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  #211  
Old Apr 18, '12, 4:57 am
grannymh grannymh is offline
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Default Re: Adam and Eve? That's just mythology, says Pell

Animals are made of matter and they exist as matter because matter is their nature.

It is because of the God-created spiritual soul, that matter became the first human person. It is not the reverse where some animals, over centuries, developed their own spiritual soul because it was a good idea for society.

The reality of Adam's relationship with the Creator makes it clear how and why humans do not have the same nature as animals.
  #212  
Old Apr 18, '12, 7:44 am
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buffalo buffalo is offline
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Default Re: Adam and Eve? That's just mythology, says Pell

Quote:
Originally Posted by garysibio View Post
Sadly a lot of Catholics, including good, faithful Catholics, don't realize that just because the Bible was not written as a scientific text that it doesn't mean that when it touches on science it is just as inerrant as when it touches on spiritual topics. If we can't take Gen 1-11 at face value, how can we rationally accept Gen 12-50? And if not Genesis, how can we accept the rest of Scripture? If sin didn't enter the world in the way the Bible says, how can we know that Jesus died and rose again to set us free from sin?

There are quite a few problems with the theory of evolution. The fossil record doesn't support it at all. The Bible has outlasted other theories about the origins of the universe and it will be standing when this theory falls as well. It's not wise to bet against the Holy Spirit.
That is what this shows:

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IDvolution - God "breathed" the super language of DNA into the "kinds" in the creative act. Buffalo

"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is a thought of God."

“Science presupposes the trustworthy, intelligent structure of matter, the ‘design’ of creation.”

"A man of conscience, is one who never acquires tolerance, well- being, success, public standing, and approval on the part of prevailing opinion, at the expense of truth."
Pope Benedict XVI

  #213  
Old Apr 18, '12, 7:59 am
Bubba Switzler Bubba Switzler is offline
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Default Re: Adam and Eve? That's just mythology, says Pell

Quote:
Originally Posted by buffalo View Post
That is what this shows:

That's pertty good.
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  #214  
Old Apr 18, '12, 9:07 am
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Default Re: Adam and Eve? That's just mythology, says Pell

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChesterBeach View Post
From the IDvolution website - emphasis mine



I may be misreading this but This seems to be saying that life forms are perfectly made for their environments. How are you accounting for that 98% of the species that ever existed are now extinct.
They are adaptable to their environments because they have that built in capability. As time has gone on the ravages of corruption have taken their toll, but it wasn't that way in the beginning.
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IDvolution - God "breathed" the super language of DNA into the "kinds" in the creative act. Buffalo

"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is a thought of God."

“Science presupposes the trustworthy, intelligent structure of matter, the ‘design’ of creation.”

"A man of conscience, is one who never acquires tolerance, well- being, success, public standing, and approval on the part of prevailing opinion, at the expense of truth."
Pope Benedict XVI

  #215  
Old Apr 18, '12, 9:50 am
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buffalo buffalo is offline
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Default Re: o0-awzx

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChesterBeach View Post
It still seems a backward understanding of evolution. It isn't that the organism adapts to the environment but rather the ones that are best adapted prosper. Environments change and the species that fit that niche in the ecosystem change (or don't) sharks and horseshoe crabs are a good example of species that haven't changed all that much.

Taken their toll in what way? Extinction? Are you saying single cell organisms are the height of all life forms?
IDvolution is not evolution. With evolution the arrow points in the up direction, that is simple organisms to complex. IDvolution is complexity and built in capability right from the get go degrading as time goes on, devolution if you will.

Exactly, what the fossil record shows is abrupt appearance, stasis, with limited variation (adaptation).
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IDvolution - God "breathed" the super language of DNA into the "kinds" in the creative act. Buffalo

"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is a thought of God."

“Science presupposes the trustworthy, intelligent structure of matter, the ‘design’ of creation.”

