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  #76  
Old Apr 30, '12, 1:05 am
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Cavaradossi Cavaradossi is offline
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Default Re: Why Evangelicals are returning

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Originally Posted by Jim Dandy View Post
I will post this again.

http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute...remarriage.htm

QUOTE: Orthodox canon law can permit a second and even a third marriage “in economia”, but strictly forbids a fourth . . . A second or third marriage will always be a deviation from the “ideal and unique marriage”, but often a fresh opportunity to correct a mistake”.END QUOTE (emphasis mine)

Matthew 5:31-32 NAB "... whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery."

Mark 10:11 - "So he [Jesus] said to them, 'Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her." 12 "And if a woman divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery" Orthodox Study Bible.

Luke 16:18 RSV - "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery."

1 Cor 7:39 RSV - "A wife is bound to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is free to be married to whomever she wishes, only in the Lord."

Some marriages are "not in the Lord." In such cases, the Catholic Church, following a thorough investigation, can grant a declaration of nullity, which means that a valid, sacramental marriage never existed.

An annulment is not a "divorce" -- not in civil law nor in ecclesiastical law. In the case of a civil annulment, the State finds that the requirements for a marriage under State law were not met and therefore no marriage existed; in the case of an ecclesiastical annulment, the Church finds that the requirements for a "marriage in the Lord" were not met, therefore there was no marriage in the 'eyes' of God and a dissolution can be granted. .A valid, sacramental marriage -- within the Catholic Church or without -- cannot be dissolved. "So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate" Matthew 19:6 Orthodox Study Bible.

But, nevertheless, the Orthodox Churches permits two divorces and three marriages. But not a fourth! And, again in opposition to Scripture, the Orthodox hold that death does not end marriage.
Except that the Orthodox do hold that death ends marriage as it exists now. That is because sacraments are a foretaste of what is to come. Marriage is the foretaste of the relationship of the body of Christ to Christ, and so it will not be abolished but fulfilled in the age to come. What is meant when you see the idea that marriage is eternal is simply the idea that the love of a married couple does not end after death, but will continue on (indeed, this is believed to be true of all of our loving relationships). It does not entail the continued existence of an exclusive emotional and sexual relationship (for we shall be as the angels, we are told). For the sake of charity, clarity, and honesty, perhaps it would be better if you stuck to expounding upon the teachings of your church instead of trying to explain and attack the teachings of a church you show little familiarity with.
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But God, he says, is simple, and whatever attribute of Him you have reckoned as knowable is of His essence. But the absurdities involved in this sophism are innumerable. When all these high attributes have been enumerated, are they all names of one essence? St. Basil Letter 234
  #77  
Old Apr 30, '12, 1:11 am
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Marybeloved Marybeloved is offline
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Default Re: Why Evangelicals are returning

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavaradossi View Post
Except that the Orthodox do hold that death ends marriage as it exists now. That is because sacraments are a foretaste of what is to come. Marriage is the foretaste of the relationship of the body of Christ to Christ, and so it will not be abolished but fulfilled in the age to come. What is meant when you see the idea that marriage is eternal is simply the idea that the love of a married couple does not end after death, but will continue on (indeed, this is believed to be true of all of our loving relationships), it does not entail the continued existence of an exclusive sexual relationship (for we shall be as the angels, we are told). For the sake of honesty, perhaps it would be better if you stuck to expounding upon the teachings of your church instead of trying to smear and misrepresent the teachings of Orthodoxy.
Cavaradossi, as I noted earlier about the Orthodox site that Coptic linked to earlier, what it described as "divorce" really sounds to me like what Catholics understand as "annulment"- Namely that the Church recognizes that for one reason or another, there was no grace, or that the couples did not, for one reason or another, receive the grace. Could it possibly be the case that what you guys call "divorce" is not really what Catholics understand by the word "divorce"?
  #78  
Old Apr 30, '12, 1:25 am
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Cavaradossi Cavaradossi is offline
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Default Re: Why Evangelicals are returning

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Originally Posted by Marybeloved View Post
Cavaradossi, as I noted earlier about the Orthodox site that Coptic linked to earlier, what it described as "divorce" really sounds to me like what Catholics understand as "annulment"- Namely that the Church recognizes that there was no grace, or the couples did not, for one reason or another, receive the grace. Could it possibly be the case that what you guys call "divorce" is not what Catholics understand by the word "divorce"?
I'm really not sure, as I haven't studied the sacramental view of divorce in Orthodoxy much (an unpleasant subject). I think the original understanding really was that a marriage could only be dissolved for adultery, in line with the words of Christ (St. Basil the Great even writes that custom dictates that only a man can initiate a divorce, even though Christ's words apply equally to both genders; this custom has changed, as one might imagine, so women too can initiate divorce for adultery). Over time, the allowable reasons have been expanded by economy to include other grave matters like attempted murder of a spouse, imprisonment, etc.. The understanding still is that these other grave matters are only allowed by economy, and so they can vary from bishop to bishop, as is the prerogative of a bishop. This understanding (the dissolution of marital bonds), of course is exactly how a Catholic would understand "divorce", not annulment.

