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  #1  
Old Apr 30, '12, 9:55 pm
nleeper2 nleeper2 is offline
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Lightbulb Birth Control and Family Finance

Hi All,

I had a thought the other day about birth control and why its such a problem in Western life for Catholic/Christian families. The European and American economies don't allow room for big families anymore like they used to only 100 years ago. More people are impoverished and can't afford more children, even if they make a decent income and are part of the middle class, and that is why I believe many families, including those I know personally, choose to use birth control - to avoid the financial burden of more children.

My thought; however, was this: What if local parishes, or the Church as a whole, implemented financial aid for families with x, y and z amount of children. They could offer free day care, financial grants, or even sponsor loans for prospective families who want more children but cant afford to care for them properly. In addition, perhaps the Church could provide fruitful families with free Mass dedications or with a special blessing to help that family spiritually as well (which of course is more important than finances). Yet it is important to have money and a suitable level of resources to support a family, and so I think the Church should support families financially.

So I was wondering, what do you think? Do you go to a parish that does something like this or have heard of one? because I would like to know. Thanks and God Bless
  #2  
Old Apr 30, '12, 10:45 pm
Pfaffenhoffen Pfaffenhoffen is offline
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Default Re: Birth Control and Family Finance

Quote:
Originally Posted by nleeper2 View Post
Hi All,

I had a thought the other day about birth control and why its such a problem in Western life for Catholic/Christian families. The European and American economies don't allow room for big families anymore like they used to only 100 years ago. More people are impoverished and can't afford more children, even if they make a decent income and are part of the middle class, and that is why I believe many families, including those I know personally, choose to use birth control - to avoid the financial burden of more children.

My thought; however, was this: What if local parishes, or the Church as a whole, implemented financial aid for families with x, y and z amount of children. They could offer free day care, financial grants, or even sponsor loans for prospective families who want more children but cant afford to care for them properly. In addition, perhaps the Church could provide fruitful families with free Mass dedications or with a special blessing to help that family spiritually as well (which of course is more important than finances). Yet it is important to have money and a suitable level of resources to support a family, and so I think the Church should support families financially.

So I was wondering, what do you think? Do you go to a parish that does something like this or have heard of one? because I would like to know. Thanks and God Bless


I think that we, Americans and Europeans, can downgrade our style of life a lot. Someone told here that he was single and as worried as you are and remembered the family of 10 (not all children) of Somalian people who lived happily and smiling next door. For them, America was the Paradise!
  #3  
Old Apr 30, '12, 11:29 pm
stephe1987 stephe1987 is offline
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Default Re: Birth Control and Family Finance

The Catholic Church does not require that people have large families. But if you do want a large family, you will have to make sacrifices to get by.
  #4  
Old May 1, '12, 12:09 am
desert mannah desert mannah is offline
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Cool Re: Birth Control and Family Finance

"They could offer free day care, financial grants, or even sponsor loans for prospective families who want more children but cant afford to care for them properly. In addition, perhaps the Church could provide fruitful families with free Mass dedications or with a special blessing to help that family spiritually as well (which of course is more important than finances). Yet it is important to have money and a suitable level of resources to support a family"
Ooops! do i see here a kind of danger coming ahead with regards to the world,
this population control seems to me is like a big bang that is about to explode or is now taking on its course and in times to come... no offense to other who sees the options of grant, an option if it comes to mind it looks to me we are taking a course forward a more father down the road to god...
"remembering that of in the scripture passage" when Christ was asked, "if it is legal to give tax to Caesar"... looking at it this way, the population problem is addressed not only to the governing world but also to the good of every being created by God... if the focus be always addressed to favor some of the kinds of Caesar, we will be entering a great Ark of darkness, of no return like putting into the trust waste the good nature of Gods creation, this grants will mean make its advocate richer more and the poorer more poorer. what needs to be done is educate the people on the sanctity of pro-creation... not to kill by birth controls and the likes... this things only happens to people who have turned away from God... if they were consecrated to god since in their baptism, i believe they will not be lost, population will not be a problem any more... what people does today are the thing done in times that of Sodom and Gomorrah... the morals and immoralities of man kind, the evils of mans doing... if the governing kingdom has a duty, so too is the church has a duty among his brethren... and the course must be address to the "roots" of the problem not to the "fruits" of the problem... birth control will not be the answer, life begins at home, and home is a family... parents have a duty to their siblings, the trouble comes when people starts to dis obey the rules of the father and their parents. this is were starts the destruction of mankind... this is were the original Sin have surprised the fall of Man trough the serpent. being played as the game... the deception of serpents to perform the likeness of being like god in his "prochoice" the problem lies in the nature of being evils in every man of today the lust of its kind... with out that lust there will never be a conception being in side the womb out of wedlock. the solution is still in the scripture, your Father is perfect, thou, we all must be perfect in our decision making... birth control will put life more in danger, if we provide for the needs for this people who are doing Satan a favor... we are not helping this poor ones to live life according to the dictates of the divine rule... just my opinion... hope to be looked upon by those in the authority...
  #5  
Old May 1, '12, 9:42 am
SamH SamH is offline
 
