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  #271  
Old May 3, '12, 8:28 am
heart4home heart4home is offline
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Default Re: Three Principals For Honoring Your Husband

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8 View Post
What are you talking about?
I wasn't referring to the OP at all.
Well thats's what I've been talking about. Lol
  #272  
Old May 3, '12, 8:38 am
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Portrait Portrait is offline
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Default Re: Three Principals For Honoring Your Husband

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Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8 View Post
Bravo sir that's one of the most obviously biased interpretations of a (modern) official document that I have come across.

Do you have ANY good reason to think that the LETTER TO WOMEN is not addressed to women in general but instead simply particular groups of women?
Dear AngryAtheist,

Cordial greetings and thankyou for your response.

In the 'Letter to Women', dear friend, JPII addresses women, not only generally, but as various groups: thus you have "Women who are mothers"; "Women who are wives"; "Women who are daughters and sisters" "Women who work" and "Consecarated women". He does have a paragraph where he thanks "every women, for the simple fact of being a women" and this is followed, it is true, by a general address, but specific groups are, nevertheless, still referenced in the text.


God bless.


Warmest good wishes,



Portrait



Pax
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Three things are necessary for the salvation of man: to know what he ought to believe; to know what he ought to desire; and to know what he ought to do - St. Thomas Aquinas
  #273  
Old May 3, '12, 8:47 am
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Portrait Portrait is offline
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Default Re: Three Principals For Honoring Your Husband

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Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8 View Post
But if women are excluded from society (like the Arabs do) why should they care?
Dear AngryAtheist,

Hello again. Thankyou for the above.

You seem, dear friend, to be tacitly assuming that women who are homemakers are ipso facto excluded from the wider society, which is a jolly absurd viewpoint to embrace, if that is your meaning. This is to undermine the role of motherhood and to suggest that being homemaker is an inferior station in life, which it most decidedly is not, dear friend.

God bless.


Warmest good wishes,



Portrait



Pax
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Three things are necessary for the salvation of man: to know what he ought to believe; to know what he ought to desire; and to know what he ought to do - St. Thomas Aquinas
  #274  
Old May 3, '12, 8:47 am
AngryAtheist8 AngryAtheist8 is offline
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Default Re: Three Principals For Honoring Your Husband

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Originally Posted by Emmelia View Post
I think this is the most sickening thread I've ever seen on a Catholic forum...
I give up!
Heh...I've seen worse
  #275  
Old May 3, '12, 8:49 am
Serap Serap is offline
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Default Re: Three Principals For Honoring Your Husband

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmelia View Post
I think this is the most sickening thread I've ever seen on a Catholic forum...
I give up!
get used to it these threads surface all the time.
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  #276  
Old May 3, '12, 8:55 am
AngryAtheist8 AngryAtheist8 is offline
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Default Re: Three Principals For Honoring Your Husband

Quote:
Originally Posted by Portrait View Post
Dear AngryAtheist,

Cordial greetings and thankyou for your response.

In the 'Letter to Women', dear friend, JPII addresses women, not only generally, but as various groups: thus you have "Women who are mothers"; "Women who are wives"; "Women who are daughters and sisters" "Women who work" and "Consecarated women". He does have a paragraph where he thanks "every women, for the simple fact of being a women" and this is followed, it is true, by a general address, but specific groups are, nevertheless, still referenced in the text.


God bless.


Warmest good wishes,



Portrait



Pax
Here's the actual paragraph in question:

Thank you, women who work! You are present and active in every area of life-social, economic, cultural, artistic and political. In this way you make an indispensable contribution to the growth of a culture which unites reason and feeling, to a model of life ever open to the sense of "mystery", to the establishment of economic and political structures ever more worthy of humanity.

Source:
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/jo..._women_en.html


Note that the Pope refers to the indispensable contribution of women who work. There is nothing in the text to support your interpretation that women should just work to support themselves until they can find a man who will marry them.
  #277  
Old May 3, '12, 8:57 am
Serap Serap is offline
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Default Re: Three Principals For Honoring Your Husband

what this whole thing boils down to is whatever someone's personal opinion is, they will use scripture to back it up.

St. Paul is so misquoted it's funny. He was talking to the people of those times. Not only was he a holy and wise man, he was also conditioned in that particular culture 2000 years ago.

This is why I love reading the teachings of Pope JP II. For an older man, he was very contemporary in his teachings about women.

My kids are turning out so well. I found and retained the most wonderful caregiver and she is so loving with them. In addition, I come home at 5:00 p.m. and spend another 4.5 hours with them at night and then the weekends. They feel loved and they are happy.

Women worked full-time in the fields while grandma watched the children. My modern life is no different. Our caregiver is "auntie" to my kids and we'll always be close to her even when she's no longer watching our kids. she's not a stranger to them as they really love her.
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  #278  
Old May 3, '12, 9:00 am
AngryAtheist8 AngryAtheist8 is offline
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Default Re: Three Principals For Honoring Your Husband

Quote:
Originally Posted by Portrait View Post
Dear AngryAtheist,

Hello again. Thankyou for the above.

You seem, dear friend, to be tacitly assuming that women who are homemakers are ipso facto excluded from the wider society, which is a jolly absurd viewpoint to embrace, if that is your meaning. This is to undermine the role of motherhood and to suggest that being homemaker is an inferior station in life, which it most decidedly is not, dear friend.

God bless.


Warmest good wishes,



Portrait



Pax
The Arabs (particularly the Saudis) do largely exclude their women from wider society. Which in practice has only lowered their status.
  #279  
Old May 3, '12, 9:05 am
AngryAtheist8 AngryAtheist8 is offline
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Default Question Portrait has been Avoiding

Do you support this position on women or not Portrait:



Sacred Scripture clearly teaches that God gives men and women different roles in the Church, the family, and society. Men are intended by God to be teachers and leaders in the Church, the family, and society. Women should not have any kind of teaching role over adult men. Women should not have any kind of leadership role over adult men.

