Really turned off by Roman Catholic mass attended

[roveau]

Originally Posted by nevadairenaeus

The Our Father prayer being sung at Mass? Is that common? My experience is limited, but I haven't seen that before. Liturgical abuses were a real stumbling block for me before my conversion. I hope they are only a long drawn out aftershock of Vatican II, and will disappear with time. I think the Church, especially under our current Pope, is trying to remedy this problem........................

Yes, it's quite proper at some Masses to sing the Our Father. For example, if you follow the New Roman Missal, there is an example on page 698 (with the music). You wouldn't be tapping your feet to it though. I'm pretty sure I have heard this version several times sung at St Peter's (Vatican) via broadcasts. If the Mass is specifically aimed at the younger ones I don't see a problem with more up-beat music versions. I think clapping during the the Mass takes away the contemplative mood but I am not certain that it is totally banned.

Really, if you have a serious complaint against your priest, the proper procedure is to see him first about it in all friendliness. The New Testament as well as common sense supports this. The bishop is a busy man. If you are not satisfied with the response, then write to your bishop in all humility.

[Fone Bone 2001]

Originally Posted by nevadairenaeus

The Our Father prayer being sung at Mass? Is that common? My experience is limited, but I haven't seen that before. Liturgical abuses were a real stumbling block for me before my conversion. I hope they are only a long drawn out aftershock of Vatican II, and will disappear with time. I think the Church, especially under our current Pope, is trying to remedy this problem.

I agree, but the problem in this case wasn't that the Lord's Prayer was being sung. It is entirely licit for the Lord's Prayer to be chanted or sung in the Mass; what the OP found so scandalous was that the music used for it sounded like a showtune.

Many parts of the Mass can be sung or chanted. I don't think I've ever been to a Mass in which we chanted the Nicene Creed, but that can be sung or chanted, too.

[Fone Bone 2001]

Originally Posted by kimon

Thank you all for the responses! The discussion has been very helpful.

I'm glad.

Originally Posted by kimon

I don't know if I would call my possible (it's not a done deal yet) coming into communion with Rome a "conversion". If I were anything other than Orthodox, I would agree with the term.

What you just said makes a lot of sense. One Orthodox person I know who entered the Catholic Church calls his decision a "translation" rather than a "conversion," and you'll find that many eastern Catholics prefer to style themselves "Orthodox in communion with Rome." To me, that makes perfect sense, because you wouldn't be abandoning Orthodoxy by entering into communion with Rome.

Originally Posted by kimon

I understand the practicality of finding the particular church that offers Mass in a more traditional way. However, what does the fact that 3 out of the 4 churches I've gone to, each in a different parish, have had this (forgive the strong word) protestant type Mass, mean for the Church in the US? I've been to Orthodox Divine Liturgies in multiple countries and multiple parishes within each country and they've all been the same. Why not with the Latin Rite?

In the United States (I live there, too), the Latin Catholic parishes are inconsistent in this way. I believe that we are subtly moving toward a more traditional way of celebrating Mass; however, you are correct that right now, one often finds what you have found.

We're working on it.

Originally Posted by kimon

I'm assuming that the Eastern Rite Churches in communion with Rome are more consistent.

You are correct. I've been to a couple Byzantine Rite Catholic parishes in my time; I've been to the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil the Great.

If you go to an eastern Catholic church of the Byzantine Rite, I guarantee you it will be extremely familiar to what you know as an Eastern Orthodox Christian. There will, of course, be a few differences - for instance, and most obviously, they commemorate the pope of Rome in their diptychs.

Originally Posted by kimon

Or is it just a carry-over bias on my side?

No, I don't think it's bias; I think you're right. Many Roman Rite Masses in the United States have that unfortunately secular or Protestant feel to them. As I said above, we're working on it, but you're not wrong.

Originally Posted by kimon

I might feel more comfortable with the form of an Eastern Rite Church but, is that a solution or is it masking an issue?

No, it's not just masking the issue or treating the symptom. You as an individual do not have an obligation (let alone the power) to fix the way the Roman Rite Mass is offered in countries like the U.S.

