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  #31  
Old Apr 30, '12, 5:46 am
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GaryTaylor GaryTaylor is offline
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Default Re: How much can you trust psychology?

Everyone wants a quick fix today in this high tech world. And yes that includes your treatment for whatever this unknown manifested behavior may be.

The question becomes how do you know your being properly treated? Time becomes of essense, thus it becomes apparent, usually in your ability to first identify, then properly respond to your own feelings.

Always comes around to those "feelings".

You see yourself correcting your own behavior, from a clinical aspect they are merely pointing out their observations of You, to You. If you follow the advice you correct the behavior quicker, if you assume they are wrong then you apply incorrect denial. This too becomes self evident but takes much longer to treat.

The "known" comes in seeing yourself grow through mature responsible change in behavior. Short-Cuts? I don't even know what that is. Literally you need to be "observed" over a period of time. So this so-called behavior is witnessed manifesting itself thus comes the unlocked secret as to "how" it happens. Medication is "always" the very last resort not the first.

As far to what moral-ethical mode the clinic deems relevant? Well for me modern-psychology is fine when supported by "Bible". In fact its confirmed for me what I did not see since I found myself "constantly" reverting to it. HONESTY, self-honesty oh the Bible becomes imperative in a drug free treatment plan. I just never used the word religion or Bible. I used the Biblical teachings like Honesty.

Personally now from what I'm seeing in NYC and elsewhere the Catholics are not even playing this sublime treatment today. They are outright teaching the Bible as part of treatment now. Especially with addiction. Its behavior is self-deception thus living a LIE.

What I see working is what has always worked, long-term, reality therapy, based in sound spiritual teaching. I don't believe in "recovering" addicts etc. I believe in "resolved" issues. And yes relapse is part of recovery through never an excuse.

Look at "any" twelve step program for example? Based directly on Church teaching all twelve steps. They are nothing but a "church" replacement, thus a "support group"

Support groups can be many things, like "church" family, friends, positve social activity, health etc.

Oh it just goes on and on out here with every single issue you can bring up. Bi-Polar, sexual abuse which often leads to sexual disorientation. Trans-Gender is so common today its simply astounding. Its so rare your about as likely to hit Mega-Lotto on your first try as to see a legitimate case of this.

DSM-IV? Listen I don't even know ya, and could talk to you for an hour and fit you somewhere in that manual. Medicated...Done Deal, Hamster Wheel.

Don't take insurance? Listen you might want to use those "first" on a sliding pay scale. The insurance is where all the folly reside's. Money motivated. Those who see money as simply a means to an end is where the real help resides.

Yes Bishop Sheen was a bright light who missed very little in observation.

Psychotherapy works with specific behaviors very well, in particular Anger, better termed Rage, Hostility, thus for example Sounding Boards or Encounter Groups become a valuable tool. These Gang Bangers you see, that is likely the fastest solution to resolve with them. Usually they grew in some survival of the fittest ghetto, where violence was a key tool to survival. They simply do not know how to behave or deal with their feelings. Thus they deal with anger in literally barbaric ways. Oh I've seen these guys scream and foam at the mouth for months on end, till they exhausted that pool of pent up hostility, walking time bombs is what they are. The facilitys to correctly deal with this today are seriously lacking, and these individuals are not treated and likely incarcerated.

I mean realistically how are you going to deal with 20 years of pent up hostility? By calmly discussing it? Medicating it? Its a real issue today. You need a combination of encounter then personal and group therapy. Groups are effective because they work through the philosophy of each other seeing there own behavior in the others, a mirror so to speak. Thus the groups run themselves, you just re-direct them when they lose focus, like Eric does with the threads.

Family and Couples issues through the dynamics of family issues is also very effective, well it could be. Some people just shouldn't be together either.
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"Eternal Father, I offer Thee the Most Precious Blood of Thy Divine Son, Jesus, in union with the Masses said throughout the world today, for all the Holy Souls in Purgatory, for sinners everywhere, for sinners in the universal church, those in my own home and within my family. Amen." St. Gertrude
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  #32  
Old Apr 30, '12, 7:57 am
Jesusismyfriend Jesusismyfriend is offline
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Default Re: How much can you trust psychology?

