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  #316  
Old May 1, '12, 9:47 pm
JharekCarnelian JharekCarnelian is offline
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Default Re: Why do some Catholics support legal abortion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adolphus WC View Post
It is about who "owns" the womb. The woman or the fetus. When the fetus becomes viable he can be evicted and still have a life.
Evicting infants from the womb when they are viable. I can see the enemy has been loaning his thesaurus again.
  #317  
Old May 2, '12, 2:32 am
vz71 vz71 is offline
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Default Re: Why do some Catholics support legal abortion?

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Originally Posted by Adolphus WC View Post
I agree, but our technology as it stands it is possible, although unlikely to keep a 23 week old fetus alive outside the womb. Did you look at the link? It's about premature births.
So it is only a human if we have the science necessary to keep it alive in an environment it is not supposed to be in?

That is what this finally boils down to.
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  #318  
Old May 2, '12, 2:33 am
vz71 vz71 is offline
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Default Re: Why do some Catholics support legal abortion?

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Originally Posted by Adolphus WC View Post
It is about who "owns" the womb.
That's easy.
God.
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  #319  
Old May 2, '12, 5:12 am
Adolphus WC Adolphus WC is offline
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Default Re: Why do some Catholics support legal abortion?

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Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian View Post
Evicting infants from the womb when they are viable. I can see the enemy has been loaning his thesaurus again.
All hyperbole aside that is what it comes down to - "I will not serve" - Catholics have their belief in how to serve God. Others have other ideas, some don't believe at all.

Women who don't believe as Catholics do feel they are being forced to serve, one a fetus they don't want to care for. Or a God that they don't already serve.

Again we aren't a theocracy where people are forced to follow a religion.

So how to we accommodate all so that society may function?

What I've heard here is there is no accommodation - ever, period end of discussion. From a Catholic perspective I see the that.

From a secular perspective it's not so clear. We have once segment of the population that will never have abortions. No one should force them to have them or perform them.

For most that suffices as accommodation for Catholics.

So how do we accommodate the other segment of the population that don't share Catholic beliefs?

That is were viability comes in. It is the point of no return. It is the point that people that will and care for a child are able to. A child that the mother wants nothing to do with. As horrible as that concept is, there are people that don't want the child. We as a free society can not force them. They will not serve.

That is the debate as I see it. I can continue to be a sounding board to bounce the Catholic view off of but we all know what the Church's position is.
  #320  
Old May 2, '12, 5:19 am
JharekCarnelian JharekCarnelian is offline
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Default Re: Why do some Catholics support legal abortion?

All serve God ultimately. I was not been hyperbolic and I note you have skipped over the fact that banning abortion equals a theocracy is a false dilemma.
  #321  
Old May 2, '12, 5:26 am
Adolphus WC Adolphus WC is offline
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Default Re: Why do some Catholics support legal abortion?

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Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian View Post
All serve God ultimately. I was not been hyperbolic and I note you have skipped over the fact that banning abortion equals a theocracy is a false dilemma.
I didn't skip over it at all. You keep stating the Catholic position as if it is universally held. It is obviously not. The Catholic postion can't be forced on a population against their will. If it is, it is a theocracy.
  #322  
Old May 2, '12, 5:31 am
JharekCarnelian JharekCarnelian is offline
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Default Re: Why do some Catholics support legal abortion?

So before 1973 the USA was if not an outright theocracy at least close to been one?
  #323  
Old May 2, '12, 5:36 am
Adolphus WC Adolphus WC is offline
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Default Re: Why do some Catholics support legal abortion?

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Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian View Post
So before 1973 the USA was if not an outright theocracy at least close to been one?
No, more held the Catholic view point then. People make laws for themselves.

Is this so hard to see? Opinions change. The world is more secular. Contriception used to be illegal. Fornication used to be illegal. Inter racial marriage used to be illegal. Homosexuality used be illegal. They're not now. People have changed their view point, so the laws reflect that.
  #324  
Old May 2, '12, 6:03 am
vz71 vz71 is offline
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Default Re: Why do some Catholics support legal abortion?

