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  #16  
Old Apr 12, '12, 3:08 pm
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Corki Corki is offline
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Default Re: 'Catholic Spring' uprising prediction for Ireland over dissenting priest Father Flannery

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julia Mae View Post
Hello, Liza. What do you think "actually BE Catholic" means, exactly? See, I think it means the purest form of Christian, in the Church which has retained the true teachings of Jesus Christ and the reality of the Eucharist. So that means following Jesus and doing what He said:

feeding the hungry
clothing the naked
sheltering the homeless
loving one another
being wary of the leaven of the Pharisees

So this priest you are referring to here, Father Flannery, what exactly did he say? Did he say, as a famous German priest once did, that Jesus did not perform miracles? Did he say the bread was symbolically representing Jesus?

What heresy did he commit? I ask because the story is written for the local population who are apparently very familiar with this, but it doesn't quote him or give examples.

Do you have some quotes and examples?
Your list is a little incomplete. You left out humbly submit to authority and, as Jesus told Peter "feed my sheep".

As for heresy, I would more use the term dissent. The priest in question is reported to be a vocal critic or the Church's teaching on contraception and homosexuality as well as a vocal advocate of womens "ordination". He has been leading the sheep astray rather than feeding them the truth.
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"It is not “progressive” to try to resolve problems by eliminating a human life." Pope Francis
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  #17  
Old Apr 12, '12, 3:38 pm
NewEnglandPriest NewEnglandPriest is offline
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Default Re: 'Catholic Spring' uprising prediction for Ireland over dissenting priest Father Flannery

Every now and then there's predictions of a "Catholic revolt against the Vatican" in one area of the world or another. And it always is much ado about nothing. I'd be surprised if this didn't just fizzle out and fade away within a few months.

Afterall, just what exactly is this revolt supposed to entail? Church attendance and support are at record lows and trending downwards. What are they going to do now? Steal money instead of failing to give any?
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  #18  
Old Apr 12, '12, 4:16 pm
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Default Re: 'Catholic Spring' uprising prediction for Ireland over dissenting priest Father Flannery

why do i get the feeling your not actually a priest.
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  #19  
Old Apr 12, '12, 9:05 pm
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Julia Mae Julia Mae is offline
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Default Re: 'Catholic Spring' uprising prediction for Ireland over dissenting priest Father Flannery

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Originally Posted by Corki View Post
Your list is a little incomplete. You left out humbly submit to authority and, as Jesus told Peter "feed my sheep".
Not my list, it was Jesus' list.

So you think that you need these to BE Catholic, as Liza said? Even though, as we know from what she said, what YOU think is irrelevant, I'm still interested in what your thoughts are about this.

Why do you think the Pope waited until now to take this action? Have you ever "dissented" from something a Pope said or did? Ever criticized a Bishop?
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  #20  
Old Apr 12, '12, 10:27 pm
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Default Re: 'Catholic Spring' uprising prediction for Ireland over dissenting priest Father Flannery

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Originally Posted by Julia Mae View Post
Not my list, it was Jesus' list.

So you think that you need these to BE Catholic, as Liza said? Even though, as we know from what she said, what YOU think is irrelevant, I'm still interested in what your thoughts are about this.

Why do you think the Pope waited until now to take this action? Have you ever "dissented" from something a Pope said or did? Ever criticized a Bishop?
that's a very confusing post. liza was talking about you. not corki. then after posting that corki is irrelevant you say you interested in what his/her thoughts are. even though corki would have to take a wild guess to answer you.
Jesus list was
Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'
the other list was one you compiled
as for dissenting from pope or critzing a bishop, it's against the forum rules to derail a thread or go off in tangents.
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  #21  
Old Apr 13, '12, 4:27 am
trials trials is offline
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Default Re: 'Catholic Spring' uprising prediction for Ireland over dissenting priest Father Flannery

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Originally Posted by NPC View Post
We shouldn't be surprised that your posts haven't been accepted. The ones calling for tolerance are usually the most intolerant of views that differ from their own agenda.

Unfortunately I will not be in a position to go to that assembly. Although I am utterly opposed to the agenda of the ACP I think it would be great to muster a good crowd of faithful Catholics to "infiltrate" the meeting to air their views - to demand that a group calling themselves "Catholic Priests" actually be Catholic! I know from personal experience that that would really get up their noses. I was outside one of their meetings last year in a show of support for the Holy Father and the new translation of the Roman Missal and they did not like it one bit! You'd think some of them were demon possessed the way their faces contorted when their eyes fell on our giant picture of Pope Benedict. On a serious note though, the devil is most certainly in their work, and therefore the armour of Christ through prayer, knowing the faith, and acts of penance and self-denial (as called for by the Holy Father in his letter to Irish Catholics in 2010) will be our surest defence against this scourge - this heresy - of liberalism and modernism.
Well done you. Wish I'd been there to support you. I know the Church will come through this, as it has come through so many trials before, but I really feel the need to act. Like you said, to get a voice heard from Catholics that actually support the Church and its teachings and are not just blindly accepting their faith, but understand it and love it. We need to be heard now. I am praying and praying that God will show me how to act. It is very hard when it is your own parish priest too that is supportive of this group. I don't feel comfortable talking to him about this at all, mainly because of the respect I have for priests, I can't see myself challenging him charitably without feeling like I'm in the wrong to dare to criticise a priest. All I have done is pray every day for him.

