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  #106  
Old May 1, '12, 10:17 am
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Corki Corki is offline
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Default Re: Little Old Nuns - Scare the Vatican?

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Originally Posted by trickster View Post
Benedict, be specific, what doctrines are they disobeying that the Pope is failing in geting them to obey? What threate to orthodoxy are they posing to garner the attention of the Vatican? They make a heck of a lot of sense for a modern day world!

Cheerz

Bruce
This was posted on the other thread. Make sure to watch the video all the way to the end. Father Barrone does an excellent job of explaining why some of the actions of the LCWR have caused the Church to become concerned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwinch2 View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buDXN...e_gdata_player

Fr. Robert Barron talks about the investigation 3 years ago when it was first began. Some of his words seem remarkably prescient given where we find ourselves today. In addition, you can see the relationship between how people responded at the time the investigation was announced and since it has been concluded. At the risk of being crude, SSDD. The same old objections from the same old people. Heck, they might have just saved their original text and slapped a new date on it with some slight update to acknowledge that the investigation is now over instead of beginning.
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  #107  
Old May 1, '12, 10:23 am
Marie5890 Marie5890 is offline
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Default Re: Little Old Nuns - Scare the Vatican?

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Originally Posted by Brooklyn View Post
What is that the many of the laity misunderstand? My understanding is that there is a very serious problem with the leadership of many women religious, that they are in direct conflict with teachings of the church and are spiritually dangerous. Is that a misunderstanding?
That the Vatican is going after and reprimanding women religious as a whole. They are not. They are very specific in their concerns.

Again I am addressing many laity as a whole. Not your personal understanding.

Im not speaking about your personal understanding.
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  #108  
Old May 1, '12, 11:48 am
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JReducation JReducation is offline
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Default Re: Little Old Nuns - Scare the Vatican?

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Originally Posted by Marie5890 View Post
Thank you BroJ, for always "instructing the uninformed" with kindness and love.

You are very good at this sprititual act of mercy.

I think many times, many of us informed lay Catholics just dont understand how the Vatican and the religious work.

From the onset of the OP and onward in the thread, it seems pretty clear to me that lacking of understanding amongst the laity has lead us to misunderstand the entire situation.

The title of the thread is misleading. The Vatican is not afraid of nuns, or religious for that matter.

The OP seems not to understand the dynamics of the situation.
I believe the problem is a misunderstanding of the role of the LCSW and its authority. There Vatican sees a definite problem with the way that the LCSW does business. However, the Vatican also understands what many lay people do not understand. The LCSW has no authority over the sisters either individually or collectively. The danger is their influence, not their authority. They are very public and many sisters and lay people have access to their statements and their activities. Those who don't know that the LCSW cannot speak authoritatively, will find some or much of what it has to say very disconcerting and others will just jump the train, believing that they have no choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooklyn View Post
I agree that the title of this thread is very misleading. But the OP's premise is that the Vatican needs to leave the nuns alone, he thinks they are doing fine. Anyone would have to disagree with that.

To accuse the rest of us of not understanding is, I think, at least a bit unfair. We understand that there are nuns out there who are defying the Vatican and Church teaching on many different levels and are trying to teach others to do so as well. Their actions are extremely dangerous and the Vatican had no other choice but to step in as they have done. There is a crisis in the Church on the scale of which we have never seen before. I cannot support the Holy Father enough as he tries to tackle this. The Church will ultimately be successful, but again, at the cost of how many souls?
This is one area of misunderstanding. The Vatican is not stepping into any religious community. If a religious superior wants to take her sisters and walk off a cliff, there is nothing to stop her, since the Vatican is not dealing with the congregations and their superiors. It's only dealing with the LCWR. It seems that its hope is that if the Vatican can get the LCWR back on track, it can disseminate good information and produce good programs and services that would help the sisters remain on the same page as the Church. The truth is that many sisters do not go on for more theology courses. You reach a certain age and you're tired of school. You rely on workshops and publications to keep you informed. The LCSW is a valuable and influential resource.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooklyn View Post
What is that the many of the laity misunderstand? My understanding is that there is a very serious problem with the leadership of many women religious, that they are in direct conflict with teachings of the church and are spiritually dangerous. Is that a misunderstanding?
This is he misunderstanding right here. If the problem were perceived to be with the leadership of women religious, the organization to tap would have been the Council for Major Superiors of Women Religious. This council is made up of the leadership for women religious.

The word "leadership" when used in the same sentence with the LCWR does not imply or include superiors and their councils. It's a different kind of leadership. It's a moral leadership, if you want to call it that, not a juridical leadership. But the Vatican is not speaking to the superiors, at least not at this time.

