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  #61  
Old Apr 17, '12, 11:36 pm
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YoungTradCath YoungTradCath is offline
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Default Re: Celebrant without chasuble?

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Originally Posted by SKWill View Post
You're not confusing a tippet with a black stole, are you?
No.
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  #62  
Old Apr 19, '12, 7:16 am
Br Mark Br Mark is offline
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Default Re: Celebrant without chasuble?

There are several reasons why I do not wear a chasuble while celebrating the Eucharist / Mass. For example when I am at a parish as a supply priest, if that parish does not have a chasuble or the chasubles that they do have are not in good repair; I will not wear one, I do not have a set of chasubles of my own since I am a member of a religious order.
Secondly I wear what is know as a chasuble alb which covers my relgious habit and wear a stole on top. I am aware that there are many here that say there is no such thing as a chasuble alb, but alais there is; and in fact there are many a national conferences of bishops that have approved usage of the chasuble alb.

I am reminded of an episode of the Superman TV Show, where Jimmy Olsen finds Superman costume in Clark Kent's apartment and puts it on thinking that the costume will give him super human powers but to his dismay it does not.

Mass is not magic, Mass is mystery............welcome to the mystic !


By the way for those of you who are members of the rubric patrol I do not wear either the amice or the maniple as well.

May we all find peace in Christ ! He is Risen ! He is Risen indeed !

Br Mark osb
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  #63  
Old Apr 19, '12, 2:19 pm
The Curt Jester The Curt Jester is offline
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Default Re: Celebrant without chasuble?

Where I work, the assistant priest does not wear a chasuble. However, I have heard that he has special dispensation from the diocese to do so due to health reasons.
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  #64  
Old Apr 19, '12, 4:35 pm
EasterJoy EasterJoy is offline
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Default Re: Celebrant without chasuble?

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Originally Posted by Br Mark View Post
...For example when I am at a parish as a supply priest, if that parish does not have a chasuble or the chasubles that they do have are not in good repair; I will not wear one, I do not have a set of chasubles of my own since I am a member of a religious order....
Some parishes also only have one size chasuble, and it is for a rather tall or a rather small priests. Priests of the opposite size might look rather ridiculous in an alb that is clearly not their size. If no clean chasuble of the correct size and in good repair is available, that is the same as "there is no chasuble available".
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  #65  
Old Apr 24, '12, 3:26 pm
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Matthew Holford Matthew Holford is offline
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Default Re: Celebrant without chasuble?

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Originally Posted by Br Mark View Post
... I do not wear either the amice ...
Why don't you wear an amice? Please correct if I'm wrong but the rubrics do require one to be worn unless the alb covers the clothes under the alb which would show at the neck. I'm interested in this because while you seem to have a low opinion of what you term the "rubric patrol" you indicate that you are a Benedictine. It is my understanding that you will in your vows have promised obedience to the Church. How does a vow of obedience equate with making a personal choice that might be at variance with the Church's own rubrics.

Now I accept that first of all you may wear an alb that meets the rubrical requirements. So, that would render the rest of my question redundant. Furthermore, I am not saying that you do not fulfil your vow of obedience.

What I am asking you is how you might disregard a rubric yet still be faithful to the obedience required by your vows?

My question may almost certainly be phrased better but I'm looking at where the limits to a religious' obedience are.
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  #66  
Old Apr 24, '12, 8:05 pm
superamazingman superamazingman is offline
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Default Re: Celebrant without chasuble?

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Originally Posted by The Curt Jester View Post
Where I work, the assistant priest does not wear a chasuble. However, I have heard that he has special dispensation from the diocese to do so due to health reasons.
Well of course... there's dispensations from pretty much anything for serious health reasons
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  #67  
Old Apr 25, '12, 12:00 am
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Sherry G Sherry G is offline
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Default Re: Celebrant without chasuble?

My l ast parish was quite large with approx 7,000 parishoners. When our parish priest died, we got a new priest who defied almost every tradition, strode about the parish mostly in his designer clothing, wanted to be called "bob", not father Bob, etc. He saw nothing wrong with carrying anti catholic literatue in the church library, thinking we all deserve to hear all sides of the truth, etc. Happily, I moved away and am so happy in my new parish with a most reverent priest who meticulously follows the rubrics and celebrates Mass with such reverence my heart sings.
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  #68  
Old Apr 25, '12, 12:33 am
Veronica Anne Veronica Anne is offline
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Default Re: Celebrant without chasuble?