I know some things in psychology are valid. I just don't think a psych should view themselves as someone with all the knowledge and perfection. They cannot play God.
I know when you are dealing with a secular psych you can expect them not to believe in spirtual things. For example, the psych docs and nurses at the hospital say demons do not exist. I think they can be an issue, not necessarily for everyone with a mental disorder.
When I first became ill, I would hear voices inside of my head. They took opposing sides for and against Christ. Sounds like spiritual warfare to me. The docs prescribed meds that helped quiet the voices, but the opposition is definetely still there. And I worry I will never be "cured" as long as the doctors deny there are demons out there.
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  #33  
Old Apr 30, '12, 12:52 pm
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GaryTaylor GaryTaylor is offline
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Default Re: How much can you trust psychology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesusismyfriend View Post
I know some things in psychology are valid. I just don't think a psych should view themselves as someone with all the knowledge and perfection. They cannot play God.
I know when you are dealing with a secular psych you can expect them not to believe in spirtual things. For example, the psych docs and nurses at the hospital say demons do not exist. I think they can be an issue, not necessarily for everyone with a mental disorder.
When I first became ill, I would hear voices inside of my head. They took opposing sides for and against Christ. Sounds like spiritual warfare to me. The docs prescribed meds that helped quiet the voices, but the opposition is definetely still there. And I worry I will never be "cured" as long as the doctors deny there are demons out there.
Have you been in a psych unit at the "Catholic Hosp" for a few day evaluation in your area? Or is this all out-patient? In your area without doubt is also "Catholic Family Services" for out-patient health care. They do exist by you I assume? IMHO I would go this path if secular is a concern. Which as I suppose you see may be an issue. many in this field just think clinical. I get that.

Anyone who has been to all Catholic schools is clearly aware of this realm we live in, I assure you of this. That said many case's as yours "usually" fall in the area of, wrong meds, no-meds, or mis-medicating by not following multiple med schedules.

May not be your issue. My prayers are with you.
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"Eternal Father, I offer Thee the Most Precious Blood of Thy Divine Son, Jesus, in union with the Masses said throughout the world today, for all the Holy Souls in Purgatory, for sinners everywhere, for sinners in the universal church, those in my own home and within my family. Amen." St. Gertrude
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  #34  
Old May 1, '12, 1:19 pm
Robert Sock Robert Sock is offline
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Default Re: How much can you trust psychology?

The field of clinical psychology is filled with lies and deception. Truths get twisted for lies. Take self-esteem for example, I tend to think that self-esteem is evil. Think about it: self-esteem is introverted and caters to the self. Contrast that with simple esteem that is directed outward instead if inward; for example, esteem towards life, esteem towards friends, and esteem toward religion. This is what it means to be a true extrovert.

Want emotionally stable individuals; promote high esteem as opposed to high self-esteem.

The media, of course, is extreme with self-esteem, and psychologists will tell you that self-esteem is very healthy and necessary for proper development. I say hogwash! In psychology, if someone is having problems, self-esteem is the first place psychologist look. Raise self-esteem and you will diminish negative behaviors. The problem is that we are addicted to self-esteem. Let something bad happen to self-esteem and look out, the individual crashes emotionally. Self-esteem leads to pride and other sins; esteem leads to LOVE and other virtues.
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  #35  
Old May 1, '12, 1:29 pm
CopticChristian CopticChristian is offline
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Default Re: How much can you trust psychology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Sock View Post
The field of clinical psychology is filled with lies and deception. Truths get twisted for lies. Take self-esteem for example, I tend to think that self-esteem is evil. Think about it: self-esteem is introverted and caters to the self. Contrast that with simple esteem that is directed outward instead if inward; for example, esteem towards life, esteem towards friends, and esteem toward religion. This is what it means to be a true extrovert.

Want emotionally stable individuals; promote high esteem as opposed to high self-esteem.