We have to understand leadership as it is being used when speaking about the LCWR. It has nothing to do with those who actually lead the religious communities to which these sisters belong. I'm thinking of a good way to explain how the term is used, I guess he best way that I can explain it is when we refer to someone as a leader, because he has influence, takes initiative and is charismatic. It does not mean that he has authority to command obedience or compliance. Only superiors have that power and they are not collectively part of the LCSW. The superiors are in a different organization. If any superior has a membership to the LCSW, she is an individual member. She's not part of a team of superiors. The LCSW is not where this group meets and works.

We have to support the LCSW and the Vatican. We need to encourage them both to go forward, not lose heart, take a deep breadth when they disagree and try to listen and understand each other. If these things happen, the issues can fixed one at a time. If there is an absence of trust and good will, there will be no progress.

Those of us who are not sisters, would do well to show some support for the sisters too. My way of doing it is by simply holding on to the same belief, they can do this. This is not impossible. The Vatican wants to help, not to punish. The sisters have a great deal to bring to the table and the rest of us Catholics are eager to hear about it. Finally, the Church is not the enemy. Judgmentalism and fear of trust is always the greatest enemy.

As Thomas a Kempis once wrote, "If the faults of your neighbor appear so big that they feel greater than your own, you don't know yourself well. Go back and think about your faults."

We have to always encourage people to look at what they need to change, before looking in the other direction. We have to encourage the sisters to do the same and tell them that we believe that they can do it. These are not evil women.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV
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  #109  
Old May 1, '12, 12:03 pm
Brooklyn Brooklyn is offline
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Default Re: Little Old Nuns - Scare the Vatican?

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by JReducation View Post
This is one area of misunderstanding. The Vatican is not stepping into any religious community. If a religious superior wants to take her sisters and walk off a cliff, there is nothing to stop her, since the Vatican is not dealing with the congregations and their superiors. It's only dealing with the LCWR. It seems that its hope is that if the Vatican can get the LCWR back on track, it can disseminate good information and produce good programs and services that would help the sisters remain on the same page as the Church. The truth is that many sisters do not go on for more theology courses. You reach a certain age and you're tired of school. You rely on workshops and publications to keep you informed. The LCSW is a valuable and influential resource.
I don't think I wrote anything about a religious community. I've been mentioning the LCWR all along. What is the LCSW? I don't know anything about that.

I'm sorry, Br. JR, but no matter what you write, the fact remains that our Church is in crisis, and the nuns are a big part of that crisis, and thankfully, the Vatican is stepping in and doing something about it. A bishop has been appointed to oversee the LCWR, so they will definitely be answering to Church hierarchy now.

The LCWR say that they represent 80% of all nuns and sisters in the US. You are basically saying they are lying, that they do not represent that many religious, and they are actually a very small minority. You say there are only 60 to 80 of them, they say they are about 1500. Who am I to believe? And why would they lie about that?
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  #110  
Old May 1, '12, 12:29 pm
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JReducation JReducation is offline
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Default Re: Little Old Nuns - Scare the Vatican?

[quote=Brooklyn;9246643]
Quote:

I don't think I wrote anything about a religious community. I've been mentioning the LCWR all along. What is the LCSW? I don't know anything about that.

I'm sorry, Br. JR, but no matter what you write, the fact remains that our Church is in crisis, and the nuns are a big part of that crisis, and thankfully, the Vatican is stepping in and doing something about it. A bishop has been appointed to oversee the LCWR, so they will definitely be answering to Church hierarchy now.

The LCWR say that they represent 80% of all nuns and sisters in the US. You are basically saying they are lying, that they do not represent that many religious, and they are actually a very small minority. You say there are only 60 to 80 of them, they say they are about 1500. Who am I to believe? And why would they lie about that?
I never said they were lying. I said that the fact that they have people who pay dues does not mean that they actually represent them for two very important reasons. 1) The have no authority to speak for the sisters, only the Conference of Major Superiors can do that. 2) The decision making body of the LCSW is a handful of people as stated by the Council of Major Superior so Women Religious when the LCSW broke ranks on the HHR issue and claimed to represent 80% of the sisters in the country. The Council of Major Superiors of Women Religious said that this was not the case. There are 1500 or so sisters who belong to the organization out of thousands of sisters. They come from about 80% of the religious communities in the USA. However, one sister from the Dominican Order does not count for 80% of the Dominican Sisters. Do you see the difference in how the math is done?