That quote that you are asking about is the first time I've read something like that from an Orthodox source, so it might be a relatively novel understanding. I'm not sure.
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But God, he says, is simple, and whatever attribute of Him you have reckoned as knowable is of His essence. But the absurdities involved in this sophism are innumerable. When all these high attributes have been enumerated, are they all names of one essence? St. Basil Letter 234
  #79  
Old Apr 30, '12, 6:15 am
Jim Dandy Jim Dandy is offline
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Default Re: Why Evangelicals are returning

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marybeloved View Post
Cavaradossi, as I noted earlier about the Orthodox site that Coptic linked to earlier, what it described as "divorce" really sounds to me like what Catholics understand as "annulment"- Namely that the Church recognizes that for one reason or another, there was no grace, or that the couples did not, for one reason or another, receive the grace. Could it possibly be the case that what you guys call "divorce" is not really what Catholics understand by the word "divorce"?
It is not divorce but remarriage when a previous valid, sacramental marriage still exists that is problematic. What God has joined together . . .
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And this one thing is certain . . . the Christianity of history is not Protestantism. If there ever were a safe truth, it is this . . . To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant. ~ Blessed John Henry Newman, former Anglican clergyman, Catholic convert, and soon-to-be saint
  #80  
Old Apr 30, '12, 6:36 am
Jim Dandy Jim Dandy is offline
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Default Re: Why Evangelicals are returning

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavaradossi View Post
Except that the Orthodox do hold that death ends marriage as it exists now. That is because sacraments are a foretaste of what is to come. Marriage is the foretaste of the relationship of the body of Christ to Christ, and so it will not be abolished but fulfilled in the age to come. What is meant when you see the idea that marriage is eternal is simply the idea that the love of a married couple does not end after death, but will continue on (indeed, this is believed to be true of all of our loving relationships). It does not entail the continued existence of an exclusive emotional and sexual relationship (for we shall be as the angels, we are told). For the sake of charity, clarity, and honesty, perhaps it would be better if you stuck to expounding upon the teachings of your church instead of trying to explain and attack the teachings of a church you show little familiarity with.
I regret my error. Sorry. I made an incorrect assumption by taking the words at face value. But I have to ask: which marriage? Or will the love of all three Orthodox marriages (if they occur) endure in the afterlife?

I regret also that you feel I am attacking Orthodoxy. I'm merely stating the reasons why I (born and raised Protestant) made the choice to became Catholic and not Orthodox, and some Protestants (Evangelicals) have made the choice to become Orthodox and not Catholic -- because of the possibility of remarriage and permission to contracept with the blessing of the Orthodox Churches.

Peace be with you.
__________________
And this one thing is certain . . . the Christianity of history is not Protestantism. If there ever were a safe truth, it is this . . . To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant. ~ Blessed John Henry Newman, former Anglican clergyman, Catholic convert, and soon-to-be saint
  #81  
Old Apr 30, '12, 7:01 am
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GaryTaylor GaryTaylor is online now
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Default Re: Why Evangelicals are returning

Well religious freedom and Obamacare has certainly placed it all under the spotlight once again. Seems to me Protestants see a need for change here in the Evangelical realm, perhaps not as much as mainline.

Lot if ignorance still with this also. Also people just don't clearly think this through on a thought by throught basis.

Unfortunate is takes such extremes for some to understand the severity of todays problems.
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"Eternal Father, I offer Thee the Most Precious Blood of Thy Divine Son, Jesus, in union with the Masses said throughout the world today, for all the Holy Souls in Purgatory, for sinners everywhere, for sinners in the universal church, those in my own home and within my family. Amen." St. Gertrude
  #82  
Old Apr 30, '12, 8:18 am
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Cavaradossi Cavaradossi is offline
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Default Re: Why Evangelicals are returning

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Originally Posted by Jim Dandy View Post
I regret my error. Sorry. I made an incorrect assumption by taking the words at face value. But I have to ask: which marriage? Or will the love of all three Orthodox marriages (if they occur) endure in the afterlife?

