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  #31  
Old Apr 17, '12, 3:06 am
heaintheavy heaintheavy is offline
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Default Re: Looking for support for not attending a gay wedding ceremony

[quote=InSearchofGrace;9191526]
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaddyGirl View Post

I beg to differ. It was not rude to say what I did in reply to the OP. If you read the first two sentences in my post, and the substance of the links I provided, you would get what I was imparting to Enceladus. The advice of the two priests the OP approached are not necessarily opposed. The second was more nuanced and specific.

Which is the "Cath-advice" that you don't agree with, the instruction in the Catechism on sin and scandal? Of course, you would not support Catholic instruction. Your advice is, in short, "I hope you attend the wedding!"

Was your post one of love that you were imparting at 3 a.m. or a quick secular / non-Catholic advice for a Catholic with a dilemma to do the easy thing but will affirm a prohibited union according to Catholic teaching?

Your faith i.d. says "off-the-record" and in your words, you do not follow the Catholic religion, which is not to say that the posters who identify as "Catholic, attending an Episcopalian Church," or catholic with a small "c," necessarily follow Catholic teaching.

The poster is a Catholic, unless you missed it. And this is a Catholic apostolate. Please read the stated mission of Catholic Answers.
,

I beg to differ. IMO, the DG poster was trying to help...even open minded enough to try and give the original poster the proper Catholic answer, plus giving her own opinion, too--and doing both with kindness.

Just because she is not listing what her religion is, doesn't mean she is "without God" or trying to give the "easy way out". Far from. Your view is very negative, that's too bad.
You are completely misreading her post!
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  #32  
Old Apr 17, '12, 5:45 am
heart4home heart4home is offline
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Default Re: Looking for support for not attending a gay wedding ceremony

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdpreacher View Post
There are good arguments for both going and not going.

HAving said that: If a Cardinal could allow a gay man to sit on a parish council, maybe you could go to the wedding.


http://news.yahoo.com/austrian-cardi...173459111.html
While this saddens me ,since scripture clearly teaches us not to socialize with "brothers" who commit sexually immoral acts, I'm not sure it is equal to being a "witness without expressed objection" of an event that's sole purpose is to unite two people to spend a lifetime in a sinful relationship. A true celebration of an immoral union.

The council is not there to celebrate the gay man's life. They are there to oversee certain issues within the parish.

Of course if priests, and now even higher ups like cardinals, continue to choose to ignore the sinful and disordered nature of same sex unions, by welcoming those who are in open participation of such into active roles within the church, than we can fully expect this situation to soon come to the exact same place as things like contraception have. With a large majority believing that the Church really doesn't believe those teachings anymore.....and that it's just not loving to expect people to live by those old fashioned rules.
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  #33  
Old Apr 17, '12, 5:46 am
PatriceA PatriceA is offline
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Default Re: Looking for support for not attending a gay wedding ceremony

[quote=heaintheavy;9193071]
Quote:
Originally Posted by InSearchofGrace View Post


I beg to differ. IMO, the DG poster was trying to help...even open minded enough to try and give the original poster the proper Catholic answer, plus giving her own opinion, too--and doing both with kindness.

Just because she is not listing what her religion is, doesn't mean she is "without God" or trying to give the "easy way out". Far from. Your view is very negative, that's too bad.
You are completely misreading her post!
Except the OP is Catholic, looking for advice from other Catholics, specifically teachings for the Catechism or Canon law to help in the situation. A non-Catholic is not in the position to advise a Catholic on the official teachings of the Catholic Church. To advise someone of the Catholic faith to just go to the wedding ceremony without knowledge of what our Church teaches is irresponsible and a bit arrogant.