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Originally Posted by Filii Dei View Post
In all fairness, I think that cultural differences may be an issue here. Mrs Sally wouldn't be wrong in saying that liturgical abuses may be rare in the places she has visited. Likewise, I have found that liturgical abuses are far fewer and less severe in other places (especially mission countries, mind) than in western countries. And certain dioceses seem more likely to toy with liturgical precepts than others. One can only speculate at the cause.

As for liturgical dance, I have seen liturgical dance being performed in Africa, but they are more restrained and less flamboyant than what's happening in this album. I still disapprove, but I understand that dance manifests itself in their joy of celebration. Regardless, the solemnity of mass must never be usurped by a tendency towards over-exuberance. Perhaps they will understand in time. After mass and outside the church, perhaps, but not during.

I believe in one, holy, CATHOLIC, and apostolic Church.

This means "catholic." The word "catholic" means "universal."

Means transcendent across all cultures.

In that area of the world's culture, dance is done for practicing the sacred liturgy. It's not like they're a bunch of teens in the movie Footloose!

In America, "dancing" at the sacred liturgy would mean something else, altogether.

We're Catholic. All of us. Around the world.

Perhaps each and every one of us will understand this in time, too!

Pax vobiscum.
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  #69  
Old Apr 25, '12, 12:40 am
Veronica Anne Veronica Anne is offline
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Default Re: Celebrant without chasuble?

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Originally Posted by Jon in the Nati View Post
GIRM 299 tells us that the chasuble, worn over the alb and stole, is the vestment proper to the celebrant at Mass. Is this to be interpreted as saying that it is not licit for the celebrant to celebrate mass wearing only alb and stole?

If so, why are so many clergy so insistent on not wearing a chasuble for mass? To be fair, it generally happens in loosey-goosey suburban parishes, of the kind that are rife with liturgical abuses anyhow, so I suppose one cannot be too surprised.
Wow. That's a pretty judgemental statement you just made there. The one about "loosey-goosey suburban parishes" being rife with liturgical abuses, anyhow.

I'm in the suburbs. Always have been. I wonder what it is about the "suburbs" being more rife (according to you) with this practice?

My priest wears that long, white alb (I guess that's what it's called -- "alb") down to the floor completely over his regular clothing.

Over that, he wears a fancy stole around his neck. Or, sometimes a simpler stole. In any case, the stole he wears is very wide and NOT at all to be missed. Especially because its colors are such a contrast to the complete white of his floor-length white alb.

Sometimes at a particular parish, the priest who's there does it the same way as my own priest.

Other parishes I've belonged to, the priest wears ALL of the vestments.

All of these priests -- no matter whether they're wearing the chasuble (too) or not -- are just as in touch and consistent with the rubrics for celebrating a holy, solemn, and joyful Mass.

I'd be loathe to make a judgement on the validity of their priesthood if they did not wear a chasuble at Mass.

The priest we currently have had at my parish for the last 7 years is a really great homilist! Most weeks, during his homily he'll give us homework to do for the upcoming week. That homework does NOTHING BUT help us to be better Christians.

The way my priest conducts himself at the altar is solemn, slow, measured walking. He pauses for a VERY long time when he lifts the consecrated Host and Chalice. VERY long. Looking directly at it with no loss of attention to what (well, Who) he's holding way high up in front of us all.

After he gives his homily, he walks slowly back behind the altar (where his chair is located) and sits there for at least 4 minutes so that we can all have a chance to let the Gospel and his homily sink in. Often, the homework he gives requires us to decide HOW and WHERE we are going to do that week's homework. So, this gives us a chance to "catch up" mentally with what we'd just heard him say in his homily. Truly, a blessing that he recognizes the need for a bit of silence DURING the Mass. That silence actually IS specified in the rubrics (I think).

And so, the last thing I'd want to do is consider his viability as a priest to be dependent on whether he chose to wear a chasuble.

For all I know, our bishop has dispensed all priests in our diocese from HAVING to wear a chasuble if they chose not to do so.

The only garment required for a valid Sacrament to be conferred -- Baptism, Reconciliation, Sacrament of the Sick, Confirmation, Matrimony, Holy Orders, Eucharist -- is the stole. Period.
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Last edited by Veronica Anne; Apr 25, '12 at 12:52 am.
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  #70  
Old Apr 25, '12, 9:13 am
superamazingman superamazingman is offline
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Default Re: Celebrant without chasuble?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veronica Anne View Post
Wow. That's a pretty judgemental statement you just made there. The one about "loosey-goosey suburban parishes" being rife with liturgical abuses, anyhow.
Well, it's true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Veronica Anne View Post
My priest wears that long, white alb (I guess that's what it's called -- "alb") down to the floor completely over his regular clothing.