Perhaps it would be inappropriate of someone to join an eastern Catholic church if their only reason were dislike of the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite, but that would not be the principal reason you'd be in an eastern Catholic church: rather, the principal reason you'd be in an eastern Catholic church is that people who join the Catholic Church are by default enrolled in the self-governing church that most closely corresponds to their church of origin. So you would be in a Catholic church that uses the Byzantine Rite.

[garyo49]

Originally Posted by kimon

(this forum seemed the most appropriate; mods, please move if I was wrong)

Since I have been thinking about coming into communion with Rome for a while now, I've been going to mass regularly at a Catholic church in my local parish. Being Greek Orthodox, I'm was really surprised with the girl altar servers, choir, modern music (I really can't stand the "Our Father" sung like a Top 40s hit on the radio), etc. etc. However, I've been dealing with it.

Yesterday, I go to a mass at a different parish and boy was that a shocker! Not only did they have all the above (and their own version of the "Our Father" tune) they were even applauding!

The priest said "Let's give a round of applause for the presence of the Lord".

I felt like I was in a televangelist's mega church.

As a Greek Orthodox contemplating communion with Rome, is this the kind of Mass I should expect? Or have I just been exposed to so called "liberal" parishes?

Every time I read something like this it nearly breaks my heart. We hear so many stories like this, but I am still convinced that it isn't the norm. The girl alter servers, sadly yes. When I came to my parish four years ago they applauded for everything and it nearly ruined it for me. In Aug. 2010 we got a new pastor. Right from the begining he started "teaching" us. He taught us what was appropriate at Mass. In our weekly buletin there appeared an insert titled "10 sins committed while attending Mass every Sunday". For example; inappropriate dress, arriving late and leaving early, chewing gum, unnecessary talking in the church especially before and after Mass etc.

At first I thought it would offend some, and it probably did. But, he has made such a difference and I love him for it. His name is Father Martin, a special priest from Mexico. BTW we're down to only four clappers after Mass now.

[Khalid]

I almost put in my original post in this thread, that if one can find an ethnic parish (i.e. Latino), it's almost always more conservative as well (the Mexican, Latino American, and Spanish churches are truly unrivalled by anything in Western Christendom for beauty of architecture, as well), but the Mass is often not celebrated in English (or is celebrated in both English and Spanish in the one local Latino parish; I don't know what rubric this falls under). I suppose the same occurs if you get a Latino priest in an otherwise liberal parish.

Imagine one of those posters with the Latino man holding a sign, "No Mexicans, No Burritos" on it, captioned:

"Immigration: it keeps the Church honest."

[catholicanne]

Originally Posted by kimon

(this forum seemed the most appropriate; mods, please move if I was wrong)

Since I have been thinking about coming into communion with Rome for a while now, I've been going to mass regularly at a Catholic church in my local parish. Being Greek Orthodox, I'm was really surprised with the girl altar servers, choir, modern music (I really can't stand the "Our Father" sung like a Top 40s hit on the radio), etc. etc. However, I've been dealing with it.

Yesterday, I go to a mass at a different parish and boy was that a shocker! Not only did they have all the above (and their own version of the "Our Father" tune) they were even applauding!

The priest said "Let's give a round of applause for the presence of the Lord".

I felt like I was in a televangelist's mega church.

As a Greek Orthodox contemplating communion with Rome, is this the kind of Mass I should expect? Or have I just been exposed to so called "liberal" parishes?

Wow.

Just wow.

I would have run screaming for the hills.

Thank you, Jesus, for leading me to a nice normal conservative church.

[John of Patmos]

God bless you for considering union with Rome. I too would suggest maybe a visit to the EC parish. There's one near me that is more traditional than the nearest GO Church (EC-like 6 small pews; GO-pews, and lots of um!!)

[Geist]

Originally Posted by kimon

Yesterday, I go to a mass at a different parish and boy was that a shocker! Not only did they have all the above (and their own version of the "Our Father" tune) they were even applauding!

The priest said "Let's give a round of applause for the presence of the Lord".

I'm actually embarrassed for you having been there.

Aping (best word for it) the nonsense of megachurches is only going to repulse people seeking an authentic spiritual experience in the Mass.

Our parish is admittedly very 70's I guess(no kneelers, girl servers, hands held during the Our Father) but it does so gracefully and lovingly. I have a hunch the parish priest is going to be a saint one day, so maybe thats why?

