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  #76  
Old Apr 25, '12, 9:20 am
AngryAtheist8 AngryAtheist8 is offline
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Default Re: If Feminist Christians decide that it’s okay to call the Holy Spirit “Sophia” and use feminine pronouns, then by that same logic….

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Originally Posted by Cristiano View Post
Tshi is such poor logic and trying to establish cause and effect in such a manner makes me wonder if you are being honest or just trying to push an agenda. If I were to use your logic I cold say that women have been really stupid until now when some of them started to have functional brains and to develop scientific theories. I know that this last statement that I have written is blatantly false.
Do you have an actual argument to dispute my theory or just vague insults?
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  #77  
Old Apr 25, '12, 9:21 am
Cristiano Cristiano is offline
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Default Re: (Edited Title) Feminist Christians & logic….

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Then what would you call squabbles over things like the Old and New Mass?
You Catholics definitely appear to have factions to outsiders like me.
The teaching of the Church is specific about the forms of the Mass. I think that if you were to be informed about the so called squabbles you would see that independently of personal preferences the belief in either forms is unique.

What I see is that you are still avoiding the way feminist address pornography, that is a fundamental issue for the feminist movement and you are not able to tell me if a feminist should be in favor or against pornography. Should women be free to choose to be treated like objects, is so should males be free to treat women like objects?
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  #78  
Old Apr 25, '12, 9:22 am
Cristiano Cristiano is offline
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Default Re: If Feminist Christians decide that it’s okay to call the Holy Spirit “Sophia” and use feminine pronouns, then by that same logic….

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Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8 View Post
Do you have an actual argument to dispute my theory or just vague insults?
If you were to read the second statement you would understand the argument.
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  #79  
Old Apr 25, '12, 9:36 am
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triumphguy triumphguy is offline
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Default Re: (Edited Title) Feminist Christians & logic….

Ἁγία Σοφία hagia sophia, Holy Wisdom in some Roman Catholic/Orthodox thought is more properly attributed to the Logos - the Word, Christ Himself.

The largest Church for a thousand years, the hagia sophia in Constantinople was dedicated to λόγος (Logos) the Word.

John 1:1 εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
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  #80  
Old Apr 25, '12, 10:07 am
AngryAtheist8 AngryAtheist8 is offline
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Default Re: (Edited Title) Feminist Christians & logic….

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Originally Posted by Cristiano View Post
The teaching of the Church is specific about the forms of the Mass. I think that if you were to be informed about the so called squabbles you would see that independently of personal preferences the belief in either forms is unique.

What I see is that you are still avoiding the way feminist address pornography, that is a fundamental issue for the feminist movement and you are not able to tell me if a feminist should be in favor or against pornography. Should women be free to choose to be treated like objects, is so should males be free to treat women like objects?
Feminists can't agree on the subject
Although some feel that women should be able to treat men as sex objects (the way that men have traditionally treated women) to make things more fair.
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  #81  
Old Apr 25, '12, 10:10 am
AngryAtheist8 AngryAtheist8 is offline
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Default Re: If Feminist Christians decide that it’s okay to call the Holy Spirit “Sophia” and use feminine pronouns, then by that same logic….

Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8
Do you have an actual argument to dispute my theory or just vague insults?


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Originally Posted by Cristiano View Post
If you were to read the second statement you would understand the argument.
But its not an argument.
Its just an outrageous statement that you admit that you don't believe in.
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  #82  
Old Apr 25, '12, 12:28 pm
Cristiano Cristiano is offline
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Default Re: If Feminist Christians decide that it’s okay to call the Holy Spirit “Sophia” and use feminine pronouns, then by that same logic….

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8 View Post
Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8
Do you have an actual argument to dispute my theory or just vague insults?




But its not an argument.
Its just an outrageous statement that you admit that you don't believe in.
I was addressing your statement saying that it is a "post hoc, ergo propter hoc" fallacy and my other example was to indicate a similar example to show the breakdown in the logic. Let me try to give you another example of the point that I was trying to make.

I am at home I grind the coffee, pour it in the coffee filter and put it in the coffee maker, I than add water to the coffee maker and I push the start button. After that I start walking out of the room and suddenly the coffee starts percolating in the decanter. Does that mean that the coffee is finally free to come out because my presence has been removed?

This is the same think of what happened with women during the centuries, things were really bad before Christianity developed and the more Christianity developed the more society changed the basic disposition toward women. Increased recognition of the dignity of women, like a lot of other developments happened over the centuries and they were driven by Christianity becoming more and more embedded in society.
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  #83  
Old Apr 26, '12, 11:32 pm
jcrichton jcrichton is offline
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Default Re: If Feminist Christians decide that it’s okay to call the Holy Spirit “Sophia” and use feminine pronouns, then by that same logic….