I regret also that you feel I am attacking Orthodoxy. I'm merely stating the reasons why I (born and raised Protestant) made the choice to became Catholic and not Orthodox, and some Protestants (Evangelicals) have made the choice to become Orthodox and not Catholic -- because of the possibility of remarriage and permission to contracept with the blessing of the Orthodox Churches.

Peace be with you.
Imagine that a person is widowed and remarries, does her love for her first husband die? Surely what Jesus meant in Matthew 22 wasn't that our relationships are completely severed in the age to come, but that the marital relationship will no longer exist because we will come to love each other in a different fashion. That is to say that in the age to come, we will experience a unity which is completely beyond what we can comprehend now. That doesn't imply, however, that the actual bonds we have created with other persons, be they spouses, family, or friends, will be broken in the age to come, but that they will all be transformed into the true love that they were a foretaste of in life.
__________________
But God, he says, is simple, and whatever attribute of Him you have reckoned as knowable is of His essence. But the absurdities involved in this sophism are innumerable. When all these high attributes have been enumerated, are they all names of one essence? St. Basil Letter 234
  #83  
Old Apr 30, '12, 9:21 am
summer1052 summer1052 is offline
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Default Re: Why Evangelicals are returning

IMHO, many Evangelicals and Fundamentalists (as they differentiate themselves) are attracted to Orthodoxy as a "heavy form of Protestantism" in fact. But I have yet to see on this thread (and mea culpa if I missed it.) WHY, and from WHERE that comes.

Both Protestants and Orthodoxy reject the supremacy of Peter and the bishopric of Rome as penultimate.

Many Protestants believe Orthodoxy is (marginally) acceptable because they were the "first" so called "reformers" of church "error" and broke with Rome.

And many, many, if not most, Protestants fully believe Luther was trying to correct OFFICIAL CHURCH DOCTRINE, not MISTAKEN PRACTICES by under-educated, misguided, fallible, human priests.

My children can go to school and tell the teachers that I am the worst Mom ever, mean, awful, and never do ANYTHING for them, because I don't let them watch Spongebob like their friends do, punished them for misbehavior, and would not feed them chocolate cake for breakfast.

In their hearts, everything they said was absolutely true based on their understanding of my motives and teaching.

Of course, my teaching and motives were to keep them from the influence of television which I hold will harm them and set a poor example of life, corrected their behavior so they can learn to act appropriately, and feed them a healthy meal so they can be safe, strong, and well. This is my care and duty as a mother to this flock of kiddos.

But neither my children, nor their teachers are going to remove them(selves) to the care of Child Protective Services and start a new family for this. Which is, in essence, what Luther did.

Had I beaten, starved, abused and neglected my children, that would be different. But that's another thread.

The reasons Protestants reconcile to Orthodoxy and Catholicism -- technically, only non-Christians convert -- are as individual and varied as the people themselves.

I am interested in learning the Latin Mass, but only because now I understand it well in English. I know very little Latin, but do know some Greek from years of Protestant Bible study. I live in a rural area, and there are many small churches in old, painted, European styles due to the large immigration of Central Europeans here a century ago. Much like I saw in Europe, there are wood floors, no padding, stained glass, and knee dents on the kneelers are standard. The parish church in town is modern, with carpeting, padded kneelers, and air conditioning. I am comfortable in both. And our Associate Pastor, a gifted musician, sings the Mass. It is the love I feel in the church -- the Body of Christ -- not the buildings that heals my soul.

We can paint generalities with a broad brush here (mixing metaphors with abandon ) but let's be careful to remember they are not absolutes. Nor are they validation for Catholicism vs. Orthodoxy vs Whatever. God calls all of us to the same Home. But we are all given different maps and start at different places on the path. Of course our journeys will be different. Shouldn't they be?

With Love,
Summer
  #84  
Old Apr 30, '12, 1:05 pm
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Marybeloved Marybeloved is offline
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Default Re: Why Evangelicals are returning

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Originally Posted by Jim Dandy View Post
It is not divorce but remarriage when a previous valid, sacramental marriage still exists that is problematic. What God has joined together . . .
Yes, I understand that. What I meant was that the quotation was actually describing a situation where there was no sacrament of marriage (no grace)- That quotation is describing this as "divorce" when it's really an annulment.
  #85  
Old May 1, '12, 3:20 pm
Hesychios Hesychios is offline
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Smile Re: Why Evangelicals are returning

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Dandy View Post
But, nevertheless, the Orthodox Churches permits two divorces and three marriages. But not a fourth!
You mis-stated this twice.

