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  #166  
Old May 2, '12, 1:35 pm
ringil ringil is offline
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Default Re: Pope Benedicts wishes for communicants

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Originally Posted by curlycool89 View Post
That's what I meant to clarify.

If you really want to take it too far, you'd want to use a pressurized room and is pass the air coming out of the room through a filter which could later be dealt with just in case any dust, err I mean bread particles that are so small you can't actually tell if it's bread or dead skin, gets caught. The filter could be ashed (burnt) and the ashes disposed of properly

Although then you have the problem of airborne contaminants such as methane or radon or asbestos (in old parishes maybe) or other particulate matter (even smaller then 2.5 micrometers which can get into your alveoli) possibly getting on the hosts or in the wine during the Mass. Therefore the air coming in should also be filtered. I guess we can only hold Mass in special pressurized medical or technology (such as computer chip manufacture) laboratories then to ensure no contamination happens.

I'm being sarcastic just in case anyone's wondering, but you could take this argument that far if you wanted to, especially when people want to argue that every little bit of bread and even the parts you can't see are still the Eucharist (and small enough particles could become airborne, that's not a joke). Or if people's desire to safeguard the Eucharist got way out of hand (appropriate measure should obviously be taken. The part about airborne contaminants is not a joke, it's a fact of life especially in the city).

I can take the example further if you'd like me to. The point is that the Eucharist (Real Presence) does not exist when you can't identify the species (bread or wine).

We can look at why we have the Eucharist. "The sacraments are efficacious signs of grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church, by which divine life is dispensed to us. [T]he visible rites by which the sacraments are celebrated signify and make present the graces proper to each sacrament." (CCC 1131). The Eucharist is Christ visible to us, if it is not visible then there's no sign of grace. The Real Presence is made present to us to physically see, but if we can't see it then what's the point?

When we baptize, we use flowing water. You can't use a little water droplet or beer or vinegar because you've lost the symbolism (baptism literally means to wash, sacramentally of course it means having original sin washed away).

When you have little pieces that you can't tell are bread, you can't tell it's the Eucharist like you can when you see bread (that has been consecrated).


I guess it's like "Beam me up Scotty" (which was never actually said in that exact way on Star Trek). Things that were never actually said that people are convinced was actually said and it's become part of pop culture.
I totally agree with your post. It's really a no-brainer.

And as an side note regading smells- if you can smell wine in the air- then wine is there- in the air. We don't believe that Christ's sacred body and Blood are dispersed into the air do we? Certainly not.
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  #167  
Old May 2, '12, 3:00 pm
EcceAgnusDei EcceAgnusDei is offline
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Default Re: Pope Benedicts wishes for communicants

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Originally Posted by curlycool89 View Post
I can take the example further if you'd like me to. The point is that the Eucharist (Real Presence) does not exist when you can't identify the species (bread or wine).

We can look at why we have the Eucharist. "The sacraments are efficacious signs of grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church, by which divine life is dispensed to us. [T]he visible rites by which the sacraments are celebrated signify and make present the graces proper to each sacrament." (CCC 1131). The Eucharist is Christ visible to us, if it is not visible then there's no sign of grace. The Real Presence is made present to us to physically see, but if we can't see it then what's the point?
To make the quote work as support of your argument, you have to equate "the graces" with "the Real Presence." However, there is a difference between the graces of the Eucharist and the Real Presence. For example, if someone communicates unworthily, they are indeed receiving the Real Presence of Our Lord, but they are not receive the graces of the Sacrament (quite the contrary!). The Real Presence is not a sign of grace, it is the Real Presence. It is Real, not a sign.

Quote:
When we baptize, we use flowing water. You can't use a little water droplet or beer or vinegar because you've lost the symbolism (baptism literally means to wash, sacramentally of course it means having original sin washed away).

When you have little pieces that you can't tell are bread, you can't tell it's the Eucharist like you can when you see bread (that has been consecrated).
You rightly point to the symbolism inherent in the baptismal rite. However, there is no symbolism with the Real Presence. The Host is not symbolic of Christ, the Host IS Christ. The more we believe this, the more we act accordingly, and the more we act accordingly, the more we believe it. It is the deep mystery of faith.