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8 View Post
Wait...

Are you saying that women who act tough and assertive automatically have metaphorical male organs (i.e. are acting like a guy)?

That's just...

To be honest, I have trouble even taking that comment seriously.
...apparently, you are not reading my posts and are not aware of the language being used in movies and shows where females that are portrayed as strong/leader/capable must subscribe to being a "b" (female dog in heat) or carrying a pair of brass "bs" (male genetalia) or wearing/being able to fill a strap (male athletic support); conversely, whenever a person is spoken of as weak/coward these great minds have decided to express it in something to the effect of "don't be such a "p" (female genetalia)--interestingly enough both examples are written so that female characters either express it of themselves or some weak/coward female/male character... it seems that hollowood believes that man is better than woman (as a woman cannot be "the woman" but "the man") and that a woman can only achieve equality if she is a "mr." or "sir" or "the man" or has a pair of "bs."

Maran atha!

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  #84  
Old Apr 26, '12, 11:42 pm
jcrichton jcrichton is offline
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Default Re: If Feminist Christians decide that it’s okay to call the Holy Spirit “Sophia” and use feminine pronouns, then by that same logic….

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8 View Post
Some of the language in the O.T. indicates that God had an almost spousal relationship with Israel.
If so, God could be likened to an abusive husband who smacked his wife around whenever he thought that she was mouthing off.
...yes... and some see spaceships in some of the Biblical text... the human mind is quite flexible and creative...

...how it actually goes is something like this: Yahweh God spouse of Israel who from time to time prostitutes herself with pagans and their gods... after years of rejection God allows his wife to openly defy Him but removes His Protection from her so that she can experience both her treachery and the results of bedding the power-hungry immoral lords that she courted.

...but it is clear that most people would love to have the right to do as they please while God must take it and "love them as they are."

Maran atha!

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  #85  
Old Apr 27, '12, 12:21 am
jcrichton jcrichton is offline
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Default Re: If Feminist Christians decide that it’s okay to call the Holy Spirit “Sophia” and use feminine pronouns, then by that same logic….

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8 View Post
The history of Christendom (the countries historically dominated by Christianity) disagrees with you.

Women have only gained full legal rights and protections (on par with men) within the last hundred years or so. Which its worth noting, is also the period when Christianity's influence began to serious decline (indicating that Christianity is not the primary factor responsible for this turn of events).
I think that you are missing the whole of human history till just the turn of the century... it was considered wrong for a female to even learn to read... nuns had their convents and homes burnt to the ground because they dare teach their novices to read... societies where there's little Church influence still have child labor, a caste system where females are less then dirt, and the intellectual modern feminists that live abroad and are enjoying legal rights don't even speak against the horrendous genecide against the female sex that is taking place world-wide:

Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_Middle_Ages
With the establishment of Christian monasticism, other roles within the Church became available to women. From the 5th century onward, Christian convents provided opportunities for some women to escape the path of marriage and child-rearing, acquire literacy and learning, and play a more active religious role.
...and

Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_r..._Organizations
The ancient world did not possess the concept of universal human rights.[5] Ancient societies had "elaborate systems of duties... conceptions of justice, political legitimacy, and human flourishing that sought to realize human dignity, flourishing, or well-being entirely independent of human rights".[6] The modern concept of human rights developed during the early Modern period, alongside the European secularization of Judeo-Christian ethics.[7]
Maran atha!

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  #86  
Old Apr 27, '12, 12:55 am
jcrichton jcrichton is offline
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Default Re: (Edited Title) Feminist Christians & logic….

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Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8 View Post
To be honest I think Christianity and Islam have historically looked down on women for the most part.

But while Christianity did it in somewhat patronizing and condescending way, Islam is much more brutal, and does a very poor job concealing the fact that it is a religion made by men for the benefit of men.

In practice this means that in Christian Europe men (who tend to be significantly more violent) were much more likely be executed than women.
But in Muslim lands they didn't (and still don't) need much reason to imprison, mutilate, or murder women.

I think this is because women were regarded in Christendom as being like children (or pets). Beloved little creatures that had to be protected from the outside world because they weren't strong, smart, or competent enough to do it themselves.
But the Muslims don't bother protecting their women (and in fact often abuse them instead), because they see women more like chattel/commodities.

I realize that not all Christians or Muslims are (or were) like this, but I am making generalizations to speak of the overall pattern.
...ever heard the expression "seeing things through rose-colored glasses?"