I commend you for not letting a bad experience chase you away. Many parishes do vary from one to another, so, if its feasible try another more suited to you.

[choliks]

I'm sorry you experienced that. I'm sure it's not the norm but the exception in the US (in other countries, local cultural expressions might be mistaken for Evangelical or Protestant influences).

I suggest you visit an Eastern Catholic Church. Your wife can even participate in the liturgy and the sacraments without a hitch.

[Pepband Mom]

Originally Posted by kimon

Since I'm not Roman Catholic, I don't think what I say would hold much weight with the Bishop.

Ran into this in the 80's; We have a visiting priest come into the Archdiocese more than once & we documented his heresy. He eventually got defrocked but took a couple years & lots of documentation from people.

When you see a no-no:

Write a letter to the priest & give him 2 weeks for his prompt reply.
If not satisfied, send respectful letter to the local Ordinary. The Bishop will have the opportunity to address the matter. the Bishop should acknowledge your letter; however if Bishop fails to resolve situation, send a very respectful cover letter with copy of letter to priest & letter to bishop & copies of their replies or lack of reply to the appropriate Congregation in Rome.

Been there, done that several times. Rome usually does not respond to you personally but I guarantee they will read your every word; they want to know what you have to say & they will assess the situation & go from there.

[Geaux_LSU]

Originally Posted by Geist

I'm actually embarrassed for you having been there.

Aping (best word for it) the nonsense of megachurches is only going to repulse people seeking an authentic spiritual experience in the Mass.

Our parish is admittedly very 70's I guess(no kneelers, girl servers, hands held during the Our Father) but it does so gracefully and lovingly. I have a hunch the parish priest is going to be a saint one day, so maybe thats why?

I commend you for not letting a bad experience chase you away. Many parishes do vary from one to another, so, if its feasible try another more suited to you.

How dare they clap for Jesus. Parishoners aren't supposed to be excited to be in God's presence! They're supposed to be distracted and ready to walk straight out the doors from the communion line, everyone knows that.

[LilyM]

Originally Posted by Geaux_LSU

How dare they clap for Jesus. Parishoners aren't supposed to be excited to be in God's presence! They're supposed to be distracted and ready to walk straight out the doors from the communion line, everyone knows that.

There are plenty of people I am excited to see. My parents, who I love dearly, for one. I certainly don't applaud them like rockstars whenever I enter their house though!

[haastiin]

"If you're Catholic and you know it, clap your hands!
If you're Catholic and you know it, clap your hands!
If you're Catholic and you know it, ...."

"Oh, wait! We're Catholics! We don't clap our hands!"

A little bit of Charismatic Catholic Commotion can shake you to the core if you've not been prepared for it. You can ask God to help you prepare for it so you'll understand it better, or you can ask God to help you find a place that is more suited to the disposition he built into you when he created you. Neither choice is the wrong choice. One will help you grow in a certain way and the other will help you grown in a certain different way. Only HE knows which is which.

But the folks who are finding Joy in that faith community have found something that holds them closer to God. You will find a faith community that helps you find yourself closer to God, and it will probably be a faith community more like that which nurtured your early faith.

Orthodoxy is a wonderful foundation for a rich, deep, and satisfying relationship with the Lord. Only our wise God could find ways to bring together people who love to clap and shout and sing and dance while worshiping, and he can do that with as much Grace and facility as he uses to bring together people who are deeply moved by a more staid spirituality.

God is big enough to be accessible to all kinds of people and all kinds of people's needs. In the Fourth Eucharistic prayer we hear, "Remember those who have died in the peace of Christ and all the dead whose faith is known to you alone." God knows your heart, and your heart knows him. He will either find room or make room for a way to get closer to you and to the unity you seek. God bless you for being willing to go out there and look for it!

[ByzCathCantor]

Originally Posted by haastiin

Orthodoxy is a wonderful foundation for a rich, deep, and satisfying relationship with the Lord.

It is, but the Orthodox don't dance during Divine Liturgy

[haastiin]

True. that would be ... unorthodox. Well said. I pray God will bless you with fullest joy in that Peace which surpasses all understanding.


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