"A man of conscience, is one who never acquires tolerance, well- being, success, public standing, and approval on the part of prevailing opinion, at the expense of truth."
Pope Benedict XVI

  #216  
Old Apr 18, '12, 10:03 am
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buffalo buffalo is offline
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Default Re: o0-awzx

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChesterBeach View Post
You are saying that each generation is getting progressively worse?
Take a look here:
Dr. John Sanford "Genetic Entropy and the Mystery of the Genome"



some takeaways:

"more and more the genome looks like a super super set of programs"

"more and more it looks like top down design"

"the reality is everybody is mutant"

"the selection process really has nothing to grab hold of"

"so it's kind of a trade secret amongst population geneticists,any well informed population geneticist understands man is degenerating"

"so in deep geological time we should have been extinct a long time ago"

"the human race is degenerating at 1-5% per generation"
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IDvolution - God "breathed" the super language of DNA into the "kinds" in the creative act. Buffalo

"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is a thought of God."

“Science presupposes the trustworthy, intelligent structure of matter, the ‘design’ of creation.”

"A man of conscience, is one who never acquires tolerance, well- being, success, public standing, and approval on the part of prevailing opinion, at the expense of truth."
Pope Benedict XVI

  #217  
Old Apr 18, '12, 10:17 am
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buffalo buffalo is offline
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Default Re: Adam and Eve? That's just mythology, says Pell

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChesterBeach View Post
It's a bunch of quotes out of context with no support evidence. Not sure what you are trying to show.

There is evidence. Watch the video and look at some of the posts and links on the supporting resources pages. Be prepared for a paradigm shift.
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IDvolution - God "breathed" the super language of DNA into the "kinds" in the creative act. Buffalo

"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is a thought of God."

“Science presupposes the trustworthy, intelligent structure of matter, the ‘design’ of creation.”

"A man of conscience, is one who never acquires tolerance, well- being, success, public standing, and approval on the part of prevailing opinion, at the expense of truth."
Pope Benedict XVI

  #218  
Old Apr 18, '12, 3:50 pm
Bubba Switzler Bubba Switzler is offline
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Default Re: Adam and Eve? That's just mythology, says Pell

If anyone is interested, I started a new thread on Domning's concept here:

"Original Selfishness vs. Original Sin"
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  #219  
Old Apr 18, '12, 4:59 pm
tm30 tm30 is offline
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Default Re: Adam and Eve? That's just mythology, says Pell

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Switzler View Post
This is false both from a scientific and from a theological perspective.
It's not theologically false at all. God is pure action. He is direct action. There was no mediation in the Creation of the universe, and that includes the creation of Adam. You continue to assign inefficiency to the act of an eternal being outside all time and motion. There's no "getting from point A to point B" with God. He is at both points without any progression whatsoever. This is why the Incarnation is such a mystery. How can something eternal become temporal? Answer, through mediation of a temporal being (Mary) overshadowed by an eternal being (the Holy Spirit).

God needed no mediation to create the universe -- indeed there was nothing to mediate -- so there is no reason to believe that God would take his greatest creation, man, and create it through an intermediary process like evolution. Ultimately, if there is an argument for evolution, He had to have a greater purpose for it. Now, for One who tells us we are made in his image, there needs to be an explanation why He would put us through a billion years (or whatever) of an evolutionary process from a fish (or whatever) in order to create us, when the very earth this evolution supposedly took place on was created without any mediation whatsoever. Since God has no lack of power, He could not make us less than perfectly in His image. And since there was no sin, there was nothing in us which needed to be perfected, eliminating the idea of evolution.

The other problem here is that it necessitates that Christ Himself descended from other species, since He shared the DNA of the Blessed Mother in becoming flesh.


Wisdom 10:1
Quote:
Wisdom protected the first-formed father of the
world, when he alone had been created;

Sirach 15:4
Quote:
It was he who created man in the beginning,

Sirach 33:10
Quote:
All men are from the ground,
and Adam was created of the dust.

Psalm 148:5
Quote:
Let them praise the name of the LORD!
For he commanded and they were created.
  #220  
Old Apr 18, '12, 5:25 pm
Bubba Switzler Bubba Switzler is offline
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Default Re: Adam and Eve? That's just mythology, says Pell

Quote:
Originally Posted by tm30 View Post
Ultimately, if there is an argument for evolution, He had to have a greater purpose for it. Now, for One who tells us we are made in his image, there needs to be an explanation why He would put us through a billion years (or whatever) of an evolutionary process from a fish (or whatever) in order to create us, when the very earth this evolution supposedly took place on was created without any mediation whatsoever.
Yes, exactly! This is what I have been saying all along. We have plenty of other similar examples, as I have cited, so that this is not out of character of God.