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Default Re: Birth Control and Family Finance

Quote:
Originally Posted by nleeper2 View Post
Hi All,

I had a thought the other day about birth control and why its such a problem in Western life for Catholic/Christian families. The European and American economies don't allow room for big families anymore like they used to only 100 years ago. More people are impoverished and can't afford more children, even if they make a decent income and are part of the middle class, and that is why I believe many families, including those I know personally, choose to use birth control - to avoid the financial burden of more children.
So the richest economies in the world are impoverished? How'd that happen?
  #6  
Old May 1, '12, 9:48 am
Rence Rence is offline
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Default Re: Birth Control and Family Finance

Quote:
Originally Posted by nleeper2 View Post
My thought; however, was this: What if local parishes, or the Church as a whole, implemented financial aid for families with x, y and z amount of children. They could offer free day care, financial grants, or even sponsor loans for prospective families who want more children but cant afford to care for them properly. In addition, perhaps the Church could provide fruitful families with free Mass dedications or with a special blessing to help that family spiritually as well (which of course is more important than finances). Yet it is important to have money and a suitable level of resources to support a family, and so I think the Church should support families financially.

So I was wondering, what do you think? Do you go to a parish that does something like this or have heard of one? because I would like to know. Thanks and God Bless
That is a great idea!! What a wonderful way to encourage people to have more kids when they want to but can't afford to. But sadly, no, I don't know of any parish that has such a support system for big families who need the help. It's true that many people don't want more than one or two kids...but there's a whole lot of people who would have more if they thought they could afford to have more.
  #7  
Old May 1, '12, 10:09 am
Roy5 Roy5 is offline
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Default Re: Birth Control and Family Finance

Two thoughts.

Financial demands in the culture today far exceed those of our ancestors. My ancestors - and those of most of us - were overwhelmingly farmers. They often had large families for theset and other reasons. (1) They could feed them mostly off the farm. (2) They needed help with the chores and put older family members to work as soon as they were old enough. (3) Many of the children did not finish high school, as society was such that an advanced education was not only rare but not nearly as important as it is today. (4) Before social security many parents knew that should circumstances require they would have enough children so that one or more would be able to care for them in old age. (5) Parents want more for their children these days. Right or wrong, that's a reality.

The idea of having churches and others contribute to the costs involved in raising the children of others may sound good, but I seriously doubt if it would work. If they have such extra, they might choose to have more children themselves. In some places like the USSR, I believe the government provided support for children in larger families. As I recall, Quebec once voted to do that - pay so much per additional child - and look at Quebec today: the most secular area in the Americas.

Frankly, while I oppose abortion except in extreme circumstances - like saving the life of a mother of other children - I feel that married couples have the right to use birth control if they intelligently decide to limit the number of children. This is a matter of their conscience. The idea that the Church should tell them it's a grave sin to do so is unfortunate. It simply turns people against the Church. It makes many resent what they feel a silly rule formulated by an all-male celibate clergy. It also often interferes with the freedom as well as the spontaneity a couple may feel when they participate in conjugal love, surely a great gift of God to marriage and to joy, bonding and relaxation within marriage.
  #8  
Old May 1, '12, 1:21 pm
SamH SamH is offline
 
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Default Re: Birth Control and Family Finance

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy5 View Post
Two thoughts.

