Catholic FAQ


Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #16  
Old May 2, '12, 11:54 am
steve b steve b is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 27, 2004
Posts: 7,736
Religion: Cradle Catholic
Default Re: No Salvation Outside the Church, Cantate Domino, and Sacred Tradition: A Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fone Bone 2001 View Post
In short, the answer is that nowhere did the Fathers of Florence - that is the context of Cantate Domino - define what it means to be "outside the ecclesiastical unity" of the Catholic Church.

The article Steve linked to demonstrates that there is, in fact, a difference between "being inside the Catholic Church" and "being a visible member of the Catholic Church." The former is absolutely necessary for salvation, while the necessity of the latter for salvation is not absolute.

As the article puts it:



That last assertion, then, is the key: the maxim “outside the Church there is no salvation” does not imply, as it seems to at first sight, that “only inside the Church is there salvation”.

In support of this argument, Harrison takes another look at the quote from Cantate Domino and basically asks, "What about catechumens?"

They have not yet been received into the Church; indeed, they've not yet received any Sacraments. They are not yet "members of the Church," yet they're not "outside" the Church either. Conspicuously, Cantate Domino does not list "catechumens" in its list of people who cannot benefit from grace. It lists, rather:

(1) Pagans
(2) Jews
(3) Heretics
(4) Schismatics

The fact that "catechumens" are omitted suggests that the document does not intend to exclude from them the possibility of salvation. Since they are not yet members of the Church, therefore, it follows even by the standards of Cantate Domino itself that "visible membership in the Church" is not necessarily a prerequisite for salvation.

Likewise with Unam Sanctam: one can be "subject to the Roman Pontiff" in other ways than visible membership in the Church. Say someone, if he knew of the papacy, would desire to submit to the pope. It seems Tradition says that can be sufficient.

Harrison makes this very point in this article: if in danger of death, it is lawful to baptize someone even if they only know about and profess (1) the Trinity and (2) the Incarnation. Such a baptized person on his deathbed would certainly be "subject to the Roman Pontiff" without knowing it.

In short, I now feel I know how Cantate Domino fits within Sacred Tradition.

If anyone is still confused or uncertain, then for the sake of context and comprehensiveness I wholeheartedly urge you to read the entirety of Harrison's article.

How does everyone else feel? Are you satisfied by Harrison's explanation?
I'm glad it helped.

in addition to what you wrote here are some other points he makes

http://www.rtforum.org/lt/lt149.html

being truly separated from the Church of Christ – being outside her in the sense that excludes from salvation – is essentially an inner spiritual condition (though of course it can be outwardly manifested with words and deeds).

For example, If asked Are you a (Roman Catholic?”)


For some who answer ‘Yes’, even without consciously lying, will in God’s sight and in objective reality be outside the Church, namely, those who have lost supernatural faith, or who refuse to allow papal authority any impact on their own behavior, but who still identify to some extent with Catholicism for merely natural reasons (social convenience, family or cultural tradition, nostalgia, etc.). Conversely, some of those who truthfully answer ‘No’ to our opinion poll question will not really be outside the Catholic Church. Some of these explicit nay-sayers, unbeknown to themselves, will actually be in porticu Ecclesiae rather than extra Ecclesiam.


2 sufficient conditions for extra Ecclesiam
· Lack of (whether culpable or inculpable) supernatural faith
· An explicit and culpable will not to be subject to the Roman Pontiff

1 necessary condition for extra Ecclesiam
· Lack of supernatural grace

My only exception is his use of "Roman". As we know, ALL rites in the Catholic Church are equal in dignity. I suspect that's what he ultimately meant
__________________
To doubt is the greatest insult to the Divinity.[St Padre Pio]

Last edited by steve b; May 2, '12 at 12:09 pm.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
8443Meet and talk,talk talk
Last by: jerrythetrucker
5137CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: tawny
4423Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: DesertSister62
4037OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: eschator83
3863SOLITUDE
Last by: beth40n2
3729Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: RJB
3311Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: grateful_child
3279Poems and Reflections
Last by: PathWalker
3222Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: 4elise
3107For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: flower lady



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 9:24 pm.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2014, Catholic Answers.