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  #1  
Old Apr 27, '12, 6:43 pm
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PeterJohn PeterJohn is offline
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Default Fundamentalist's and grace?!?

I'm a catholic trying to strengthen my faith as well as well as my ability to defend it, so this question is not for me so much as my friend. We often have conversations about salvation history and I gently show him the truths behind his misconceptions about Catholisism. He's a fundamentalist/baptist and he said to me, "I have a hard time understanding grace as Catholics do" and I realized I need some good ways to describe to him where grace is in the bible that portrays it in the catholic light.
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  #2  
Old Apr 27, '12, 7:52 pm
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Default Re: Fundamentalist's and grace?!?

Look at the parable in Matthew about the master giving his servants talents (graces) and then those who multiply their talents get to share in their masters happiness.
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  #3  
Old Apr 28, '12, 9:19 am
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Default Re: Fundamentalist's and grace?!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterJohn View Post
I'm a catholic trying to strengthen my faith as well as well as my ability to defend it, so this question is not for me so much as my friend. We often have conversations about salvation history and I gently show him the truths behind his misconceptions about Catholisism. He's a fundamentalist/baptist and he said to me, "I have a hard time understanding grace as Catholics do" and I realized I need some good ways to describe to him where grace is in the bible that portrays it in the catholic light.
I’m guessing your friend is speaking of the grace which justifies us (sanctifying grace). It’s important to know that the Church speaks of 2 types or classifications of grace – habitual grace (sanctifying grace) and actual grace/s.
CCC 2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God's call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God's interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6Z.HTM
If you haven’t already read it, it would be good to read the whole section in the Catechism titled “Grace and Justification”; it’s not that long. (CCC 1987 – 2016) The section starts here: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6Y.HTM
Concerning actual graces, I don’t think there’s much disagreement between Catholics and Protestants. We do of course disagree on what constitutes the grace of justification/regeneration/sanctification. So will provide some Scripture passages that apply to sanctifying grace.


It's going to get too long for one post, so I'll put the Scripture in the next post.

In reading the passages, make special note where they speak about how something actually takes place IN us -- eg. "partake of"; "abides in him", "made us alive"...
Baptists tend to think the grace of salvation is something external to us -- that is, that no real change takes place within our soul. I think "born again" (or "born anew") to them means just being granted salvation by God's decision; they would not understand it as an infusion of supernatural life into our soul -- a true rebirth/regeneration.

(cont. on next post)
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  #4  
Old Apr 28, '12, 9:21 am
Nita Nita is offline
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Default Re: Fundamentalist's and grace?!?

(cont.)

THE ESSENCE OF SANCTIFYING GRACE: It is a participation in the divine nature – something we truly share in. It’s a gift of supernatural life of God infused into our souls.
2 Peter 1:3-4 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature.

1 John 3:9 No one born of God commits sin; for God’s nature abides in him

Ephesians 4:18 they are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God.
EFFECTS OF THIS GRACE ON OUR SOUL:
John 3:3 Truly, truly I say to you, unless one is born anew, …
(rebirth; regeneration)
Romans 6:22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.
(cleanses us from sin; sanctification)

Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.
(gift of Holy Spirit; regeneration, renewal, justification)

1 Cor 6:11 But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God
(cleansed, sanctified, justified)

Ephesians 4:24 and put on the new nature, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness
(righteousness and holiness)
SOURCE OF SUPERNATURAL/SPIRITUAL LIFE:
Romans 8:10 But if Christ is in you, although your bodies are dead because of sin, your spirits are alive because of righteousness

Ephesians 2:1,4-5 And you He made alive when you were dead… But God…even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ.

Colossians 2:10 …and you have come to fullness of life in Him

1 Peter 3:7 …since you are joint heirs of the grace of life,…
SOURCE OF POWER/STRENGTH IN OUR SOUL:
John 1:12 …He gave power to become children of God.

Ephesians 3:16 that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with might through his Spirit in the inner man,

Hebrews 13:9 … for it is well that the heart be strengthened by grace, …
IT IS THE GRACE THAT SAVES US:
Romans 3:24 they are justified by His grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus,

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is a gift of God.

Titus 3:5-7 he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.
I'm sure there are many more. Hopefully others will add to the above list.
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  #5  
Old Apr 28, '12, 11:10 am
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Default Re: Fundamentalist's and grace?!?

www.scripturecatholic.com is a great website for Scriptural support and Early Church Father’s support for Catholic doctrines. You’ll see the various topics on the left of the screen. In addition to the “Justification” link given below, you might also like to check out the “Baptism” and “Salvation” links.



http://www.scripturecatholic.com/justification.html

Scroll down to::

III. Justification = Inner Change of Person (Infusion); Not Just a Declaration by God (Imputation)
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Old May 4, '12, 9:00 am
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Default Re: Fundamentalist's and grace?!?

Thank you very much.
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Old May 4, '12, 12:36 pm
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Default Re: Fundamentalist's and grace?!?

You're welcome.