I was talking about this with someone yesterday, and realised that maybe good will come from this. Too long the liberal views had been infiltrating our Church here at the highest levels - I don't mean Bishops, (or at least I hope not), but training of priests, and Diocesan-led discussions/meetings/seminars, etc. It was like the elephant in the room. No one did anything about it, or explicitly mentioned it, but we knew it was there like a spreading virus. Now the extent of the disease is there for all to see - the ACP has shown themselves for what they really are, in their skewed survey and their comments on the Vatican - it's out there. I pray that now the Church will be purified, even if it comes down to people choosing to break away from the Church towards something of their own making that houses all these liberal views. Am I making any sense?
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  #22  
Old Apr 13, '12, 6:29 am
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Corki Corki is offline
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Default Re: 'Catholic Spring' uprising prediction for Ireland over dissenting priest Father Flannery

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julia Mae View Post
Not my list, it was Jesus' list.

So you think that you need these to BE Catholic, as Liza said? Even though, as we know from what she said, what YOU think is irrelevant, I'm still interested in what your thoughts are about this.

Why do you think the Pope waited until now to take this action? Have you ever "dissented" from something a Pope said or did? Ever criticized a Bishop?
To BE a Catholic priest, what you quoted and my additions all come from Scripture in what Jesus asks of his shepherds.

Yes, I have disagreed with Church teaching and repented and been absolved of it. But I am not a priest, either. And there's a huge difference between disagreeing with something a Bishop or even the Pope says and dissenting from dogmatic teachings of the Church.
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“Above all, the common outcry, which is justly made on behalf of human rights -- for example, the right to health, to home, to work, to family, to culture -- is false and illusory if the right to life, the most basic and fundamental right and the condition for all other personal rights, is not defended with maximum determination.” Blessed Pope John Paul II

"It is not “progressive” to try to resolve problems by eliminating a human life." Pope Francis
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  #23  
Old Apr 13, '12, 9:00 am
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Julia Mae Julia Mae is offline
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Default Re: 'Catholic Spring' uprising prediction for Ireland over dissenting priest Father Flannery

Quote:
Originally Posted by saveusfromhell View Post
Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'
the other list was one you compiled
as for dissenting from pope or critzing a bishop, it's against the forum rules to derail a thread or go off in tangents.
I'm trying to discuss the topic of the thread. The OP posted a link to a priest censured for dissent and criticism of the Pope. The OP wrote this opinion:

Quote:
I for one say bring it on. I think it would be good for there to be a cleaning of house in the Catholic Church, and if folks can't get with the program, and refuse to actually BE Catholic, then they make the decision to leave the Church. But do not stay inside and try to destroy it from within.
So, the thread topic is dissent from Church authority and what it means to BE Catholic.

As for the list being something I compiled, that list is just repeating what Jesus said. Do you need citations? From Matthew 25:

Quote:
‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’
It's also true that when challenged about disobeying rules set down by Church authority, Jesus declared He was Lord of the Sabbath. What I do not find is a single verse where Jesus speaks about silent acceptance of any person's authority, as far as a church goes.

The topic, as set by the OP, concerns what it means to BE Catholic. Are we defining "Catholic" as different from "Christian?" The Church doesn't, as far as I know.
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  #24  
Old Apr 13, '12, 9:17 am
Hopemercy Hopemercy is offline
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Default Re: 'Catholic Spring' uprising prediction for Ireland over dissenting priest Father Flannery

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Originally Posted by Julia Mae View Post
Why wasn't he if the issue is the same as it was years ago? Why act now?
That is a very good question..

One rural parish I lived in was having a problem with the priest. Such was it that they contacted the bishop... This was an older, late entry priest who ran his own farm and was very little in the parish...

The bishop admitted wrong was being done, but said he was.. scared to approach the priest in case he left...When he did try to intervene, the priest opined that the bishop should mind his own beeswax.

Such is the shortage of priests that they are allowed to run things as they please. My PP here is such another sadly.

Flannery et al know this fine well and are using the weaknesses.. Oh they claim they have 800 priestly supporters but they make so many claims.

Makes one wonder what they really want? Do they think the Vatican is going to roll over and agree to all they ask?

Someone needs to ask them this. They have no resources to form their own church and of course are well fed and well housed etc. Comfortable etc.
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  #25  
Old Apr 13, '12, 9:20 am
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Julia Mae Julia Mae is offline
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Default Re: 'Catholic Spring' uprising prediction for Ireland over dissenting priest Father Flannery

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corki View Post
To BE a Catholic priest, what you quoted and my additions all come from Scripture in what Jesus asks of his shepherds.
Well, one of them was what Jesus asked: feed my sheep.
Quote:
Your list is a little incomplete. You left out humbly submit to authority and, as Jesus told Peter "feed my sheep".
Still not finding anything about "humbly submit to authority." In fact, in Acts, Paul does question the Church in Jerusalem, about requiring Gentiles to be circumcised. That was a good thing, big discussion, changed the "dogma." It was dogma, of course, pretty much the oldest sign of being one of the children of Abraham.