The media, of course, is extreme with self-esteem, and psychologists will tell you that self-esteem is very healthy and necessary for proper development. I say hogwash! In psychology, if someone is having problems, self-esteem is the first place psychologist look. Raise self-esteem and you will diminish negative behaviors. The problem is that we are addicted to self-esteem. Let something bad happen to self-esteem and look out, the individual crashes emotionally. Self-esteem leads to pride and other sins; esteem leads to LOVE and other virtues.
Robert,

I am going to disagree with you here. Love self. Love neighbor. There are people that do not regard themselves as worthy of love. To love yourself you must recognize your inherent value. See what love the Father has that he calls us to be children of God and so we are. To value yourself as a child of God is part of self esteem that allows you to regard others as yourself.

It depends on how you spin "self esteem". There is nothing inherently wrong with this notion.
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  #36  
Old May 1, '12, 2:18 pm
AlanFromWichita AlanFromWichita is offline
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Default Re: How much can you trust psychology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesusismyfriend View Post
And I think psychology does stress too much that a certain symptom links a person to an illness.
Bingo! That's exactly the problem. They were taught to be "objective" and "unbiased" so the new ones especially like the darned interns in the psych ward, basically go down a checklist if if you get more than 6 checks in this column, you are schizophrenic. If you get more then 5 in that column, you are manic. It's how they do it with lab rats. They cannot comprehend a word you say so if you ask them why they're asking, they'll write, "refused to answer," and up your medication.

I have a great psychiatrist who know that only symptoms, not root causes, can be treated with medication. So he refrains from a label. If I'm manic, I get tranquilizers to sleep and maybe antipsychotics. If I'm overly anxious he gives me something that calms me down.

He looks at medicine like a cast on a leg. It only helps hold a person together; the cast, nor the psychiatric medicine, actually does the healing. (Healing is from the Holy Spirit.)

Quote:
I guess what I mean is we are humans who cannot understand everything that goes on in the mind of other people. So is becoming too interested in psychology safe? Some psychiatrists believe themselves to be infallible, and is that a good thing? And where does this infalliability or wisdom come from?
I heard an excellent lecture on the infallibility of "important" psychiatrists. It's a bunch of baloney. They just do what they can to help keep social order through control of "deviants" of behavior for a high amount of money.

The ones that are wise are the ones who listen and respond to your questions. The ones who don't mind explaining why they're giving you this medicine and not that, and how to know if something is wrong and we need to call him. Our psychiatrist is available for emergencies, though we never abuse it, by pager service. He will call us back in two minutes on a Sunday afternoon and based on what we tell him, he will give us instructions what to take tonight and when to come into his office or even call a prescription out for us.

I don't know how many of those kind of psychiatrists there are, that are accepting new patients.

Alan
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  #37  
Old May 1, '12, 4:03 pm
Robert Sock Robert Sock is offline
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Default Re: How much can you trust psychology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CopticChristian View Post
Robert,

I am going to disagree with you here. Love self. Love neighbor. There are people that do not regard themselves as worthy of love. To love yourself you must recognize your inherent value. See what love the Father has that he calls us to be children of God and so we are. To value yourself as a child of God is part of self esteem that allows you to regard others as yourself.

It depends on how you spin "self esteem". There is nothing inherently wrong with this notion.
You sound indoctrinated by psychologists who say that self-esteem is good. It isn't.

Another example, look at how many times love is mentioned in psychology and compare that to the amount of LOVE in the NT. Follow Love and you will see that short-comings characteristic in psychology. Don't trust anything in the media that lacks LOVE.
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‘And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.'
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  #38  
Old May 1, '12, 4:32 pm
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GaryTaylor GaryTaylor is offline
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Default Re: How much can you trust psychology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Sock View Post
The field of clinical psychology is filled with lies and deception. Truths get twisted for lies. Take self-esteem for example, I tend to think that self-esteem is evil. Think about it: self-esteem is introverted and caters to the self. Contrast that with simple esteem that is directed outward instead if inward; for example, esteem towards life, esteem towards friends, and esteem toward religion. This is what it means to be a true extrovert.

Want emotionally stable individuals; promote high esteem as opposed to high self-esteem.

