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  #16  
Old Apr 29, '12, 9:25 pm
ACCT ACCT is offline
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Join Date: February 24, 2012
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Default Re: Forfeiture Laws

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeafByNiggle View Post
The Amendment IV which you so kindly quoted states:

Most people would agree that seizing property used in the commission of a crime is not an unreasonable seizure and therefore is not prohibited by this amendment. You go much further than the founding fathers when you say "no forteiture laws, period". Apparently cooler heads decided to add the word "unreasonable".

And just to be clear, you are saying that there should be no laws that confiscate a computer used to distribute child pornography, right?
"There are two types of forfeiture cases, criminal and civil. Almost all forfeiture cases practiced today are civil. In civil forfeiture cases, the US Government sues the item of property, not the person; the owner is effectively a third party claimant. Once the government establishes probable cause that the property is subject to forfeiture, the owner must prove on a "preponderance of the evidence" that it is not. The owner need not be judged guilty of any crime. In contrast, criminal forfeiture is usually carried out in a sentence following a conviction and is a punitive act against the offender. Since the government can choose the type of case, a civil case is almost always chosen. The costs of such cases is high for the owner, usually totaling around $10,000 and can take up to three years."

I oppose ALL civil forfeitures. We have local police on I 10 seizing fancy cars and money. The only highway robbers that I know wear a uniform, especially local police.
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  #17  
Old Apr 30, '12, 6:16 am
LeafByNiggle's Avatar
LeafByNiggle LeafByNiggle is offline
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Default Re: Forfeiture Laws

Quote:
Originally Posted by ACCT View Post
"There are two types of forfeiture cases, criminal and civil. Almost all forfeiture cases practiced today are civil. In civil forfeiture cases, the US Government sues the item of property, not the person; the owner is effectively a third party claimant. Once the government establishes probable cause that the property is subject to forfeiture, the owner must prove on a "preponderance of the evidence" that it is not. The owner need not be judged guilty of any crime. In contrast, criminal forfeiture is usually carried out in a sentence following a conviction and is a punitive act against the offender. Since the government can choose the type of case, a civil case is almost always chosen. The costs of such cases is high for the owner, usually totaling around $10,000 and can take up to three years."

I oppose ALL civil forfeitures. We have local police on I 10 seizing fancy cars and money. The only highway robbers that I know wear a uniform, especially local police.
Why don't you just answer the simple question I asked without dancing all around it? Do you or do you not oppose the forfeiture of a computer used to distribute child pornography? Yes or no?
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  #18  
Old Apr 30, '12, 10:18 am
ACCT ACCT is offline
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Default Re: Forfeiture Laws

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeafByNiggle View Post
Why don't you just answer the simple question I asked without dancing all around it? Do you or do you not oppose the forfeiture of a computer used to distribute child pornography? Yes or no?


Yes, if the case is criminal forfeiture in terms of divine and natural law. No, if it is a civil forfeiture. As I pointed out before, there is almost no criminal forfeitures; therefore, your point is moot.

Almost all of forfeitures are civil forfeitures, and are therefore are unjust laws. An unjust law is no law at all.

As you can tell, I am not rules oriented. I am principles and objective oriented. Do you have a problem with that?
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  #19  
Old Apr 30, '12, 2:56 pm
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LeafByNiggle LeafByNiggle is offline
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Default Re: Forfeiture Laws

Quote:
Originally Posted by ACCT View Post
Yes, if the case is criminal forfeiture in terms of divine and natural law. No, if it is a civil forfeiture. As I pointed out before, there is almost no criminal forfeitures; therefore, your point is moot.

Almost all of forfeitures are civil forfeitures, and are therefore are unjust laws. An unjust law is no law at all.

As you can tell, I am not rules oriented. I am principles and objective oriented. Do you have a problem with that?
No, no problem. I would rather argue principles than rules any day. And thanks for finally making some sense.
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  #20  
Old Apr 30, '12, 6:26 pm
ACCT ACCT is offline
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Default Re: Forfeiture Laws

Man-made ethics are subject to change by man. Look at all
the discussion about rules-based, principles-based and objectives-based
accounting. On the other hand, God's ten commandments were literally
written in stone. I am not aware of any changes in the ten commandments
over the centuries.
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  #21  
Old Apr 30, '12, 6:27 pm
ACCT ACCT is offline
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Join Date: February 24, 2012
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Default Re: Forfeiture Laws

The IRS "makes" the laws. I like the IRS definition of income. Income is everything unless the IRS says it is not income. On the other hand, nothing is a deduction unless the IRS says it is a deduction. Everything is in favor of the IRS.

At the present time a taxpayer does not have the right to a trial by jury if there is a dispute with the IRS. I would like to remedy that. I do not want our judicial system run by “professionals,” lawyers and judges. I want to limit the role of judges. I believe that the eroding role of juries is contrary to the intent of the Founding Fathers. To remedy the eroding role of juries, I support a constitutional amendment to inform all jurors of their Constitutional right to nullify the law.

The case that opened my eyes to the abuses of government agencies was BABBIT v. SWEET HOME CHAPTER OF COMMUNITIES FOR A GREATER OREGON, 515 U.S. 687 (1995)
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  #22  
Old May 2, '12, 11:38 am
ACCT ACCT is offline
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Default Re: Forfeiture Laws

The role of the government is an umpire, not our "partner"! Thomas Jefferson supported this idea, and it is embedded in our laws going all the way back to 1775 (e.g. Virginia and Massachusetts Constitutions).

The IRS, Social Services, and all the "alphabet police" incorporate another idea, the idea that government is a participant. There is no Constitutional justification for this idea, as far as I can see. Additionally, government bureaucracies violate another intention of the Founding Fathers, the separation of powers. For example, Congress gives the IRS very broad powers to make law (legislative). The IRS has the power to go out to find the people who break “the law” (executive). Additionally, the IRS has the power to judge a taxpayer guilty (judicial).

No wonder it is so easy for the government to justify unjust laws like the civil forfeiture laws and ObamaCare.
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