Over that, he wears a fancy stole around his neck. Or, sometimes a simpler stole. In any case, the stole he wears is very wide and NOT at all to be missed. Especially because its colors are such a contrast to the complete white of his floor-length white alb.

Sometimes at a particular parish, the priest who's there does it the same way as my own priest.

Other parishes I've belonged to, the priest wears ALL of the vestments.

All of these priests -- no matter whether they're wearing the chasuble (too) or not -- are just as in touch and consistent with the rubrics for celebrating a holy, solemn, and joyful Mass.:
Are you just making this up? Or is this a joke?!?!

The rubrics specify that a chusable must be worn. If they don't follow the rubrics, they aren't following the rubrics (or, as you put it, "in touch" with the rubrics).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veronica Anne View Post
The priest we currently have had at my parish for the last 7 years is a really great homilist! Most weeks, during his homily he'll give us homework to do for the upcoming week. That homework does NOTHING BUT help us to be better Christians.

The way my priest conducts himself at the altar is solemn, slow, measured walking. He pauses for a VERY long time when he lifts the consecrated Host and Chalice. VERY long. Looking directly at it with no loss of attention to what (well, Who) he's holding way high up in front of us all.

After he gives his homily, he walks slowly back behind the altar (where his chair is located) and sits there for at least 4 minutes so that we can all have a chance to let the Gospel and his homily sink in. Often, the homework he gives requires us to decide HOW and WHERE we are going to do that week's homework. So, this gives us a chance to "catch up" mentally with what we'd just heard him say in his homily. Truly, a blessing that he recognizes the need for a bit of silence DURING the Mass. That silence actually IS specified in the rubrics (I think).:
Indeed, it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Veronica Anne View Post
For all I know, our bishop has dispensed all priests in our diocese from HAVING to wear a chasuble if they chose not to do so. :
That wouldn't happen. It just wouldn't
Quote:
Originally Posted by Veronica Anne View Post
The only garment required for a valid Sacrament to be conferred -- Baptism, Reconciliation, Sacrament of the Sick, Confirmation, Matrimony, Holy Orders, Eucharist -- is the stole. Period.
Again, are you just making this up? If you're speaking of "Required" as in "required for validity," no garment, stole or otherwise, is required. But if you're speaking of "required" as in "what the rubrics require," that's simply false!! More than a stole is needed.

Seriously, Veronica, are you just making this up?!?
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  #71  
Old Apr 25, '12, 9:28 am
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YoungTradCath YoungTradCath is offline
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Default Re: Celebrant without chasuble?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veronica Anne View Post
The only garment required for a valid Sacrament to be conferred -- Baptism, Reconciliation, Sacrament of the Sick, Confirmation, Matrimony, Holy Orders, Eucharist -- is the stole. Period.
I would like to point out that no garment is require for the valid confection of a sacrament, none at all. But that isn't the point. The point is that the Church has for thousands of years required that priests wear a chasuble during the celebration of the Mass, and still does.
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  #72  
Old Apr 25, '12, 10:12 am
The Curt Jester The Curt Jester is offline
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Default Re: Celebrant without chasuble?

Where I work (and where the one priest has a medical dispensation), the pastor has told me that in ordinary cases, the priest is required to wear a chasuble. The assistant is using a special exception, not exercising his freedom to choose as he likes.
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  #73  
Old Apr 26, '12, 7:55 am
Br Mark Br Mark is offline
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Default Re: Celebrant without chasuble?

As I stated before I wear a chasuble alb which covers my habit when I celebrate the Eucharist, and hence I do not need to wear a amice. I can not speak for other priest, but I have noticed that the usage of the amice is rare, with the exception of those priests that are members of EF communities.

As to my vow of obedience, it is not obedience created in a vaccume. My vow of obedience is foremost to Christ, and then to the Abbot of the community in conjuction with relationship to the community as a whole. Obedience is born through this relationship and is tested / discerned in community within the community as a whole. Obedience is not blind for each member is called and is given gifts from God to building up the body of Christ; so from the most senior member to the youngest novice their voices must be hear so that truth may be known and manifested so that obedience may be lived out.


Hope this answers your question.

May the Love of Christ fill your life,

Br Mark osb
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  #74  
Old Apr 26, '12, 8:29 am
wasserfall wasserfall is offline
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Default Re: Celebrant without chasuble?