OP, if you read the link provided earlier in the thread about the "Gay Engagement Pary", you'll find scripture and links to the information you may be looking for.
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  #34  
Old Apr 17, '12, 5:49 am
heart4home heart4home is offline
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Default Re: Looking for support for not attending a gay wedding ceremony

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatriceA View Post

Except the OP is Catholic, looking for advice from other Catholics, specifically teachings for the Catechism or Canon law to help in the situation. A non-Catholic is not in the position to advise a Catholic on the official teachings of the Catholic Church. To advise someone of the Catholic faith to just go to the wedding ceremony without knowledge of what our Church teaches is irresponsible and a bit arrogant.
In all fairness the person who replied openly admitted that they were NOT Catholic and that they hoped a Catholic would come along and give a more accurate Catholic answer.

Let's be charitable and assume their intent was of good will, and also accept that the OP is a grown up and can discern which replies to accept advice from and which to ignore. It's not like the person was "pretending" to be Catholic while giving totally NON-catholic replies.
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  #35  
Old Apr 17, '12, 6:10 am
PatriceA PatriceA is offline
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Default Re: Looking for support for not attending a gay wedding ceremony

Quote:
Originally Posted by heart4home View Post
In all fairness the person who replied openly admitted that they were NOT Catholic and that they hoped a Catholic would come along and give a more accurate Catholic answer.

Let's be charitable and assume their intent was of good will, and also accept that the OP is a grown up and can discern which replies to accept advice from and which to ignore. It's not like the person was "pretending" to be Catholic while giving totally NON-catholic replies.
I disagree. A catholic asks for specific Catholic teachings, a non-Catholic responds and specifically tells the OP to do something that potentially goes against Catholic teachings.

Let's accept that the OP was specifically asking for Catholic teachings and scripture, not for people's own opinions about what the OP should do or not do .
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  #36  
Old Apr 17, '12, 6:43 am
SpeSalvi SpeSalvi is offline
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Default Re: Looking for support for not attending a gay wedding ceremony

OP, I'm dealing with the exact same thing. My sister came out as openly gay about a year ago and she and her partner have started thinking about doing a wedding ceremony. They asked me outright last weekend if I would attend if they had one, and I told them that, although I love them and support them as individuals, I cannot support their union. I've never isolated them or treated my sister's partner with anything but love, but I could still see the hurt in my sister's eyes when I explained that I wouldn't go.

I wrapped up by explaining that, since they asked outright, I respected and loved them too much to sugar-coat my words to make them feel better.

Honestly, I'm hurting as well right now thinking about the fact that my sister's feelings will be hurt if I'm not there. However, I'm taking a lot of comfort in knowing that God has called us to love one another, and sometimes love means not condoning behavior that could damage a person's soul. I don't condone my husband's smoking out of love and care for his well being, and I can't condone my sister's lifestyle for the same reason.

I know it's probably painful, especially if you're particularly close to your sister (I know I am), but know that you're not alone; there are others going through it and an entire CHURCH that you can turn to for support. Not to mention the fact that we know we can turn to God for comfort in doing the right thing.
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  #37  
Old Apr 17, '12, 7:04 am
johnnyc176 johnnyc176 is offline
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Default Re: Looking for support for not attending a gay wedding ceremony

This issue has been raised many times on this forum. The following (highlighted) links should help you with your decision and what are the Catholic Church teachings.


http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=352494
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  #38  
Old Apr 17, '12, 7:27 am
ExGratia ExGratia is offline
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Default Re: Looking for support for not attending a gay wedding ceremony

Besides the many other excellent replies about not attending, there is one more reason: honesty. I can't imagine going to such a celebration because you would likely end up saying "Congratulations" and smiling in pictures and other obvious supports of this mockery of the sacrament. Even though you believe it is wrong, the witness you are giving is that it is right.

Even if you privately tell your sister you do not approve, you would not likely tell all of the other individual guests. Indeed, your sister would probably prefer you not attend rather than do attend and make it clear to everyone your disapproval. That would be more damaging to your relationship with her.

Another poster mentioned that they publicly sinned in the past and that it would have been nice if their family had stood up for the truth. I agree completely. We are immersed in relativism in our "modern" society and it is hard to stand up for the truth. But living authentically and truthfully is the only way to spiritual perfection and salvation.