The media, of course, is extreme with self-esteem, and psychologists will tell you that self-esteem is very healthy and necessary for proper development. I say hogwash! In psychology, if someone is having problems, self-esteem is the first place psychologist look. Raise self-esteem and you will diminish negative behaviors. The problem is that we are addicted to self-esteem. Let something bad happen to self-esteem and look out, the individual crashes emotionally. Self-esteem leads to pride and other sins; esteem leads to LOVE and other virtues.
I'll have to disagree Robert. Not sure how you conclude this. Why in the world would someone want to twist truth to a lie, who is actually trying to help you? In fact as I described above its exactly opposite. Is this the opinion of an extravert?

Self Esteem is what our unconscious believes to be true about how worthy, lovable, valuable, capable we are..simply worded. Course from there its a deep sea diving class.

The question is HOW did you get to the point of sitting in a clinic regardless of high or low self esteem. How does one arrive at that point. Well,some are rescued, others realize something just isn't right, but can't pin it down. Others reluctant participants in there own well being, for whatever reason, court pressure etc.

Image may well play a factor simply because you may really believe you actually are the image you created and look at daily in the mirror. In other words your living a lie, and I do agree you probly will not want to hear the truth. I'm sure most of the Hells Angels MC really believe they "are" that image for example. They have me convinced anyway. But are they?

We are talking the apparent result of a total emotional and motivational state in the present moment, which is a result of individual feelings dealt with in a productive manner moment by moment, or not, thought by throught. However you surpassed the first steps and have the process in reverse.

What Self Esteem did Jesus have for example? A King taking on the presence of a Servant, how did he behave? He didn't say, come on guys the drinks are me tonight because I'm king? Lets head to Babylon?

If your basing your conclusion on Self Esteem, what about Low Self Esteem? Well lets look at both.

My point is obviously high self esteem doesn't diminish negative behavior, may well be a factor in it. Easy situation to see above, the "I earned the right to behave this way" "I'm doing so great, I 'deserve' to break the rules a 'little' bit" "I earned this right, and feel so good about myself, I'm going out and [fill in the folly]" Everyone knows this individual now don't we? They are so full of themself they actually believe "somehow" their presence we are so graced with is of more value than anothers. And they do not have to be an extravert. If fact I would say an introvert who thinks as such is even more dangerous.

The exercise is to challenge the thoughts in your head seperated from the feelings understood moment by moment. The process is to be able to "identify" exactly how you feel at all time and understand where these feelings are coming from. So called "normal" people of the world do this without thought. You probly do it without thought which is why you don't see the process. I did it without thought once upon a time.

Ok, then you state; "Want emotionally stable individuals; promote high esteem as opposed to high self-esteem" Ok, lets look at that.

So then, what do you do with the 13 yo young girl just dropped off at your office, just raped and hospitalized, abused for years, who's sitting legs crossed, arms folded, can't but help stair at the floor and simply can't look up, and, as you talk you realize she derives "good feelings" from cutting herself now and again "just a little" cause it "feels good". See how quickly senerios change.

Whats the cure, a shot of High Self Esteem? Wheres that precribed at?

You don't wind up in someones office by "chance" one day. Obviously there's a reason your sitting is "anothers" chair.

The problem is this, when I say how do you feel? And you truly do not know. That blank look appears which equates to "lost". Often the problem resides in this realm. High self-esteem and success to not equate to emotionally stable individuals. Course again we would have to define success. There resides many different lifestyles you may find appauling.

Talking about what is going on with yourself is never going to hurt you. Though it may seem like its pulling teeth.
__________________


"Eternal Father, I offer Thee the Most Precious Blood of Thy Divine Son, Jesus, in union with the Masses said throughout the world today, for all the Holy Souls in Purgatory, for sinners everywhere, for sinners in the universal church, those in my own home and within my family. Amen." St. Gertrude
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  #39  
Old May 1, '12, 5:18 pm
AlanFromWichita AlanFromWichita is offline
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Default Re: How much can you trust psychology?

If you want proper self-esteem, seek God-esteem instead and you will get there a lifetime faster.