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  #168  
Old May 2, '12, 4:05 pm
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Default Re: Pope Benedicts wishes for communicants

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Really? I had always heard that St. Francis said it. I did a google search and got 316,000 results in which this quote is used. I got nothing when I did your quote.

Whichever, I think it is excellent advice. I still contend that people learn much more from our actions than our words. Again using a cliche (but it does get the point across), talk is cheap.


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Just goes to show ya, don't believe everything you find on the internet
That could also pertain to this forum.
316,000 to 1 (one)?
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  #169  
Old May 2, '12, 4:10 pm
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Default Re: Pope Benedicts wishes for communicants

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To make the quote work as support of your argument, you have to equate "the graces" with "the Real Presence." However, there is a difference between the graces of the Eucharist and the Real Presence. For example, if someone communicates unworthily, they are indeed receiving the Real Presence of Our Lord, but they are not receive the graces of the Sacrament (quite the contrary!). The Real Presence is not a sign of grace, it is the Real Presence. It is Real, not a sign.

You rightly point to the symbolism inherent in the baptismal rite. However, there is no symbolism with the Real Presence. The Host is not symbolic of Christ, the Host IS Christ. The more we believe this, the more we act accordingly, and the more we act accordingly, the more we believe it. It is the deep mystery of faith.

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Actually, philosophically speaking the Eucharist is both. The Eucharist most definitely IS Christ, but the host is also a sign of Christ's presence (a "Catholic And" answer if I do say so myself). I know that "sign" has really become a bad word when we talk about the Eucharist, but the word "sign" just means "something that points us to something else" (a one-to-one relationship in math-speak). The Eucharist points us to Christ because, even though it is Christ, it remains under the species of bread.

It's a bit weird, but that's because we don't usually see people under the accidents of a worldly object like bread and wine. We have the Eucharist to remind us of the actual physical presence of Christ in the world because we're human and seeing physical things helps us out (I can't remember the number, but if I remember right most of our sensory information comes from seeing, something upwards of 90%). That's one reason among many, which also makes the Eucharist a symbol (something that points to many things, or a one-to-many relationship), but of course the Eucharist is not merely symbolic (I guess we'll call that the "Catholic And And") The Eucharist is also a symbol of our need to be fed and our hunger and thirst for God and for the Wisdom of God. Catholic Online speaks about some of the symbolism in the Eucharist. To say that "it's Jesus and gives graces and that's it" actually does a great disservice to the Eucharist.

Before someone says "something can't be a symbol and something else", that's just silly. When voting for the Meech Lake Accord (a proposed package of constitutional changes in 1987 in Canada) in Manitoba, MLA Elijah Harper raised an eagle feather with his "no" vote not just to indicate his vote but also as a symbol of Aboriginal opposition to the accord (it ultimately failed). It served a purpose (his vote as an MLA) but also represented other things.
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  #170  
Old May 2, '12, 4:16 pm
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triumphguy triumphguy is offline
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Default Re: Pope Benedicts wishes for communicants

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I think it's both a blessing and a curse that some of the most active posters here are religious.

We laity have their great example of charity and we learn *so* much.

But it seems like most threads about the traditional Roman Rite become a discussion of Franciscan or Dominican spirituality with all the exceptions from the "rule" they entail, none of which applied to us laity.


I wouldn't say that if this forum wasn't intended for the express purpose of sharing our thoughts, and I mean it in the most respectfully manner possible.
Maybe they have something important to say.

We have a Catholic Church with many important and valuable threads in the weave of the cloth.

The Church is not, nor has it ever been expressed in only one way.

Without the religious orders the Church we have today would not exist. The missionaries always precede the setting up of dioceses for example. The Franciscans were the first missionaries in the Western United States for example. Who called San Francisco San Francisco? Before there were diocesan priests in many places there were Franciscan Friars. Christopher Columbus was a Secular Franciscan!

So maybe the good Friar has something important to add.

