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  #16  
Old Apr 16, '12, 6:28 am
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anodos anodos is offline
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Default Re: The Immaculate Conception - does it compare to baptism?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thistle View Post
No quite sure what you mean by "did we both receive the same salvation"?
If a person dies immediately after being baptised then they are saved. However, assuming we don't die immediately after baptism we do not know if we will be saved or not. That depends on whether we die in a state of grace or not.
I'm sorry I confused the issue! When I used the word "salvation", I meant the remission of original sin through baptism or through the preservation of the Immaculate Conception.

I didn't mean attaining heaven after dying in a state of grace.
__________________


Ah Lord! do not withdraw,
Lest want of aw
Make Sinne appeare;
And when thou dost but shine lesse cleare,
Say, that thou art not here.

George Herbert, "A Parodie"
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  #17  
Old Apr 16, '12, 7:10 am
Nita Nita is offline
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Default Re: The Immaculate Conception - does it compare to baptism?

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Originally Posted by anodos View Post
Thanks.

In Mary's case, would baptism still have been necessary even though the stain of sin had already been wiped away? Or did Mary pre-receive, in essence, the "baptism for the remission of sins" that would later be instituted?
The purpose of baptism is the removal of original sin - that is, one's soul being translated from the state of original sin into the state of sanctifying grace. Therefore, if one is no longer in the state of original sin but is filled with the life of sanctifying grace (as Mary was), there is no need for Baptism. I do not know whether or not Mary ever was baptized after Jesus instituted the sacrament, but if she was it would not have been because she needed it. It would probably have been as an example - similar to Our Lord's being baptized by John for the forgiveness of sin when He had no need for such a Baptism.

The Church recognizes 3 forms of Baptism - baptism by water, blood, and desire. Mary was incapable of receiving baptism under any of these forms at the instant of her conception.

Mary would be an example of a time when God chose to bestow the gift of sanctifying grace to someone in an extraordinary manner - outside the bounds of the sacrament.
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  #18  
Old Apr 16, '12, 9:58 am
Mintaka Mintaka is offline
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Default Re: The Immaculate Conception - does it compare to baptism?

Re: Mary and Baptism, Communion, et al --

Mary didn't need Baptism for the remission of her sins. But Baptism is also about entering into Christ's Body, about dying to human life and being born to divine life. Finally, it's also about obeying Christ's stated commands. So yeah, it's pretty sure that Mary would have gotten Baptized, just like it seems clear that if Adam and Eve hadn't sinned, they would have been slated to be brought into God's life in some way.

Anyway, we know that Mary got Confirmed (ie, the Holy Spirit came upon her at Pentecost along with the rest of the disciples), and when Peter was preaching to everybody in Jerusalem to get baptized, he certainly seemed to think that he and the disciples were already baptized. (Ditto Jesus saying that the Apostles had already been "washed all over", and only needed feet washed now.) Heck, Mary probably got baptized by John the Baptist also, if only out of family feeling.

Just because we don't hear about it and the Church doesn't teach it, that doesn't mean it didn't happen; it just means it's not essential to salvation that we know about it. (And if we can figure it out, that's fair game enough.)

Shrug. Not too worried about it. I'm pretty sure Jesus was able to look after His mother's salvation after He was born, seeing as how He was doing something about it from the first moment her mother conceived her.
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  #19  
Old Apr 16, '12, 11:23 am
Evan Evan is offline
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Default Re: The Immaculate Conception - does it compare to baptism?

There is a big difference between the baptism you receive and the immaculate conception.

In your baptism, original sin is cleared from your soul, but the effects remain (concupiscence... a tendency to sin).

In the IC, not only is original sin not present, since it was never there, there is no effects left on the soul. Mary is an example of man in his original innocence, total free to choose good or evil without the concupiscence remaining after the removal of original sin.

You, being baptized, are an example of man in a state of forgiveness.
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  #20  
Old Apr 16, '12, 12:18 pm
TimothyH TimothyH is offline
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Default Re: The Immaculate Conception - does it compare to baptism?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan View Post
There is a big difference between the baptism you receive and the immaculate conception.

In your baptism, original sin is cleared from your soul, but the effects remain (concupiscence... a tendency to sin).

In the IC, not only is original sin not present, since it was never there, there is no effects left on the soul. Mary is an example of man in his original innocence, total free to choose good or evil without the concupiscence remaining after the removal of original sin.

You, being baptized, are an example of man in a state of forgiveness.
Evan is exactly correct.

Mary was given a singular grace from God which we have not been given. Mary was given the fullness of grace and her will was perfectly conformed to God's will. Unlike Mary, we have a will which seeks to serve itself rather than God.

It's not just about sin. It's about the tendancy to sin - concupiscence - and Mary's reception of the fullness of God's grace.

-Tim-
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  #21  
Old Apr 16, '12, 2:21 pm
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anodos anodos is offline
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Default Re: The Immaculate Conception - does it compare to baptism?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan View Post

In the IC, not only is original sin not present, since it was never there, there is no effects left on the soul. Mary is an example of man in his original innocence, total free to choose good or evil without the concupiscence remaining after the removal of original sin.
Thanks, I think that answers my question. I was a little unsure about equating the two because I thought there was probably more to the IC than simply the prevention of original sin.
__________________


Ah Lord! do not withdraw,
Lest want of aw
Make Sinne appeare;
And when thou dost but shine lesse cleare,
Say, that thou art not here.

George Herbert, "A Parodie"
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