I think I can honestly say that it applies to you... women have suffered worse during any secular period than a Christian period; the fact that the Church does not ordain women as Priests is often the cause for such erroneous belief as the one you've put forth. When compare to any nation where secularism or non-Christian principles have flourished females have had very little power/rights that translates to true protection of the female of the species...

It has been the possitive influence of the Catholic Church that has promoted the fight for global human rights... even today the only claim that feminism has on liberating females is empowering them to and amoral lifestyle and the murder their children in their womb under the euphemism of "woman health;" interestingly enough, aborition does not only kill the baby but it causes damage (some times irreparable) to the mother who aborts {http://www.cirtl.org/syndrome.htm} (ditto the use of contraceptive agents--these, the chemical ones, are polluting and saturating the water basins to such an extent that fish-life is being affected {http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/...akes_you_sick/})... in all, secular values do not always translate to better treatment of the female species (oh and check with China, India, and some other nations such as Mexico where females exist only to please men as they can be eradicated, mostly through abortion, with very little social and criminal consequence).

Maran atha!

Angel
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  #87  
Old Apr 27, '12, 3:19 pm
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bcuster bcuster is offline
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Default Re: (Edited Title) Feminist Christians & logic….

It helps me to separate feminine/masculine characteristics from human sexual differences. God created humans male and female. He gifted men and women each with certain characteristics that are stonger in men than women and vise versa. In our development of language humans give certain words "gender." Does this mean that the objects or ideas themselves are male or female. No. So whether you call the Holy Spirit "Ruah" or "Sophia" or Sancte Spiritus... the Holy Spirit is not feminine in the sense of being a woman. Humans are made in God's image not the other way around.

As for feminism, if it means making sure that the dignity of women is respected, I see a point in it. Most of the feminism I see inside and outside the Church is divisive, which is the opposite of the Unity that exists within the Holy Trinity. We should not be trying to get a higher position by tearing someone else down. We are in this together, male and female, for our salvation and the salvation of others.
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  #88  
Old Apr 27, '12, 10:10 pm
jcrichton jcrichton is offline
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Default Re: (Edited Title) Feminist Christians & logic….

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It helps me to separate feminine/masculine characteristics from human sexual differences. God created humans male and female. He gifted men and women each with certain characteristics that are stonger in men than women and vise versa. In our development of language humans give certain words "gender." Does this mean that the objects or ideas themselves are male or female. No. So whether you call the Holy Spirit "Ruah" or "Sophia" or Sancte Spiritus... the Holy Spirit is not feminine in the sense of being a woman. Humans are made in God's image not the other way around.

As for feminism, if it means making sure that the dignity of women is respected, I see a point in it. Most of the feminism I see inside and outside the Church is divisive, which is the opposite of the Unity that exists within the Holy Trinity. We should not be trying to get a higher position by tearing someone else down. We are in this together, male and female, for our salvation and the salvation of others.
...sadly, as the new speak in entertainment, people are being conditioned to not only seek "drama" but to create it and demand it... long gone are the days of reason... when male and female were counterparts... we are in a world the seeks to pit man against woman (conversely: parents against children and siblings against each other) in order to create that "drama."

...what is really worse is that Christians have been buying into this ideology and we don't even recognize the error as we assimilate all things "modern" or "politically correct" when we exchange our Yahweh centered life (theocentrism) for the mundane.

Maran atha!

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  #89  
Old Apr 29, '12, 10:14 am
steve53 steve53 is offline
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Default Re: (Edited Title) Feminist Christians & logic….

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Originally Posted by jcrichton View Post
...sadly, as the new speak in entertainment, people are being conditioned to not only seek "drama" but to create it and demand it... long gone are the days of reason... when male and female were counterparts... we are in a world the seeks to pit man against woman (conversely: parents against children and siblings against each other) in order to create that "drama."

...what is really worse is that Christians have been buying into this ideology and we don't even recognize the error as we assimilate all things "modern" or "politically correct" when we exchange our Yahweh centered life (theocentrism) for the mundane.

Maran atha!

Angel
Wise words.

The curious thing about the feminist movement is that they "defy" men, but seek their approbation.
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  #90  
Old Apr 29, '12, 11:57 pm
jcrichton jcrichton is offline
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Default Re: (Edited Title) Feminist Christians & logic….

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Wise words.

The curious thing about the feminist movement is that they "defy" men, but seek their approbation.
...and submit to their rule... if it furthers their agenda (ie: a trans/homosexual teaching women how to be more seductive and beautiful rather than an actual woman [pageant and modeling industries])!

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