When they look at their list, they see 80 out of 100 congregations on their list. However, when the superiors look at the list they see, one sister from this congregation and 5 from that one, 20 from another, 4 from another and so forth. There are two ways of looking at these numbers.

The mission of the Archbishop is to help the LCWR. His mission is not to intervene in the affairs of the religious communities themselves. People are reading that into this assignment, but it's not part of the assignment. The assignment is very straightforward, to help the LCWR get back on track, because they are in contact with the sisters and the bishops, they can be a very valuable tool or they can be a liability. They have the big name, even if they don't have the big numbers. They also have canonical status in the Church, which is important to the Vatican.

You folks think that I'm denying the existence of a problem. I am doing no such thing. I'm simply clarifying that the mission of the Archbishop is not to do what everyone is hoping or thinking, that is to reform religious life for women. His mission is to help reform LCWR. Hopefully, if the LCWR can be put back on track, it can become a very powerful resource for the congregations to reform themselves.

This alone is a great thing, the fact that the LCWR is getting help. Why not celebrate that instead of focusing on what we wish would happen, but is not happening? Everyone wants to tell the sisters how to lead religious life. That's the job of their general chapters and their superiors. The LCWR provides resources for those superiors and general chapters. So far, those resources have done more harm than good. The LCWR has to be fixed. What happens at the level of the individual congregation has not been determined. Until further notice, life goes on as usual. The superior and the general chapter govern and the rest of us have no voice in the matter. This includes the bishops. We have to work with what the law allows.

Right now the law is only allowing for the Archbishop to work on the Conference, not on the congregations. That's what I've been trying to point out, because many people are setting themselves up for disappointment when the Archbishop says that he's finished and the congregations remain as they were or surprised if they enact some changes that people never expected.

I'm not the enemy here. I'm trying to be the voice of reason by pointing out to how the system is designed to work and to things that have been misunderstood. I don't believe that the LCWR intentionally meant to deceive anyone by claiming that it represents 80% of American sisters. It's all in how one reads the statistics. We're not talking about evil people here. Neither the sisters nor the hierarchy have an agenda here, other than to do what they think is right. Which is where they disagree.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV
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How does one become a "Mirror of Perfection?"
  #111  
Old May 1, '12, 12:36 pm
EcceAgnusDei EcceAgnusDei is offline
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Default Re: Little Old Nuns - Scare the Vatican?

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Originally Posted by JReducation View Post
Everyone wants to tell the sisters how to lead religious life. That's the job of their general chapters and their superiors.
I think the laity are within their rights to complain when religious are as notoriously heterodox as the LCWR. I just want religious to be orthodox and faithful and not corrupt the faith of others, cause scandals, and be an obstacle to salvation. That doesn't seem to be an unreasonable request or desire that somehow steps on the toes of the general chapters or superiors.

+ PAX

Last edited by EcceAgnusDei; May 1, '12 at 12:47 pm.
  #112  
Old May 1, '12, 12:43 pm
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Marauder Marauder is offline
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Default Re: Little Old Nuns - Scare the Vatican?

Brother JR, Another excellent explanation of a current news story affecting the Catholic church and the US. I only wish things like this would appear in the mainstream media so it could be used to explain it to the community at large. Especially the people that take the attitude "if it appears in the New York Times (or other mainstream media) it is gospel, if it doesn't appear in mainstream media then they don't know what they are talking about."

God Bless you and your brothers
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  #113  
Old May 1, '12, 3:47 pm
manualman manualman is offline
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Default Re: Little Old Nuns - Scare the Vatican?

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Originally Posted by trickster View Post
... What happened to the spirit of the 60's ...
"The Spirit of the 60's" engaged in a variety of self destructive activities and contracted a venereal disease that rendered it sterile.

Sometimes the corporeal world actually DOES reflect the spiritual world.
  #114  
Old May 1, '12, 3:59 pm
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Default Re: Little Old Nuns - Scare the Vatican?

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Originally Posted by EcceAgnusDei View Post
I think the laity are within their rights to complain when religious are as notoriously heterodox as the LCWR. I just want religious to be orthodox and faithful and not corrupt the faith of others, cause scandals, and be an obstacle to salvation. That doesn't seem to be an unreasonable request or desire that somehow steps on the toes of the general chapters or superiors.

+ PAX
What you're saying is very reasonable. It's what I want too. But not everyone on the Interweb is being as reasonable. Some people want to go further and actually tell the sisters how to do A, B, and C. That's over the top.

Fraternally,

Br. JR,FFV
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How does one become a "Mirror of Perfection?"
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