(Note, btw, that cosmological evidence is that the earth was not instantly created. See the Big Bang. The place to look for the hand of God is the initiation of the Big Bang.)

But while there is probably a good explanation it doesn't follow that if we don't know the explanation then there must be no explanation. In other words, we need to exercise a little humility when it comes to understanding God's purpose.

Quote:
Since God has no lack of power, He could not make us less than perfectly in His image. And since there was no sin, there was nothing in us which needed to be perfected, eliminating the idea of evolution.
Well, this is the problem of theodicy and it doesn't go away by dismissing evolution.

(God could have created the universe and then planted the dinosaur bones and other evidence to mislead us about evolution.)
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  #221  
Old Apr 18, '12, 5:57 pm
tm30 tm30 is offline
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Default Re: Adam and Eve? That's just mythology, says Pell

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Switzler View Post
Yes, exactly! This is what I have been saying all along. We have plenty of other similar examples, as I have cited, so that this is not out of character of God.

(Note, btw, that cosmological evidence is that the earth was not instantly created. See the Big Bang. The place to look for the hand of God is the initiation of the Big Bang.)
Science admits that roughly 96% of the universe (dark energy and dark matter) cannot be observed. I have a problem with a theory which is built on only 4% of quantifiable evidence; so Big Bang is a non-starter for me.

Quote:
it doesn't follow that if we don't know the explanation then there must be no explanation. In other words, we need to exercise a little humility when it comes to understanding God's purpose.
We do know the explanation and we do know God's purpose. It's in Scripture. It's the whole point of Scripture.

Quote:
Well, this is the problem of theodicy and it doesn't go away by dismissing evolution.

(God could have created the universe and then planted the dinosaur bones and other evidence to mislead us about evolution.)
As I mentioned above, evolutionists need to square up the genetic ancestry of Christ Himself, since He carried the DNA of a human being who supposedly evolved from other life forms.
  #222  
Old Apr 18, '12, 6:15 pm
Dr. Bonnette Dr. Bonnette is offline
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Default Re: Adam and Eve? That's just mythology, says Pell

Given the topic of this thread, it was hardly unexpected that someone would post the widely popularized claim that Adam and Eve were "impossible" in light of recent findings in molecular biology, especially regarding the Human Genome Project. Many succumb to the modernistic tendency to "adjust" Church teaching to fit the latest findings of science -- thus scandalizing Catholics into thinking that fundamental revealed truths are not well founded.

The fact remains that a literal Adam and Eve are part of unchanging Catholic doctrine. Central to St. Paul's teaching is the fact that through one man, Adam, sin entered the world, and through the God-man, Jesus Christ, redemption came (Rom 5:12-21). The Catechism cites St. Paul, and speaks of Adam and Eve as of a single mating pair who "committed a personal sin" (CCC, 399-404).

We must be careful not to confuse the technical concept of average effective population size estimates, which vary from as high as 14,000 (Blum 2011) to as low as 2,000 (Tenesa 2007) depending on the methods used, with an actual "bottleneck" ( a temporarily reduced population) which may be much smaller. We must also realize that these calculations depend on many assumptions about mutation rate, recombination rate, and other factors, that are now known to vary widely, and that all depend on retrospective calculations about events in the far distant past, for which we have almost no information.

A famed study by Ayala (1995) led many to believe that a bottleneck of two was impossible at any time in the human lineage after the Homo/Pan (human/chimp) split some five million years ago. However, Ayala's claim of thirty-two ancient HLA-DRB1 lineages (prior to the Homo/Pan split) was wrong because of methodological errors. The number of lineages was subsequently adjusted by Bergström (1998) to just seven at the time of the split, with most of the genetic diversity appearing in the last 250,000 years.