Pray, pray, pray for your family, for your self, for your sister and for her accomplice in sin. Offer masses for your sister. Pray the rosary. Be a witness and a gentle witness to your sister. Don't despair even if she does go through with this. With God, all things are possible and your sister is a beloved child of the Father. Hope and pray that she will come home to the true Church. I am praying now and am very hopeful!
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  #39  
Old Apr 17, '12, 11:54 am
thewanderer thewanderer is offline
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Thumbs up Re: Looking for support for not attending a gay wedding ceremony

This is by far the best advice on this thread!
Quote:
Originally Posted by EasterJoy View Post
OP, have you talked to your sister about how to handle the obvious situation that a) your views of what moral law demands are substantially different and b) you still want to love and respect each other's views and find a way to accomodate the need you each have to live according to right and wrong as you understand it?

Your sister loves you. You love her. I am going to assume that your sister may think she is entirely clear on what your* moral compass tells you but she may not actually know the nuances of what you believe.

Find a quiet and private time and tell her you need to approach this as two people from totally different cultures, with real differences but also with a desire to live in peace in spite of your differences. This is not about politics that might be taking place "out there" somewhere. This is about you being convinced you have the truth, she being convinced she does, and living together without a religious war over it. This is about living your relationship with each other in a way that neither charity nor personal integrity is given short shrift.

Ask her to explain what she thinks someone in your situation ought to do, short of simply capitulating and putting her moral law in place of yours: because of course either of you could try to expect that, and good luck!. Then you can have your turn. Do not argue with her and therefore insist that for the purpose of this conversation, she not argue with you. The goal is not to come out with a single compromise moral law, but rather to come to an understanding of how you're going to navigate your real moral differnces with integrity and love. At that point, you'll each at least know what the other one thinks, and won't be so likely to make rash assumptions.

It may be that your sister will be OK with the idea that you can welcome the person she is bringing into the family circle as a human being but feel that if you came to their wedding would wind up being a liar, a hypocrite, a troublemaker, a wet towel, or some combination of all of the above. It is OK to say that it is a sad state of affairs for both of you, but it is what it is. She may also go ballistic, but at least she will have heard all of this from your mouth, and vice versa. If there is going to be a conflict, let it take place in real time between you, and not by guesswork and gossip travelling by way of intermediaries.

Make your decision after you've talked to your sister.

(*I would always state your stance not as "the Church says" but as "my morals say", because one's own personally-formed conscience is what mints all the coin of the moral realm in our times. Stay on that ground: the Church teaches it, yes, but in the end the driving concern is that this my deep personal belief. IOW, this problem is about us and a difference between us, not about Rome butting into our relationship by rules imposed on me against my will. I think that will give you the most honest results, whatever that turns out to be.)
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  #40  
Old Apr 17, '12, 12:07 pm
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InSearchofGrace InSearchofGrace is offline
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Default Re: Looking for support for not attending a gay wedding ceremony

Quote:
Except the OP is Catholic, looking for advice from other Catholics, specifically teachings for the Catechism or Canon law to help in the situation. A non-Catholic is not in the position to advise a Catholic on the official teachings of the Catholic Church. To advise someone of the Catholic faith to just go to the wedding ceremony without knowledge of what our Church teaches is irresponsible and a bit arrogant.

OP, if you read the link provided earlier in the thread about the "Gay Engagement Pary", you'll find scripture and links to the information you may be looking for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatriceA View Post
I disagree. A catholic asks for specific Catholic teachings, a non-Catholic responds and specifically tells the OP to do something that potentially goes against Catholic teachings.

Let's accept that the OP was specifically asking for Catholic teachings and scripture, not for people's own opinions about what the OP should do or not do .
Exactly. Do posters of the opposing view realize they are in the Catholic Living, Family sub-forum, not in the Non-Catholic section?