Financial demands in the culture today far exceed those of our ancestors. My ancestors - and those of most of us - were overwhelmingly farmers. They often had large families for theset and other reasons. (1) They could feed them mostly off the farm. (2) They needed help with the chores and put older family members to work as soon as they were old enough. (3) Many of the children did not finish high school, as society was such that an advanced education was not only rare but not nearly as important as it is today. (4) Before social security many parents knew that should circumstances require they would have enough children so that one or more would be able to care for them in old age. (5) Parents want more for their children these days. Right or wrong, that's a reality.
.


Actually the demands for children are even greater today than they were for our ancestors. The problem is governments have stepped between the children and the aged and masked the obvious link between a secure old age and the number of productive children one has. In doing so they have also removed the goal of raising good productive citizens.

My mother raised 12 productive children with at least 6 paying in the maximum SS taxes. But because the government takes all she would have received from them and distributes it to those who may have had one child that is sitting a jail cell her old age security is hurt by modern society. In fact her efforts as a mother are not rewarded - she's actually punished for her contribution to society while those that did less are rewarded with more.
  #9  
Old May 6, '12, 9:00 pm
AthenaC AthenaC is offline
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Default Re: Birth Control and Family Finance

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamH View Post
Actually the demands for children are even greater today than they were for our ancestors. The problem is governments have stepped between the children and the aged and masked the obvious link between a secure old age and the number of productive children one has.
At a macro level yes. I don't think we can lay this all at the government's feet; humans in general aren't very long-term planners - how many people aren't saving for retirement even though they KNOW they will have to fund their own retirement?

The issue is, 100 years ago in an agrarian society, the need for lots of children was an ever-present, immediate need (i.e. on a micro level). So people respond accordingly.

Right now, there are powerful disincentives to have children on a micro level; others have pointed out the additional difficulties with having large families in the present day. Although the macro-level need for lots of children exists, people don't see it at the micro level, so they respond to the micro-level incentives by having fewer children.
  #10  
Old May 7, '12, 12:00 am
nleeper2 nleeper2 is offline
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Post Re: Birth Control and Family Finance

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Originally Posted by AthenaC View Post
At a macro level yes. I don't think we can lay this all at the government's feet; humans in general aren't very long-term planners - how many people aren't saving for retirement even though they KNOW they will have to fund their own retirement?

The issue is, 100 years ago in an agrarian society, the need for lots of children was an ever-present, immediate need (i.e. on a micro level). So people respond accordingly.

Right now, there are powerful disincentives to have children on a micro level; others have pointed out the additional difficulties with having large families in the present day. Although the macro-level need for lots of children exists, people don't see it at the micro level, so they respond to the micro-level incentives by having fewer children.
Interesting point, and I agree and that is why I believe that the church, and not the government necessarily, should step in to provide incentives for families to have children. And, of course, having a large family is not a requirement, but for those who would want one but can't afford one, can at least be supported by the church in an ideal situation.
  #11  
Old May 14, '12, 5:43 pm
catholic_rn catholic_rn is offline
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Default Re: Birth Control and Family Finance

This is jut my opinion, but I think a lot of couples who say they want more children but can't afford them actually could afford them if they changed their lifestyle.

Our society tells us that we need large homes, newer vehicles, multiple vehicles, all the fancy electronic gadgets, not to mention pedicures, manicures, salon-styled hair, etc etc. Without all the extra money-sucking fluff, many families could easily afford more children. Not always, but more often than not, materialism determines family size more than anything.

I know couples that make nearly three digits income with two kids and complain about how broke they are, but also know families, my own included, who make poverty level income, have three or more kids, and are doing just fine.
  #12  
Old May 14, '12, 6:06 pm
nleeper2 nleeper2 is offline
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Default Re: Birth Control and Family Finance

I agree that materialism does weaken a middle-upper class parent's desire for more children. However, I believe that perhaps, with an increase in income, comes and increase in the costs of living. For example, if a "rich" family had an income increase, then they may decide to move into a suburb with a nice public school or safe communities. Doing so involves the taking out of a mortgage, transportation costs (for commuting to work and etc.) increased property tax, etc. Thus I believe, the cost of having additional children also multiplies and suddenly these "rich" families are "broke." Now maybe this means they don't have the means to buy what vanities they want and desire, or rather they have already spent most of it on those luxuries, but I think, in part, more children means more college tuition, more insurance, more increased costs towards their standard of living.