Alan
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  #40  
Old May 1, '12, 5:40 pm
Robert Sock Robert Sock is offline
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Default Re: How much can you trust psychology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanFromWichita View Post
If you want proper self-esteem, seek God-esteem instead and you will get there a lifetime faster.

Alan
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‘And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.'
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  #41  
Old May 1, '12, 5:49 pm
Robert Sock Robert Sock is offline
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Default Re: How much can you trust psychology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryTaylor View Post
I'll have to disagree Robert. Not sure how you conclude this. Why in the world would someone want to twist truth to a lie, who is actually trying to help you? In fact as I described above its exactly opposite. Is this the opinion of an extravert?

Self Esteem is what our unconscious believes to be true about how worthy, lovable, valuable, capable we are..simply worded. Course from there its a deep sea diving class.

The question is HOW did you get to the point of sitting in a clinic regardless of high or low self esteem. How does one arrive at that point. Well,some are rescued, others realize something just isn't right, but can't pin it down. Others reluctant participants in there own well being, for whatever reason, court pressure etc.

Image may well play a factor simply because you may really believe you actually are the image you created and look at daily in the mirror. In other words your living a lie, and I do agree you probly will not want to hear the truth. I'm sure most of the Hells Angels MC really believe they "are" that image for example. They have me convinced anyway. But are they?

We are talking the apparent result of a total emotional and motivational state in the present moment, which is a result of individual feelings dealt with in a productive manner moment by moment, or not, thought by throught. However you surpassed the first steps and have the process in reverse.

What Self Esteem did Jesus have for example? A King taking on the presence of a Servant, how did he behave? He didn't say, come on guys the drinks are me tonight because I'm king? Lets head to Babylon?

If your basing your conclusion on Self Esteem, what about Low Self Esteem? Well lets look at both.

My point is obviously high self esteem doesn't diminish negative behavior, may well be a factor in it. Easy situation to see above, the "I earned the right to behave this way" "I'm doing so great, I 'deserve' to break the rules a 'little' bit" "I earned this right, and feel so good about myself, I'm going out and [fill in the folly]" Everyone knows this individual now don't we? They are so full of themself they actually believe "somehow" their presence we are so graced with is of more value than anothers. And they do not have to be an extravert. If fact I would say an introvert who thinks as such is even more dangerous.

The exercise is to challenge the thoughts in your head seperated from the feelings understood moment by moment. The process is to be able to "identify" exactly how you feel at all time and understand where these feelings are coming from. So called "normal" people of the world do this without thought. You probly do it without thought which is why you don't see the process. I did it without thought once upon a time.

Ok, then you state; "Want emotionally stable individuals; promote high esteem as opposed to high self-esteem" Ok, lets look at that.

So then, what do you do with the 13 yo young girl just dropped off at your office, just raped and hospitalized, abused for years, who's sitting legs crossed, arms folded, can't but help stair at the floor and simply can't look up, and, as you talk you realize she derives "good feelings" from cutting herself now and again "just a little" cause it "feels good". See how quickly senerios change.

Whats the cure, a shot of High Self Esteem? Wheres that precribed at?

You don't wind up in someones office by "chance" one day. Obviously there's a reason your sitting is "anothers" chair.

The problem is this, when I say how do you feel? And you truly do not know. That blank look appears which equates to "lost". Often the problem resides in this realm. High self-esteem and success to not equate to emotionally stable individuals. Course again we would have to define success. There resides many different lifestyles you may find appauling.

Talking about what is going on with yourself is never going to hurt you. Though it may seem like its pulling teeth.
My observation are in clinical psychology and I find a great reliance on self-esteem. They will defend it to no end. Again, my contention is that certain types of esteem are superior to self-esteem. To have high self-esteem is to be a true introvert.
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Mark 12:30
‘And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.'
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  #42  
Old May 1, '12, 6:07 pm
meltzerboy meltzerboy is offline
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Default Re: How much can you trust psychology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Sock View Post
The field of clinical psychology is filled with lies and deception. Truths get twisted for lies. Take self-esteem for example, I tend to think that self-esteem is evil. Think about it: self-esteem is introverted and caters to the self. Contrast that with simple esteem that is directed outward instead if inward; for example, esteem towards life, esteem towards friends, and esteem toward religion. This is what it means to be a true extrovert.