One of the quotes I like is from St. Paul:
1 Cor 6:11 But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God

It captures so well our Catholic teaching of what takes place in Baptism. That is, that when we are baptized/washed we are not just cleansed of sin and justified, but we are also truly "sanctified". Some denominations deny that we are sanctified at the time of Baptism. They seem to understand sanctification as something that only takes place later on - unconnected to being justified. Some even seem to understand sanctification as optional - not a state necessary in us for our salvation.

And of course, if you're speaking to a Baptist, you know they see Baptism only symbolically. They do not recognize it as the sacramental instrument through which God communicates His grace of justification and sanctification. If I'm not mistaken, they believe they are justified when they acknowledge Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Baptism would follow at some later date. Not sure if Baptism is even required for salvation (in ordinary circumstances) in their teaching. Do you know if it is?
(Would really seem ironic if it isn't - considering their name "Baptist".)

Last edited by Nita; May 4, '12 at 12:46 pm.
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Old May 4, '12, 2:30 pm
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Default Re: Fundamentalist's and grace?!?

I would recommend the following from Catholic Answers:

http://www.catholic.com/quickquestio...ve-special-gra

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/grace...d-what-it-does
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  #9  
Old May 4, '12, 5:41 pm
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Default Re: Fundamentalist's and grace?!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterJohn View Post
I'm a catholic trying to strengthen my faith as well as well as my ability to defend it, so this question is not for me so much as my friend. We often have conversations about salvation history and I gently show him the truths behind his misconceptions about Catholisism. He's a fundamentalist/baptist and he said to me, "I have a hard time understanding grace as Catholics do" and I realized I need some good ways to describe to him where grace is in the bible that portrays it in the catholic light.
A commonly held belief of Protestants, speaking in general terms, is that via grace we're offered forgiveness and we don't need to become righteous; Christs' righteousness is imputed to us instead, so long as we believe in Him and what He did for us. Catholics OTOH, believe that via grace we're not only forgiven, but also empowered to 'go, and sin no more', to truly become righteous, as Christ is, with our cooperation being a necessary part in this process of justification.
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  #10  
Old May 4, '12, 7:11 pm
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Default Re: Fundamentalist's and grace?!?

This is one of my favorite explanations of grace. Francois-Xavier Durrwell writes, “[The first Christian communities] defined…the grace of the Spirit as a call….All the action of the Spirit in the faithful is in the form of a call: “You were called into one and the same hope” (cf. Eph. 4:4), to freedom (cf. Gal. 5:13), to peace (cf. 1 Cor. 7:15; Col. 3:15); by this call they are journeying towards the Kingdom and glory (cf. 1 Th. 2:12). St Paul combines the two notions of call and grace: (The one) “who called me through his grace” (Gal. 1:6, 15)….The grace of the Spirit is creative, it creates by attraction….Grace is not simply a quality that enhances man. It is energy calling and creating by attraction. It attracts by opening a person to union with the Son (cf. 1 Cor. 1:9) who is the goal of all the activity of the Spirit [Francois-Xavier Durrwell, Holy Spirit of God (Servant Books, Cinncinati, OH, 2006), 102-103].”

Another way to look at grace is this: at Pentecost, the fire that was on the tongues is grace. It is the fire of the Holy Spirit. The fire you see on images of the Sacred Heart of Jesus is the Holy Spirit. It is a fire to express fruitfully; it is a fire for union with the the Father through union with the Son. That fire IS grace.
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Old May 5, '12, 9:01 am
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PeterJohn PeterJohn is offline
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Default Re: Fundamentalist's and grace?!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nita View Post
You're welcome.

One of the quotes I like is from St. Paul:
1 Cor 6:11 But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God

It captures so well our Catholic teaching of what takes place in Baptism. That is, that when we are baptized/washed we are not just cleansed of sin and justified, but we are also truly "sanctified". Some denominations deny that we are sanctified at the time of Baptism. They seem to understand sanctification as something that only takes place later on - unconnected to being justified. Some even seem to understand sanctification as optional - not a state necessary in us for our salvation.

And of course, if you're speaking to a Baptist, you know they see Baptism only symbolically. They do not recognize it as the sacramental instrument through which God communicates His grace of justification and sanctification. If I'm not mistaken, they believe they are justified when they acknowledge Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Baptism would follow at some later date. Not sure if Baptism is even required for salvation (in ordinary circumstances) in their teaching. Do you know if it is?
(Would really seem ironic if it isn't - considering their name "Baptist".)
After describing to him what a sacrament is, and outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace, he told me that baptism is an outward sign, instituted by Christ to show everyone you are Christian.
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Old May 5, '12, 9:02 am
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Default Re: Fundamentalist's and grace?!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve9191 View Post
This is one of my favorite explanations of grace. Francois-Xavier Durrwell writes, “[The first Christian communities] defined…the grace of the Spirit as a call….All the action of the Spirit in the faithful is in the form of a call: “You were called into one and the same hope” (cf. Eph. 4:4), to freedom (cf. Gal. 5:13), to peace (cf. 1 Cor. 7:15; Col. 3:15); by this call they are journeying towards the Kingdom and glory (cf. 1 Th. 2:12). St Paul combines the two notions of call and grace: (The one) “who called me through his grace” (Gal. 1:6, 15)….The grace of the Spirit is creative, it creates by attraction….Grace is not simply a quality that enhances man. It is energy calling and creating by attraction. It attracts by opening a person to union with the Son (cf. 1 Cor. 1:9) who is the goal of all the activity of the Spirit [Francois-Xavier Durrwell, Holy Spirit of God (Servant Books, Cinncinati, OH, 2006), 102-103].”