When a Catholic member brings up a Catholic concern to his/her community, why would people from another feel an appropriateness to offer advice potentially outside teaching and guideline of the inquirer's faith?

It would be like a guest who makes him/herself so much at home in somebody else's, gets comfortable on the sofa, puts up his/her feet on the coffee table, or wallks to and opens the ref to look for a drink. The family members of the person being visited are at home. Would not the behavior of the guest come across as unseemly? Who would be the rude one?
,
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Last edited by InSearchofGrace; Apr 17, '12 at 12:24 pm.
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  #41  
Old Apr 17, '12, 1:15 pm
Enceladus Enceladus is offline
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Default Re: Looking for support for not attending a gay wedding ceremony

Thank you all for your very kind and thoughtful responses. I appreciate all of you who were willing to take the time to contribute to this discussion. Your responses have given me a lot to think about.

I thought I'd share some thoughts after reading though the thread. First of all, I'm not a girl! Lol! I've noticed some of the replies have taken to referring to the OP as "her," not sure where this came from exactly but just thought I'd clarify. It did make for some very entertaining reading though ;-)

I've also notice that some have pointed out that even the most clear and concise Church teaching on the subject wouldn't be likely to sway my sister. In that you all are correct. But I was really more looking for the teaching for my own benefit and comfort. You see, I've already made waves in the family for refusing to be my baby sister's Godfather. My parents are divorced and my father remarried and had another child. While I was honored that he would think of me for such a role, he was divorced and his new wife was Lutheran so the baptism had to be into the Lutheran church. Getting up before God and that congregation and proclaiming that I would swear to help guide my new sister in an alien faith was a pretty bright red line for me. I knew it was something I couldn't do, and getting confirmation for my intuition from some fairly concise Church guidelines was a great comfort for me while I endured some of the family difficulties after the fallout from my refusal.

But on this issue I'm not as sure. My feeling is so long as I make my views on the matter clear and don't take an active role in the ceremony that it might be ok. The way I look at it, there is no bright red line here for me to appeal to, even in my own thinking. And I see only pain and anger if I do not go. I also think that the possibility of scandal by my attendance is remote. As the only remaining practicing Catholic in my family my feelings on gay marriage are widely known, I am certain that no one in my family would view my attendance as some kind of tacit support of my sister's actions. But they would view my absence as some kind of judgmental snub. And so whatever limited weight they might currently give my views on this or any other matter of faith would be even further diminished which would limit my ability to bring the Truth of the Gospel to them wouldn't it?

Anyway, those are my thoughts for the moment. Thank you all again for your kind support and guidance.
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  #42  
Old Apr 17, '12, 1:19 pm
EasterJoy EasterJoy is offline
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Default Re: Looking for support for not attending a gay wedding ceremony

Quote:
Originally Posted by InSearchofGrace View Post
Exactly. Do posters of the opposing view realize they are in the Catholic Living, Family sub-forum, not in the Non-Catholic section?

When a Catholic member brings up a Catholic concern to his/her community, why would people from another feel an appropriateness to offer advice potentially outside teaching and guideline of the inquirer's faith?

It would be like a guest who makes him/herself so much at home in somebody else's, gets comfortable on the sofa, puts up his/her feet on the coffee table, or wallks to and opens the ref to look for a drink. The family members of the person being visited are at home. Would not the behavior of the guest come across as unseemly? Who would be the rude one?
,
Having said that, it is customary to treat all guests, even rude guests, as guests.

Or, as St. Benedict put it:

Chapter 53: On the Reception of Guests

Let all guests who arrive be received like Christ,
for He is going to say,
"I came as a guest, and you received Me" (Matt. 25:35).
And to all let due honor be shown,
especially to the domestics of the faith and to pilgrims....

In the salutation of all guests, whether arriving or departing,
let all humility be shown.
Let the head be bowed
or the whole body prostrated on the ground
in adoration of Christ, who indeed is received in their persons...