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  #171  
Old May 2, '12, 5:45 pm
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Default Re: Pope Benedicts wishes for communicants

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Originally Posted by triumphguy View Post
Maybe they have something important to say.

We have a Catholic Church with many important and valuable threads in the weave of the cloth.

The Church is not, nor has it ever been expressed in only one way.

Without the religious orders the Church we have today would not exist. The missionaries always precede the setting up of dioceses for example. The Franciscans were the first missionaries in the Western United States for example. Who called San Francisco San Francisco? Before there were diocesan priests in many places there were Franciscan Friars. Christopher Columbus was a Secular Franciscan!

So maybe the good Friar has something important to add.

The Church is not a porridge, it's a rich stew.
I 2nd that
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  #172  
Old May 2, '12, 7:05 pm
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Default Re: Pope Benedicts wishes for communicants

I agree Rich, although Brother J and Brother David help out a lot here. They add to the discussion from what I have seen. What would be interesting is if we got the opinions of a FSSP priest into the discussion around here. I would have my popcorn ready for someone like Fr. Kramer (video on another thread) saying what he said on video on these discussions boards.
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  #173  
Old May 2, '12, 7:58 pm
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Default Re: Pope Benedicts wishes for communicants

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I 2nd that
I got grumpy about derailing, my bad. People are responding like I attacked the value of the religious perspective, so I must have sounded grumpier than I intended; I actually tried to begin by affirming them.

Please forget I said anything about it.
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  #174  
Old May 2, '12, 8:26 pm
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I got grumpy about derailing, my bad. People are responding like I attacked the value of the religious perspective, so I must have sounded grumpier than I intended; I actually tried to begin by affirming them.

Please forget I said anything about it.
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  #175  
Old May 2, '12, 9:25 pm
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  #176  
Old May 2, '12, 9:51 pm
Mike30 Mike30 is offline
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Default Re: Pope Benedicts wishes for communicants

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Originally Posted by curlycool89 View Post
Actually, philosophically speaking the Eucharist is both. The Eucharist most definitely IS Christ, but the host is also a sign of Christ's presence (a "Catholic And" answer if I do say so myself). I know that "sign" has really become a bad word when we talk about the Eucharist, but the word "sign" just means "something that points us to something else" (a one-to-one relationship in math-speak). The Eucharist points us to Christ because, even though it is Christ, it remains under the species of bread. It's a bit weird, but that's because we don't usually see people under the accidents of a worldly object like bread and wine. We have the Eucharist to remind us of the actual physical presence of Christ in the world because we're human and seeing physical things helps us out (I can't remember the number, but if I remember right most of our sensory information comes from seeing, something upwards of 90%). That's one reason among many, which also makes the Eucharist a symbol (something that points to many things, or a one-to-many relationship), but of course the Eucharist is not merely symbolic (I guess we'll call that the "Catholic And And") The Eucharist is also a symbol of our need to be fed and our hunger and thirst for God and for the Wisdom of God. Catholic Online speaks about some of the symbolism in the Eucharist. To say that "it's Jesus and gives graces and that's it" actually does a great disservice to the Eucharist.

Before someone says "something can't be a symbol and something else", that's just silly. When voting for the Meech Lake Accord (a proposed package of constitutional changes in 1987 in Canada) in Manitoba, MLA Elijah Harper raised an eagle feather with his "no" vote not just to indicate his vote but also as a symbol of Aboriginal opposition to the accord (it ultimately failed). It served a purpose (his vote as an MLA) but also represented other things.
I'm not really sure I understand exactly what you are saying, but as I understand it, transubstantiation states that the bread and the wine actually become the body and blood of Christ, BUT it appears to us to be bread and wine as our senses cannot perceive it in any other way. It does not remain brad and wine, it just looks that way to us. The way you described it sounds more like consubstantiation, understood by the Lutherans in which the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ BUT it is comingled with the bread and wine, existing in union in some way..
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  #177  
Old May 3, '12, 8:22 am
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Default Re: Pope Benedicts wishes for communicants