Another way to look at grace is this: at Pentecost, the fire that was on the tongues is grace. It is the fire of the Holy Spirit. The fire you see on images of the Sacred Heart of Jesus is the Holy Spirit. It is a fire to express fruitfully; it is a fire for union with the the Father through union with the Son. That fire IS grace.
I like that a lot!
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Old May 7, '12, 8:52 am
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Default Re: Fundamentalist's and grace?!?

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Originally Posted by fhansen View Post
A commonly held belief of Protestants, speaking in general terms, is that via grace we're offered forgiveness and we don't need to become righteous; Christs' righteousness is imputed to us instead, so long as we believe in Him and what He did for us. Catholics OTOH, believe that via grace we're not only forgiven, but also empowered to 'go, and sin no more', to truly become righteous, as Christ is, with our cooperation being a necessary part in this process of justification.
From this link:
[T]he doctrine of Sola Fide is patently absurd on the face of it since the act of believing is, in and of itself, a work. Simple logic says so, but Scripture itself also says so. John 6:27-29, “‘Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you’...Then they said to Him, ‘What must we do, to be doing the works of God?’ Jesus answered them, ‘This is the work of God, that you believe in Him Whom He has sent.’”

Jesus tells His listeners that they should “labor” for the food which endures to eternal life. If Sola Fide is true, why is He telling them to labor for anything in regard to eternal life? Then, when they ask what they must “do” to be doing the works of God, what does Jesus say? He says that believing in Him is the work of God that they must do. Believing is a work, according to Jesus Christ.

Some will say, “Wait a minute, John, Jesus says that believing is a work of God, not a work of man.” Leaving aside for a moment the question of whose work it is, it needs to be pointed out that the Word of God very clearly states that the act of believing is a work. Which is the point I’ve been making. Now, once we’ve made the point, using the Bible, that believing is indeed a work, then the question becomes, whose work is it? Is it a work of God, a work of man, or a work of God and man?

It is indeed a work of God, but, as the context of John 6:27-29 clearly shows, it is a work that God does through man and with man’s cooperation. Jesus tells the people to labor for the food that endures to eternal life. The people obviously want to follow Jesus’ instructions, so they ask him what it is they have to do. Did Jesus say, “Why do you ask what work you can do? Do you not know that you can do no work to receive the food which endures to eternal life?” No! That would be a pretty ridiculous thing for Him to say right after He told them they needed to “labor” for that very food.
...
Scripture tells us that faith is completed by works. Or, again, as the KJV states it, faith is “made perfect” by works. If faith alone is necessary, then how can faith be completed, or perfected, by works? Wouldn’t we need a complete faith, a perfect faith, rather than an incomplete or imperfect faith to be saved? And do you see how verse 21 says Abraham was justified by works and verse 23 says “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness?” He believed and he did. Verse 21 is not in opposition to verse 23, it complements it. Faith and works.
...
I absolutely love James 2:26. This is a verse that every Catholic ought to have memorized: “For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.” This is a nifty little analogy that I love pointing out to anyone who says that faith without works really isn’t faith.

The analogy is that works are to faith, as the spirit is to the body. Just as a body without a spirit is a dead body, so faith without works is a dead faith. I always ask the question, “Are the bodies down at the morgue real bodies or not?” Yes, they are real bodies, but they are real dead bodies. Just so faith without works is indeed real faith, but it is real dead faith. This verse makes abundantly clear, as both body and spirit are necessary for physical life, then, for the analogy to hold, both faith and works are necessary for spiritual life. Just as the body alone does not give physical life, so faith alone does not give spiritual life.
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Old May 7, '12, 1:05 pm
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Default Re: Fundamentalist's and grace?!?

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Originally Posted by PeterJohn View Post
After describing to him what a sacrament is, and outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace, he told me that baptism is an outward sign, instituted by Christ to show everyone you are Christian.
I would've asked him where Scripture says the purpose of Baptism is to show everyone you are Christian.
(As a Baptist I think he holds all beliefs have to be stated in Scripture.)

I did a word search on "baptism" and "baptize" and was unable to find any passage that said (or even suggested) the purpose of Baptism was to show others we are Christian.
I would really be interested to know which passages he feels do support his position -- and then how he synthesizes/reconciles them with other Baptism passages such as the following ones.


1 Peter 3:21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,


Acts 22:16 & And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized,& and wash away your sins,


Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
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