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Originally Posted by Br Mark View Post
As to my vow of obedience, it is not obedience created in a vaccume. My vow of obedience is foremost to Christ, and then to the Abbot of the community in conjuction with relationship to the community as a whole. Obedience is born through this relationship and is tested / discerned in community within the community as a whole. Obedience is not blind for each member is called and is given gifts from God to building up the body of Christ; so from the most senior member to the youngest novice their voices must be hear so that truth may be known and manifested so that obedience may be lived out.
Obedience to your superior and to the Church is obedience to Christ. Christ's will is that you obey the Church and your superior, so it is not possible to obey Christ by disobeying the Church or your superior. There is absolutely no place for 'discernment' about the extent of your obedience.

”The obedience which we render to a superior is paid to God, Who says, ‘He that hears you hears Me;’ so that whatever he who holds the place of God commands, supposing it is not evidently contrary to God's law, is to be received by us as if it came from God Himself; for it is the same thing to know His Will, either from His Own, from an Angel's, or from a man's mouth.”
--Saint Bernard of Clairvaux, Father and Doctor of the Church

”Saint Paul commands us to obey all superiors, even those who are bad. Our Blessed Saviour, His Virgin Mother, and Saint Joseph have taught us this kind of obedience in the journey they took from Nazareth to Bethlehem, when Caesar published an edict that his subjects should repair to the place of their nativity to be enrolled. They complied with this order with the most affectionate obedience, though the Emperor was a pagan and an idolator, so desirous was Our Lord of showing us that we should never regard the persons of those who command, provided they be invested with sufficient authority.”
-Saint Francis of Sales, Doctor of the Church

”The more we see that any action springs not from the motive of obedience, the more evident is it that it is a temptation of the enemy; for when God sends an inspiration, the very first effect of it is to infuse a spirit of docility.”
-Saint Teresa of Avila, Doctor of the Church

”See God in your superiors; so shall you learn to revere their will and follow their commands. Be well assured that obedience is the safest guide and most faithful interpreter of the Divine Will. Pour out your hearts to them as freely as water, mindful that they are charged with the direction of your souls. . . . Above all, do not be your own master, relying on your own prudence, contrary to the caution of the wise man.”
--Saint Ignatius, Father of the Church
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  #75  
Old Apr 26, '12, 5:16 pm
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Tarpeian Rock Tarpeian Rock is offline
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Default Re: Celebrant without chasuble?

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Originally Posted by wasserfall View Post
Obedience to your superior and to the Church is obedience to Christ. Christ's will is that you obey the Church and your superior, so it is not possible to obey Christ by disobeying the Church or your superior. There is absolutely no place for 'discernment' about the extent of your obedience.

”The obedience which we render to a superior is paid to God, Who says, ‘He that hears you hears Me;’ so that whatever he who holds the place of God commands, supposing it is not evidently contrary to God's law, is to be received by us as if it came from God Himself; for it is the same thing to know His Will, either from His Own, from an Angel's, or from a man's mouth.”
--Saint Bernard of Clairvaux, Father and Doctor of the Church

”Saint Paul commands us to obey all superiors, even those who are bad. Our Blessed Saviour, His Virgin Mother, and Saint Joseph have taught us this kind of obedience in the journey they took from Nazareth to Bethlehem, when Caesar published an edict that his subjects should repair to the place of their nativity to be enrolled. They complied with this order with the most affectionate obedience, though the Emperor was a pagan and an idolator, so desirous was Our Lord of showing us that we should never regard the persons of those who command, provided they be invested with sufficient authority.”
-Saint Francis of Sales, Doctor of the Church

”The more we see that any action springs not from the motive of obedience, the more evident is it that it is a temptation of the enemy; for when God sends an inspiration, the very first effect of it is to infuse a spirit of docility.”
-Saint Teresa of Avila, Doctor of the Church

”See God in your superiors; so shall you learn to revere their will and follow their commands. Be well assured that obedience is the safest guide and most faithful interpreter of the Divine Will. Pour out your hearts to them as freely as water, mindful that they are charged with the direction of your souls. . . . Above all, do not be your own master, relying on your own prudence, contrary to the caution of the wise man.”
--Saint Ignatius, Father of the Church



These quotes about unquestioning obedience to superiors - "even those who are bad" - ring pretty hollow in the wake of the cover-ups of the abuse scandals, to say nothing of what we learned in the Nuremburg trials after World War II.
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