I agree that the priest going to the parishioners, or the "sheep" with the opinions while performing his priestly duties is very inappropriate. So, this priest in the op, he was for ending the celibacy requirement for all priests (not dogma, of course) women's ordination,
(you can argue that one) and he was very critical of how the sexual abuse of children issue was handled by the Vatican. Were there other things?

But he isn't alone, from what I read, there seem to be a rather large number of priests who agree with at least part of what he said. I don't know which parts, because in all of this, I still don't find any actual quotes from the priest in question about anything or from the other priests.

I wish, for myself, that at Mass a priest would stick to bringing us the Word and the Sacraments and not be going "off-topic." That's what I think "feed my sheep" means. I was spoiled by going to Mass every week with Archbishop Chaput as celebrant, of course.
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  #26  
Old Apr 13, '12, 9:22 am
Hopemercy Hopemercy is offline
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Default Re: 'Catholic Spring' uprising prediction for Ireland over dissenting priest Father Flannery

Julia Mae... these men took Vows when they were ordained. Of Obedience to the Pope to their bishops, etc etc etc.

They did so as adults, after many years of formation.

These are Life Vows..

Within the Catholic Church.

If they find that they can no longer keep these Vows, and patently they are not doing so, then the honest thing would be to apply for laicisation.

These are worldly men so maybe they need to look at a worldly firm/company. If an employee starts to speak out against the directors can he expect to be approved?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Julia Mae View Post
I'm trying to discuss the topic of the thread. The OP posted a link to a priest censured for dissent and criticism of the Pope. The OP wrote this opinion:



So, the thread topic is dissent from Church authority and what it means to BE Catholic.

As for the list being something I compiled, that list is just repeating what Jesus said. Do you need citations? From Matthew 25:



It's also true that when challenged about disobeying rules set down by Church authority, Jesus declared He was Lord of the Sabbath. What I do not find is a single verse where Jesus speaks about silent acceptance of any person's authority, as far as a church goes.

The topic, as set by the OP, concerns what it means to BE Catholic. Are we defining "Catholic" as different from "Christian?" The Church doesn't, as far as I know.
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  #27  
Old Apr 13, '12, 12:08 pm
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Slaney Slaney is offline
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Default Re: 'Catholic Spring' uprising prediction for Ireland over dissenting priest Father Flannery

Fr Flannery is hardly on his own on this in Ireland, there are a few " high profile " priests that like to air their liberal views at Mass, had to sit through a few of those sermons God forbid...

The People God help them are carried along by the shepherds who push their own liberal agenda in blatant opposition to the teaching of the Magisterium. Jesus made it clear about what was laid down on earth being ratified in Heaven, doesn't seem to matter to some of these latter day preachers, who are leading the sheep astray, many of whom wouldn't know the front or back of a Bible if they were hit over the head with it.
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  #28  
Old Apr 13, '12, 12:23 pm
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Default Re: 'Catholic Spring' uprising prediction for Ireland over dissenting priest Father Flannery

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Originally Posted by Julia Mae View Post
Why wasn't he if the issue is the same as it was years ago? Why act now?
Possibly because Fr. Flannery is comparatively smaller fish than the larger issues with which the Holy Father has been dealing, such as negotiating with the SSPX and establishing the Anglican ordinariate. Possibly because the situation in Ireland has, in the eyes of the Vatican, gotten markedly worse recently. Possibly he decided to make an example out of one renegade priest so as to send a message to the hundreds of others threatening revolt in Europe.

Who knows, or cares? Why it's taken so long to deal with him is not an issue. Whether or not he was dealt with appropriately is. It turns out, it's a really really dumb idea to attack your boss in public, repeatedly. Fr. Flannery, I suspect, will have plenty of time in silence and meditation to reflect on that fact.
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  #29  
Old Apr 13, '12, 1:00 pm
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Default Re: 'Catholic Spring' uprising prediction for Ireland over dissenting priest Father Flannery

How sad to hear about the beautiful Catholic faith under attack in Ireland. I will keep our Irish family in my prayers. I am of Irish descent and have always been proud of the faith that was passed on to me by my Irish ancestors.
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  #30  
Old Apr 14, '12, 10:15 am
JharekCarnelian JharekCarnelian is offline
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Default Re: 'Catholic Spring' uprising prediction for Ireland over dissenting priest Father Flannery

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Originally Posted by saveusfromhell View Post
unforunatly the predidction at fatima, that only portugal will retain the faith, seems to be coming fast to ireland, won't be long till many present day "catholics" start beating the lambeg drum on the 12th.
I think that is highly unlikely as the Lambeg drum and beating it is bound up with unionism as a political symbol and it's a rather bizarre leap to think that people will stop been Catholic and then suddenly start all been unionists. Hundreds of thousands of younger Irish people have been at best nominally Catholic for years and hundreds of thousands of Irish people are non-Catholic. Irishness is not defined entirely by been Catholic.
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