Want emotionally stable individuals; promote high esteem as opposed to high self-esteem.

The media, of course, is extreme with self-esteem, and psychologists will tell you that self-esteem is very healthy and necessary for proper development. I say hogwash! In psychology, if someone is having problems, self-esteem is the first place psychologist look. Raise self-esteem and you will diminish negative behaviors. The problem is that we are addicted to self-esteem. Let something bad happen to self-esteem and look out, the individual crashes emotionally. Self-esteem leads to pride and other sins; esteem leads to LOVE and other virtues.
Robert, why does self-esteem have to be considered in an all-or-none fashion? I think a certain level of self-esteem is necessary; but, on the other hand, exaggerated self-esteem may be harmful. One of the alternative meanings of self-esteem is our ability to evaluate honestly both our strengths and our weaknesses. People who cannot do this, because they exaggerate either their weaknesses or their strengths, have, according to this definition, low self-esteem. By contrast, people who are able to measure accurately both their strengths and their weaknesses have high self-esteem. I think the latter is essential to psychological well-being.
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  #43  
Old May 1, '12, 6:16 pm
AlanFromWichita AlanFromWichita is offline
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Default Re: How much can you trust psychology?

I think "self-esteem" is too vague a term for most uses, because it can connote too wide a range of things to really be something that can be discussed independent of context.

From thesaurus.com, we have these synonyms:

definition: pride

synonyms: amour propre, conceit, confidence, dignity, egotism, morale, narcissism, self-assurance, self-content, self-regard, self-respect, self-satisfaction, vanity, worth

Some of these things are considered good things, some bad. You can't just use the term without significant context or narrowed definition. We argue about words all the time and about meaning too infrequently.


Alan
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  #44  
Old May 1, '12, 6:54 pm
Robert Sock Robert Sock is offline
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Default Re: How much can you trust psychology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by meltzerboy View Post
Robert, why does self-esteem have to be considered in an all-or-none fashion? I think a certain level of self-esteem is necessary; but, on the other hand, exaggerated self-esteem may be harmful. One of the alternative meanings of self-esteem is our ability to evaluate honestly both our strengths and our weaknesses. People who cannot do this, because they exaggerate either their weaknesses or their strengths, have, according to this definition, low self-esteem. By contrast, people who are able to measure accurately both their strengths and their weaknesses have high self-esteem. I think the latter is essential to psychological well-being.
Hi;
I believe that it is maladaptive to measure oneself relative to others. I contend that with proper esteem, one does not need self-esteem in order to be mentally healthy.

I wish I could say I came about this conclusion by "science," but it was not. I merely came about this through personal observation. I realize I'm the underdog in terms as taking on APA and that most every clinical psychologist will argue otherwise. Mine is a religious journey and as such, it allows me to see self-esteem and esteem in a different light.

Self-esteem is considered by some to be the quick fix in clinical counseling. Whatever the problem, raise their self-esteem and you will lower "neurotic" symptoms. But the fix is usually short-lived and the patient soon returns.

Self-esteem is also harmful because it too easily turns to pride.
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‘And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.'
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  #45  
Old May 1, '12, 7:02 pm
graciew graciew is offline
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Default Re: How much can you trust psychology?

All in all I find that a child or adult with a low overall appraisal of what they are worth,do not perform in a balanced way and suffer as well.
I believe that being/feeling worthy as children of God,if you wish,is a healthy stand.
My experience with psychologists has been more than valuable,and has at all times been aligned with my beliefs.
So I do not understand why there is so much issue with psychologists,unless somebody has had a bad experience.They can be very helpful with your everyday life as in crisis.
Can´t see why prayer has to do away with therapy or even medicine when it is necessary.Sounds even as defying to me.
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8257Meet and talk,talk talk
Last by: GLam8833
5018CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: UpUpAndAway
4345Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
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4029OCD/Scrupulosity Group
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3834SOLITUDE
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3569Let's empty Purgatory
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3230Poems and Reflections
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3203Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: memphian
3128Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: grateful_child
3048For seniors and shut- ins
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