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I'm not really sure I understand exactly what you are saying, but as I understand it, transubstantiation states that the bread and the wine actually become the body and blood of Christ, BUT it appears to us to be bread and wine as our senses cannot perceive it in any other way. It does not remain brad and wine, it just looks that way to us. The way you described it sounds more like consubstantiation, understood by the Lutherans in which the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ BUT it is comingled with the bread and wine, existing in union in some way..
I believe it was St. Augustine who put it this way: "The substance changes, the accidents remain the same". The substance is the Body and Blood of Christ, the accidents are the bread and wine, which includes all the properties of bread and wine. That's why celiacs can't receive the host (because bread has gluten) and why it's possibly to get drunk if you drink too much from the chalice (I can verify the latter, I've felt a little tipsy when asked to consume the rest of the Blood and there's like half a chalice left. I've talked to others with similar stories). I'm pretty sure that if you too a consecrated host and put it under a microscope (not recommended for obvious reasons) you'd see bread, and that would not impact the Catholic understanding at all.

I'm not saying it's not the Body and Blood of Christ (I'm saying the opposite actually), but that doesn't mean it also can't be a sign for us. They're not mutually exclusive ideas, you can have both at once. It's "both and".
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  #178  
Old May 3, '12, 8:28 am
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Actually, philosophically speaking the Eucharist is both. The Eucharist most definitely IS Christ, but the host is also a sign of Christ's presence (a "Catholic And" answer if I do say so myself). I know that "sign" has really become a bad word when we talk about the Eucharist, but the word "sign" just means "something that points us to something else" (a one-to-one relationship in math-speak). The Eucharist points us to Christ because, even though it is Christ, it remains under the species of bread.
I think this can be very confusing. It like saying my body is a sign of my soul. But my body and soul are completely intertwined. The bread and wine become Christ, they are not a sign of Christ. How can Christ point us to Christ? When you start saying that the Eucharist is a sign, people will tend to be much less reverent (although in some churches it doesn't seem like it can get any less!). I think this is very shaky reasoning and could lead to wrong interpretation.
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  #179  
Old May 3, '12, 9:13 am
TimothyH TimothyH is offline
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Default Re: Pope Benedicts wishes for communicants

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I believe it was St. Augustine who put it this way: "The substance changes, the accidents remain the same". The substance is the Body and Blood of Christ, the accidents are the bread and wine, which includes all the properties of bread and wine. That's why celiacs can't receive the host (because bread has gluten) and why it's possibly to get drunk if you drink too much from the chalice (I can verify the latter, I've felt a little tipsy when asked to consume the rest of the Blood and there's like half a chalice left. I've talked to others with similar stories). I'm pretty sure that if you too a consecrated host and put it under a microscope (not recommended for obvious reasons) you'd see bread, and that would not impact the Catholic understanding at all.

I'm not saying it's not the Body and Blood of Christ (I'm saying the opposite actually), but that doesn't mean it also can't be a sign for us. They're not mutually exclusive ideas, you can have both at once. It's "both and".

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I think this can be very confusing. It like saying my body is a sign of my soul. But my body and soul are completely intertwined. The bread and wine become Christ, they are not a sign of Christ. How can Christ point us to Christ? When you start saying that the Eucharist is a sign, people will tend to be much less reverent (although in some churches it doesn't seem like it can get any less!). I think this is very shaky reasoning and could lead to wrong interpretation.
I think you are both right but that you both have different definitions of the same words. There seems to be some disconnect between physical presence and sacramental presence and how the sacramental presence can be a sign of the physical presence.

We say that the full substance of Jesus is present in the Eucharist. It is his flesh. It is his blood. It is his soul. It is his divinity. It is the Lord! A theologian however, will never say that Jesus is physically present. For Jesus to be physically present would mean that a 180 lb man would be standing in front of us. Theologians are careful about this, and it is not something which we pick up on easily, and we often make the mistake. Theologians are careful to state that the bread and wine are changed into the substance of our Lord.

Jesus is sacramentally present in the Eucharist, and the sacramental presence of Jesus contains the entire substance of Jesus, and the entire substance of Jesus is present in the physical world in which we live, but Jesus's physical body is not present - Jesus is not physically present.