The first time you said three divorces are allowed, this time you say two divorces are allowed, neither is correct.

Sometimes, in the case of a divorce, the injured party may be allowed to remarry by economy. This would not normally be allowed to the guilty party of a failed marriage and may be allowed to the innocent party once.

This is especially helpful to the abandoned spouse with younger children, and helps keep the family plugged in to church life.

In the event of death, people are allowed to remarry, and some wish to. It is conceivable then, for a third marriage to take place in some cases, but it is not common. Since the RC and as far as I know all churches allow remarriage after the death of a spouse this doesn't really factor in as anything different.

The practice of a second marriage (in the event of abandonment or some such case) pre-dates the schism, so it would have actually been the practice of the eastern Catholics 'under' the Pope, if indeed they really were under the Pope as some claim.

The western church chose to nullify it's own sacrament after a marriage fails (not usually before it fails, when people might like to know they are not really married and fix ithe problem, but after the civil courts have weighed in), and pretend it never happened. The eastern churches do not normally nullify the sacrament, and have no plans to start doing so.
  #86  
Old May 1, '12, 4:00 pm
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Cavaradossi Cavaradossi is offline
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Default Re: Why Evangelicals are returning

It's worth repeating that the limitation of three marriages applies to all circumstances, not just to divorce. Even if it was the case that all of one's spouses died, once the third marriage is terminated, no further marriages may be obtained canonically. This was the underlying cause of the tenth-century Moechian controversy, for example, when Emperor Leo VI illicitly obtained a fourth marriage after the death of his third wife. His marriage was only recognized by the Eastern clergy after he served a penance and outlawed fourth marriages.
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But God, he says, is simple, and whatever attribute of Him you have reckoned as knowable is of His essence. But the absurdities involved in this sophism are innumerable. When all these high attributes have been enumerated, are they all names of one essence? St. Basil Letter 234
  #87  
Old May 1, '12, 8:55 pm
Hesychios Hesychios is offline
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Post Re: Why Evangelicals are returning

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Originally Posted by summer1052 View Post
IMHO, many Evangelicals and Fundamentalists (as they differentiate themselves) are attracted to Orthodoxy as a "heavy form of Protestantism" in fact. But I have yet to see on this thread (and mea culpa if I missed it.) WHY, and from WHERE that comes.

Both Protestants and Orthodoxy reject the supremacy of Peter and the bishopric of Rome as penultimate.

Many Protestants believe Orthodoxy is (marginally) acceptable because they were the "first" so called "reformers" of church "error" and broke with Rome...
This has no basis whatever in historical fact. Believing such mythology seems to comfort some Roman Catholics.
  #88  
Old May 1, '12, 10:27 pm
CopticChristian CopticChristian is offline
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This has no basis whatever in historical fact. Believing such mythology seems to comfort some Roman Catholics.
I learned lots about Divorce, Death, Marriage, annulment and other stuff however I am not sure how this relates to why Evangelicals are returning....they have enough issues with Divorce...the Protestant cry I recall was ...God hates divorce and they do it...

Maybe they are returning because there are some rules and regulations about divorce in Orthodoxy and the OHCAC that is different that just God hates Divorce....
  #89  
Old May 1, '12, 11:56 pm
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Cavaradossi Cavaradossi is offline
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Default Re: Why Evangelicals are returning

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This has no basis whatever in historical fact. Believing such mythology seems to comfort some Roman Catholics.
In fact, many protestants (especially of the reformed traditions) see the Orthodox as being further in error than they see the Roman Catholics, because Orthodox teachings on free will appear to them to be "semi-pelagian", and the Orthodox teachings on the trinity appear to them to be "subordinationism". Calvin's triple autotheos is far more incompatible with Orthodox triadology than it is with Catholic triadology.
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But God, he says, is simple, and whatever attribute of Him you have reckoned as knowable is of His essence. But the absurdities involved in this sophism are innumerable. When all these high attributes have been enumerated, are they all names of one essence? St. Basil Letter 234
  #90  
Old May 2, '12, 10:35 am
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Marybeloved Marybeloved is offline
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Default Re: Why Evangelicals are returning

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Originally Posted by Cavaradossi View Post
In fact, many protestants (especially of the reformed traditions) see the Orthodox as being further in error than they see the Roman Catholics, because Orthodox teachings on free will appear to them to be "semi-pelagian", and the Orthodox teachings on the trinity appear to them to be "subordinationism". Calvin's triple autotheos is far more incompatible with Orthodox triadology than it is with Catholic triadology.
Most protestants I know will put up with almost anything other than the papacy.
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