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Originally Posted by Adolphus WC View Post
Opinions change.
Facts don't.
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  #325  
Old May 2, '12, 6:15 am
Adolphus WC Adolphus WC is offline
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Default Re: Why do some Catholics support legal abortion?

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Originally Posted by vz71 View Post
Facts don't.
Our understanding and interpretation of the facts do.
  #326  
Old May 2, '12, 6:16 am
Bookcat Bookcat is offline
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Default Re: Why do some Catholics support legal abortion?

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Originally Posted by Adolphus WC View Post
All hyperbole aside that is what it comes down to - "I will not serve" - Catholics have their belief in how to serve God. Others have other ideas, some don't believe at all.
Right. You have some keen insight there with that first line.

"I will not serve". Non serviam.

That is by the way said to be the cry of the Devil.

Yes such puts it very well.

One motto for the culture of death.

Fitting for such to take a motto from the Devil.

Where as Christians instead say -- Serviam!

I will serve!

It is Love.

I will love.....I will love life ...I will be a Mother for that is what I am now.

This is my Child. He is a living child and I am his Mother and a Mother loves her child.

But one need not be a Christian -- the understanding and love for Motherhood and little babies is something to be found across religions --even among those who profess none. It is a human recognition and human attitude inscribed in our nature.
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  #327  
Old May 2, '12, 6:17 am
vz71 vz71 is offline
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Default Re: Why do some Catholics support legal abortion?

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Originally Posted by Adolphus WC View Post
Our understanding and interpretation of the facts do.
The fact of human life from conception has been understood for years now.
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  #328  
Old May 2, '12, 6:25 am
Adolphus WC Adolphus WC is offline
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Default Re: Why do some Catholics support legal abortion?

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Originally Posted by Bookcat View Post
Right. You have some keen insight there with that first line.

"I will not serve". Non serviam.

That is by the way said to be the cry of the Devil.

Yes such puts it very well.

One motto for the culture of death.

Fitting for such to take a motto from the Devil.

Where as Christians instead say -- Serviam!

I will serve!

It is Love.

I will love.....I will love life ...I will be a Mother for that is what I am now.

This is my Child. He is a living child and I am his Mother and a Mother loves her child.

But one need not be a Christian -- the understanding and love for Motherhood and little babies is something to be found across religions --even among those who profess none. It is a human recognition and human attitude inscribed in our nature.
That's why I used the phrase. There are more than Christians in our Country. There are more than theists in our country. They do not serve. They are citizens just as much as those that do.
  #329  
Old May 2, '12, 6:34 am
fix fix is offline
 
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Default Re: Why do some Catholics support legal abortion?

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Originally Posted by Adolphus WC View Post
They are able to gestate because of the woman allowing it.
Yes, just as killers allow all of us to live until they decide otherwise. That much is evident.

Quote:
She could act contrary to the well being of the child if it is an unwelcome guest.
Unwelcome? Is death now a solution for being "unwelcome"? Does that not sound a tad sociopathic?

Quote:
Drinking alcohol, smoking tobacco, or taking other drugs. I'm not saying it's moral but it is a factor. A woman has to accept her new inhabitant. So that is the legal not moral question. Does the woman have a right to deny another being to inhabit her body?
No, there is no "right" to kill innocent people. Can you explain why killing innocents is justified other than convenience?
  #330  
Old May 2, '12, 6:34 am
Bookcat Bookcat is offline
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Default Re: Why do some Catholics support legal abortion?

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Originally Posted by Adolphus WC View Post
Again we aren't a theocracy where people are forced to follow a religion.



.
Strawman

There is not question of a theocracy here.

Not a question of one religion or another here. It is the reality of a woman being pregnant with a new human being -- a little one who is to be loved by his Mother (something across religions and even seen among those who proclaim to be atheists) not killed by her.
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