Since the Class II region where HLA-DRB1 resides recombines only rarely, the region behaves as a unit during reproduction. It is inherited as a block, referred to as a haplotype. It is now known that there are only five basic haplotypes (Andersson 1998), and their particular identity is specified by which HLA-DRB1 allele they carry. Depending on the accuracy of the dating and tree drawing, there may have been between three and five haplotypes at the time of the Homo/Pan split. We share four of them with chimps. Since a single mating pair could pass on a maximum of four haplotypes, the most recent studies appear potentially compatible with a literal Adam and Eve. [I am indebted to molecular biologist Dr. Ann Gauger for the above line of reasoning pertinent to the genetic arguments.]

The point of all this is to show that the science which is so dogmatically employed to undermine Catholic doctrine regarding Adam and Eve is itself not definitive. Catholic doctrine trumps in any event, but even more so when the science itself is far from settled.

What is most important for purposes of this thread is the realization that, since the same God is Author of both human reason and authentic revelation, legitimate science will never contradict Catholic doctrine -- and Catholic doctrine firmly teaches a literal Adam and Eve.

In my book, Origin of the Human Species (Sapientia Press, second edition, 2003), I offer extensive analysis of the interface between evolutionary theory, philosophy, and theology -- including a most detailed explanation of how the existence of a literal Adam and Eve remains rationally credible, even to well educated Christians at the beginning of the twenty-first century.
  #223  
Old Apr 18, '12, 6:38 pm
Bubba Switzler Bubba Switzler is offline
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Default Re: Adam and Eve? That's just mythology, says Pell

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Originally Posted by tm30 View Post
We do know the explanation and we do know God's purpose. It's in Scripture. It's the whole point of Scripture.
I recommend Job, especially God's speech to Job at the end.
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  #224  
Old Apr 18, '12, 6:49 pm
Bubba Switzler Bubba Switzler is offline
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Default Re: Adam and Eve? That's just mythology, says Pell

First, I want to welcome you to this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Bonnette View Post
What is most important for purposes of this thread is the realization that, since the same God is Author of both human reason and authentic revelation, legitimate science will never contradict Catholic doctrine -- and Catholic doctrine firmly teaches a literal Adam and Eve.
One thing I hope that you will agree on is that if Adam and Eve are to be regarded as the literal first humans then that implies monogenism which is a falsifiable scientific prediction. It may well be that the science is not firm or resolved on this question but that doesn't mean it will always be so. Would you agree?

But while the poly/monogenism debate is certainly interesting, it is not the simplest reason for regarding the Adam and Eve as mythological rather than literal. Simply inserting Adam and Eve into the evolutionary scheme as the first fully human man and woman won't do the job.

What the theory of evolution tells us is that death and violence are inherent to biology and therefore preceeded the first humans. The first humans would have been born into a world of death and violence. It may be that they were the first to recognize the tragedy of death or sinful nature of violence, but they would not have been unaware of it.

Which brings us to the work of Professor Daryl P. Domning which I am discussing here: "Original Selfishness vs. Original Sin". I would be interesting to hear your take on him.
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  #225  
Old Apr 18, '12, 6:57 pm
grannymh grannymh is offline
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Default Re: Adam and Eve? That's just mythology, says Pell

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Switzler View Post
First, I want to welcome you to this thread.


One thing I hope that you will agree on is that if Adam and Eve are to be regarded as the literal first humans then that implies monogenism which is a falsifiable scientific prediction. It may well be that the science is not firm or resolved on this question but that doesn't mean it will always be so. Would you agree?

But while the poly/monogenism debate is certainly interesting, it is not the simplest reason for regarding the Adam and Eve as mythological rather than literal. Simply inserting Adam and Eve into the evolutionary scheme as the first fully human man and woman won't do the job.

What the theory of evolution tells us is that death and violence are inherent to biology and therefore preceeded the first humans. The first humans would have been born into a world of death and violence. It may be that they were the first to recognize the tragedy of death or sinful nature of violence, but they would not have been unaware of it.

Which brings us to the work of Professor Daryl P. Domning which I am discussing here: "Original Selfishness vs. Original Sin". I would be interesting to hear your take on him.

Please explain.

What exactly is this falsifiable scientific prediction for monogenism?
Simply saying that there are mountains of evidence doesn't count. Mountains of evidence could be ant hills of unverifiable assumptions. In other words, in scientific circles, the evidence has to warrant the conclusion.
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