadDave DadDave is offline
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Default Re: Is Orthodoxy the true Church?

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...

Paper tiger?
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  #263  
Old Apr 15, '12, 5:21 pm
Art321 Art321 is offline
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Default Re: Is Orthodoxy the true Church?

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...

Huh? I don't understand what you are trying to say.
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  #264  
Old Apr 15, '12, 5:23 pm
hazcompat hazcompat is offline
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Default Re: Is Orthodoxy the true Church?

in qua unica Cathedra uniias alt omnibus servaretur.
This is the doctrine so often and so clearly expressed by St. Cyprian, cf. e.g. Una ecclesia a Christo Domino nostro super Petrum, origine unitatis et ratione fundata (Ep. Ixx, 3), and Petro primum Dominus, super quern aedificavit Ecclesiam, et unde unitatis originem instituit et ostendit, potestatem istam dedit (Ep. Ixxiii, 3), and
Deus unus est et Christus unus, et una Ecclesia, et Cathedra una, super Petrum Domini voce fundata (xliii, 5) .

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AGAINST THE DONATISTS

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  #265  
Old Apr 15, '12, 5:31 pm
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Paul theApostle Paul theApostle is offline
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Default Re: Is Orthodoxy the true Church?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fone Bone 2001 View Post
Yes.

They are perfectly free ..........
thanks

i think i got proselytizing and people converting of their will mixed up...

but for people who do convert to either side i wonder if it usually took some influence from the other side

Like when i converted to EO years ago ,my greek friend/sponser didnt encourage me to stay where i was at RC,he was all for me converting to EO,as was his greek priest also

isnt there rules/statements about not converting the other side,shouldnt both sides encourage and send the person back to his original church and not 'steal' them?



God bless
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  #266  
Old Apr 15, '12, 5:32 pm
hazcompat hazcompat is offline
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Default Re: Is Orthodoxy the true Church?

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Originally Posted by Hesychios View Post
...

He is implying you let the cat out of the bag.

peace
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  #267  
Old Apr 15, '12, 5:54 pm
Art321 Art321 is offline
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Default Re: Is Orthodoxy the true Church?

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He is implying you let the cat out of the bag.

peace
Which would mean... what exactly?
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  #268  
Old Apr 15, '12, 6:06 pm
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Peter J Peter J is offline
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Post Re: Is Orthodoxy the true Church?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul theApostle View Post
Why doesnt Rome send them back to their mother EO churches then?
This way of thinking is extremely problematic. Despite a certain closeness between Catholicism and Orthodoxy, switching from one to the other is an extremely weighty matter. I don't encourage anyone who is Catholic to convert to Orthodoxy -- although certainly I respect the free choice of those who do so. (Note: In view of more recent comments, especially what you said in #265, let me add that I'm saying this as a Catholic. If I were Orthodox I would presumably encourage Catholics to swim the Bosphorus.)

What your suggesting here, not even just to encourage ECs to swim the Bosphorus but to "send them back", would be outrageous.
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  #269  
Old Apr 15, '12, 9:39 pm
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Paul theApostle Paul theApostle is offline
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Default Re: Is Orthodoxy the true Church?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter J View Post
What your suggesting here, not even just to encourage ECs to swim the Bosphorus but to "send them back", would be outrageous.
If uniatism has been made unacceptable nowadays,why not make up for the errors of the past by undoing them ?

if it is wrong now ,then should it all have been done in the first place?

normally if i steal something,first its good to realise my wrong and decide to stop and then a noble thing to do would to give what ive stolen back to the owner

i know people have a will of their own unlike stolen goods,but for RC to agree not to convert EO churches members anymore ,it must assume that EO can offer salvation also,otherwise Rome wouldnt hesistate to convert Eastern 'Orthodox' christians who they would assume are in jeopardy of losing their salvation by remaining in EO

is not being united to the Pope going to cause the loss of their salvation?

Last edited by Paul theApostle; Apr 15, '12 at 9:57 pm.
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  #270  
Old Apr 15, '12, 10:06 pm
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Vico Vico is online now
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Default Re: Is Orthodoxy the true Church?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul theApostle View Post
If uniatism has been made unacceptable nowadays,why not make up for the errors of the past by undoing them ?

if it is wrong now ,then should it all have been done in the first place?

normally if i steal something,first its good to realise my wrong and decide to stop and then a noble thing to do would to give what ive stolen back to the owner

i know people have a will of their own unlike stolen goods,but for RC to agree not to convert EO churches members anymore ,it must assume that EO can offer salvation also,otherwise Rome wouldnt hesistate to convert Eastern 'Orthodox' christians who they would assume are in jeopardy of losing their salvation by remaining in EO

is not being united to the Pope going to cause the loss of their salvation?
Sometimes.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

IV. ERRONEOUS JUDGMENT

1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.


1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.


1792 Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one's passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church's authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.


1793 If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience.
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