Jesus was physically present 2000 years ago in Palestine, and he will be physically present at the second coming. His presence now is sacramental, and the sacramental presence is a sign of his physical return one day.

One could say that the sacramental presence of Jesus is an order of magnitude higher than his physical presence. He can be present simultaneously in tabernacles at different times and in different places. He can be present in a tabernacle in Rome in the twelfth century, can be present in a tabernacle today in New York City, and can be present in a tabernacle in Tokyo ten centuries from now. Jesus showed us his sacramental presence when he was physically present.
When they had rowed about three or four miles, they saw Jesus walking on the sea and coming near the boat, and they began to be afraid. But he said to them, “It is I. Do not be afraid.” They wanted to take him into the boat, but the boat immediately arrived at the shore to which they were heading. (John 6:19-21)
Jesus transcends the physical world by walking on water and transcends time by appearing in another place instantaneously. Note where this is in the Bible. It's in John 6, right before Jesus explains how we must eat his flesh. To me the passage is John telling us about the sacramental presence of Jesus which is to come. John is truly the Gospel of the Eucharist.

Yes, the Eucharist is Jesus. The full substance of Jesus is present in the sacrament, under he appearance of bread an wine, as a sign of his physical presence at the parousia when he will stand before us as a man. So the sacrament is fully Jesus - his entire substance - and it is a sign of his physical return. The sacramental presence of Jesus now in the Eucharist points us to the physical presence of Jesus when he returns in glory.


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Last edited by TimothyH; May 3, '12 at 9:32 am.
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  #180  
Old May 3, '12, 9:48 am
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Default Re: Pope Benedicts wishes for communicants

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I think this can be very confusing. It like saying my body is a sign of my soul. But my body and soul are completely intertwined. The bread and wine become Christ, they are not a sign of Christ. How can Christ point us to Christ?
It is Christ, but it also points us to Christ because our senses do not perceive it as Christ.

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When you start saying that the Eucharist is a sign, people will tend to be much less reverent (although in some churches it doesn't seem like it can get any less!). I think this is very shaky reasoning and could lead to wrong interpretation.
Since when does "can be misinterpreted" mean that we shouldn't talk about it? When people talk about their devotion to the Blessed Mother sometimes here in CAF, outsiders can (and probably do) misinterpret it as as worship when it is not, but they don't understand because they don't have the background. Just because things can be hard to understand doesn't mean we can't talk about it.

I don't think people should be less reverent though, as long as they have the correct understanding. It is Christ and you should treat the Eucharist as such as that demands, but you can also remember that there are reasons why Christ gave us the Eucharist as a Sacrament as opposed to something else.

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We sense alcohol, and can therefor be physically effected by it. But it is not alcohol. The bread and wine no longer exist. It is blood. It is Jesus. It is The Lord.
I don't think that explains it. If a person is a celiac, even if they don't know that we use wheaten bread for the Eucharist they are still going to be affected by it (ie. have a reaction).

I think you're arguing far too much in favour of any reaction being purely psychosomatic (Somatoform disorder) as opposed to a physical reaction, and I don't think that can explain all cases (like the example above).

The host is the body and blood of Christ (the substance), but it has the accidents of bread (the appearance, taste, texture) are still there and not just as an illusion. Our senses only perceive the accidents: the taste of bread, the gluten in bread, but it is not bread. It is not that our senses think it is bread, our senses tell us that it is bread, but it is not bread. That's because normally we do not see such big differences between the accidents and the substance. It is only through faith that we know the substance is the body and blood of Christ.

It is not that that we only think there's alcohol, the Blood of Christ in the chalice has the properties of wine but it is not wine. Normally something (the substance) has the properties (accidents) of itself, but in this case that is not true, and we know that because of faith. I found this from EWTN to be helpful to understand.

Sorry, I don't think I was explaining it well in my last post.

...and I think I'm now responding to a post that no longer exists.

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The sacramental presence of Jesus now in the Eucharist points us to the physical presence of Jesus when he returns in glory.
Leave it to someone else to point out better in one sentence then what I try to do in a paragraph.
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