I hope that makes sense. I do agree that materialism and selfishness does bring about the decline in family life, from less child bearing to divorce and adultery. But I think that these families, and more importantly the poorer ones, should receive some sort of aid from the church, whether that be free day care or financial aid.
  #13  
Old May 14, '12, 6:17 pm
MrsFlapjack MrsFlapjack is offline
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Default Re: Birth Control and Family Finance

Quote:
Originally Posted by catholic_rn View Post
This is jut my opinion, but I think a lot of couples who say they want more children but can't afford them actually could afford them if they changed their lifestyle.

Our society tells us that we need large homes, newer vehicles, multiple vehicles, all the fancy electronic gadgets, not to mention pedicures, manicures, salon-styled hair, etc etc. Without all the extra money-sucking fluff, many families could easily afford more children. Not always, but more often than not, materialism determines family size more than anything.

I know couples that make nearly three digits income with two kids and complain about how broke they are, but also know families, my own included, who make poverty level income, have three or more kids, and are doing just fine.
You are absolutely correct. My husband's income isn't very much, but we make due with what we have. It can be tough at times if extra expenses arise. My daughter really needs braces, her teeth are horribly crooked, so that is a big concern of mine right now. But I am surviving just fine without makeup, salon visits, and getting my nails done. All the furniture in our house is either purchased second hand or given to us. Same goes for our clothing as well.
  #14  
Old May 15, '12, 9:51 am
manualman manualman is offline
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Default Re: Birth Control and Family Finance

Quote:
Originally Posted by nleeper2 View Post
Hi All,

I had a thought the other day about birth control and why its such a problem in Western life for Catholic/Christian families. The European and American economies don't allow room for big families anymore like they used to only 100 years ago. More people are impoverished and can't afford more children, even if they make a decent income and are part of the middle class, and that is why I believe many families, including those I know personally, choose to use birth control - to avoid the financial burden of more children.

...
The first part (quoted) simply isn't true at all. Families today are objectively FAR richer than ever in history. King Soloman never dreamed of the kind of material luxuries that lower middle class Americans take for granted. What has changed are the expectations that our culture pounds into our heads. We believe that we MUST have a car for each driver in the family, we MUST have a bedroom for each person, we MUST have central air and travel vacations. We MUST have cable TV, and iphones and computers and flat screen TVs and 3 weeks worth of clothes, our own laundry machines, dishwashers, regular restaurant visits, etc.

150 years ago a family of 10 had none of these things. They mostly raised and canned their own veggies, raised and slaughtered their own meat, sweated when it was hot and shivered when it was cold. They rose when it got light out and went to bed when it got dark. If they wanted entertainment, they invented their own games or learned to make their own music.

We've got it really good these days. The problem is not that things are so expensive, but that we believe we deserve every thing we have and that the world really owes us a lot MORE than we currently have - that it is an injustice that we don't have it.

That's whats wrong with ME anyways. Your experience may be different. I'm working on changing, but it's slow going. I have gotten content once again to commuting to work in a 17 year old econobox. It was practically free and STILL has the luxury of AC, plus I get 40 mpg. I barely miss the Cadillac. Vacation travel, though, is a tougher one to give up. I'm still spoiled.

As for the "the Church oughtta give us free stuff" part, well dream on. Catholics today are among the stingiest of religious groups, in psite of our opulent lifestyles. In many cases we can't even afford to keep our own schools open and replace the roof on the church when it gets old, much less start handing out cash and benefits. I recommend that you attend a parish finance committee meeting sometime as a humble observer.
  #15  
Old May 16, '12, 6:00 am
catholic_rn catholic_rn is offline
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Default Re: Birth Control and Family Finance

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Originally Posted by MrsFlapjack View Post
You are absolutely correct. My husband's income isn't very much, but we make due with what we have. It can be tough at times if extra expenses arise. My daughter really needs braces, her teeth are horribly crooked, so that is a big concern of mine right now. But I am surviving just fine without makeup, salon visits, and getting my nails done. All the furniture in our house is either purchased second hand or given to us. Same goes for our clothing as well.
 

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