In the reception of the poor and of pilgrims
the greatest care and solicitude should be shown,
because it is especially in them that Christ is received;
for as far as the rich are concerned,
the very fear which they inspire
wins respect for them...


selection from The Rule of St. Benedict, Ch. 53.

This guest has not presumed to present herself as a Catholic, but took pains to offer her opinion as clearly coming from a non-Catholic visitor who merely wanted to salute the OP for having a desire to be gentle with his sister's feelings. Since CA does not forbid non-Catholics to post, we ought not do so, either, particularly when they are not at all trying to pass off their personal opinions as the teaching of the Church.
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  #43  
Old Apr 17, '12, 3:14 pm
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InSearchofGrace InSearchofGrace is offline
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Default Re: Looking for support for not attending a gay wedding ceremony

Quote:
Originally Posted by EasterJoy View Post
Having said that, it is customary to treat all guests, even rude guests, as guests.

...

This guest has not presumed to present herself as a Catholic, but took pains to offer her opinion as clearly coming from a non-Catholic visitor who merely wanted to salute the OP for having a desire to be gentle with his sister's feelings. Since CA does not forbid non-Catholics to post, we ought not do so, either, particularly when they are not at all trying to pass off their personal opinions as the teaching of the Church.
EJ, I appreciate what you say. However, the guest was the first to fling the word 'rude' when I posted the cites to the discussion and links providing moral principles in queries on attending a relative's or friend's gay 'wedding' with a mention that some non-Catholics are quick to give an answer to a Catholic concern. Read posts #3 and #16. It might be too strong to say that initial offender took offense, but that's why I posed the question (rhetorically) who is the rude one here in my last post above.

PatriceA understood my point. You seemed to have missed it. DaddyGirl's post (#2) does not come across to me as it does to you. I will not speculate on her motive here, hence my use of the interrogative form instead of the declarative form.

Catholic Answers does not forbid non-Catholics to post indeed, but it does advise for members to choose their forums carefully in opening threads. The rule extends in my opinion to responders to OPs. I will leave it to the mods to correct me in this regard if I am wrong.

Hospitality is expected of hosts. So is graciousness on the part of guests.

All that said, I am delighted to hear from the OP. He sounds like he has his Catholic values (and heart) in the right place!
,
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Last edited by InSearchofGrace; Apr 17, '12 at 3:29 pm.
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  #44  
Old Apr 17, '12, 3:26 pm
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Kathryn Ann Kathryn Ann is offline
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Default Re: Looking for support for not attending a gay wedding ceremony

Dear Friend, I hope this scripture will help!

1 Thessalonians 5:22

"Abstain from all appearance of evil."


And I would not attend myself, as it might appear to some that I was condoning it.

St. Paul also speaks of being careful not to offend those who are new or weak in the faith.

Sometimes, our faith might even allow us to do something which does not take away from our walk as Catholics, but we must, in all charity, remember those who either look up to us, or who might think we are condoning something sinful.

We do not live only unto ourselves. Christian love helps us to remember that appearances can cause others to falter in their burgeoning faith.
Blessings,
Kathryn Ann
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  #45  
Old Apr 20, '12, 10:57 pm
heaintheavy heaintheavy is offline
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Default Re: Looking for support for not attending a gay wedding ceremony

Quote:
Originally Posted by EasterJoy View Post
Having said that, it is customary to treat all guests, even rude guests, as guests.
.

But do you really think DG was rude? Re-read her first post--it was entirely honest and loving.
And her second post looked like shock and hurt by what that other poster said in response to her attempt to reach out to someone who said they were "looking for support" when no one else was there.

But back to the original question:

I do wonder...
If the original poster was getting married in a Catholic ceremony and his gay sister didn't agree with Catholic teachings because they were against all that she believed...would the brother be completely understanding if the gay sister did not attend his wedding?

I guess he would respect and encourage her actions, even if they caused a lot of family hurt and alienation?
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