Women should not be political leaders. In politics, a woman should not be President or Vice President or Senator or Representative or Governor or a State legislator. A woman should not have any elected or appointed political position with authority over men, because it is contrary to the teaching of Scripture. A woman should not be Judge in any court of law, because courts have authority over men.

This passage is often rejected by Christians, because they are following the ideas of their culture rather than the ideas of Christ. Women sometimes say that marriage is a "50-50 partnership," but such is not the teaching of Christ. A woman who seeks power over her husband, who fights with him for control of the family, will ruin her marriage and her family. A wife sins against God if she rejects her husband's authority over her or if she seeks to have authority over him.

Women should not be Lectors at holy Mass. Women should not read the Scriptures aloud to the faithful at Mass. Women should not distribute holy Communion at Mass. Women should not speak at the time of the homily, not even to describe some worthy work of mercy in which they are involved. It is shameful in God's eyes for a woman to have any such role of leadership or teaching at holy Mass and at any time in the Sanctuary.

Moreover, women should not be in charge of leading or administering a parish, even one which lacks a pastor. Women should not be on the parish council, for this is a leadership role which assists the pastor, much as the Twelve Apostles assisted Christ.
  #280  
Old May 3, '12, 9:09 am
thewanderer thewanderer is offline
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Default Re: Three Principals For Honoring Your Husband

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmelia View Post
I think this is the most sickening thread I've ever seen on a Catholic forum...
I give up!
I'm not really sure why you think that. To be honest Portrait is the only person on this tread who could even be interpreted as holding a position which leads to the oppression of women, but ven he has not outrightly explained himself in such a way as to be clear that that is what he means. Well, maybe the part about expecting all married women to stop working, but even there, maybe if he were pushed we would see that his understanding is more nuanced than that? I admit that it is possible that his view is every bit as oppressive to women as some of you are assuming... But unless i've really missed something it isn't necessarily so.
  #281  
Old May 3, '12, 9:15 am
Litcrit Litcrit is offline
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Default Re: Three Principles For Honoring Your Husband

Quote:
Originally Posted by Serap View Post
You're right, homemakers are contributing a heck of a lot to society and yet why do these women feel so unaccomplished? They are also treated as being so by their husbands (in most cases). Men are part of the problem. They need to shift their own need for superiority onto something more productive.

I have heard so many women complain:

"My husband asked me what I do all day when I wanted to take a break from the kids when he got home from work."

"My husband treats me like being home with the kids is an easier job than what he does all day."
I am outraged by this - in my husband's name. He's the homemaker - a SAHD who does the majority of the household work - and people assume that he is looking for work or that he must be miserable because he's not contributing enough to the family financially and that I must be on his case constantly because I'm the breadwinner.

Nothing could be further from the truth. We're very happy as a family and my career (university teacher) enables us to actually spend the majority of time together. I greatly respect what he does and am angry that society at large does not.

However, I believe that it is because this was traditionally the sphere of women that such a bias exists - these activities are inferior because they are "women's work." Feminism has tried to rectify that, but the 2nd wave of feminism often made the mistake of proposing that the only way that women can be truly equal was to opt out of the lowly work of childcare and homemaking, whereas I believe more men should "opt in" to greater degrees, as suited to the needs of individual families comprised of different individuals with different penchants, talents, and temperaments.

Men should prove that these tasks - childcare, cleaning, cooking, washing - are not lowly menial tasks unworthy of respect by participating in them more. They can't breastfeed, but there's little else they can't do. And, in many cases, they do many of these tasks quite well. My husband is better than me at most of them.
  #282  
Old May 3, '12, 9:32 am
AngryAtheist8 AngryAtheist8 is offline
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Default Re: Three Principals For Honoring Your Husband

Quote:
Originally Posted by Serap View Post
what this whole thing boils down to is whatever someone's personal opinion is, they will use scripture to back it up.

St. Paul is so misquoted it's funny. He was talking to the people of those times. Not only was he a holy and wise man, he was also conditioned in that particular culture 2000 years ago.

This is why I love reading the teachings of Pope JP II. For an older man, he was very contemporary in his teachings about women.

My kids are turning out so well. I found and retained the most wonderful caregiver and she is so loving with them. In addition, I come home at 5:00 p.m. and spend another 4.5 hours with them at night and then the weekends. They feel loved and they are happy.

Women worked full-time in the fields while grandma watched the children. My modern life is no different. Our caregiver is "auntie" to my kids and we'll always be close to her even when she's no longer watching our kids. she's not a stranger to them as they really love her.
That's a good point.
Most women have always worked.
Its only with the emergence of a large middle class in the 19th century that the ideal of a housewife who stayed home while her husband worked became mainstream.
  #283  
Old May 3, '12, 9:46 am
Serap Serap is offline
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Default Re: Three Principles For Honoring Your Husband

Quote:
Originally Posted by Litcrit View Post
I am outraged by this - in my husband's name. He's the homemaker - a SAHD who does the majority of the household work - and people assume that he is looking for work or that he must be miserable because he's not contributing enough to the family financially and that I must be on his case constantly because I'm the breadwinner.

Nothing could be further from the truth. We're very happy as a family and my career (university teacher) enables us to actually spend the majority of time together. I greatly respect what he does and am angry that society at large does not.

However, I believe that it is because this was traditionally the sphere of women that such a bias exists - these activities are inferior because they are "women's work." Feminism has tried to rectify that, but the 2nd wave of feminism often made the mistake of proposing that the only way that women can be truly equal was to opt out of the lowly work of childcare and homemaking, whereas I believe more men should "opt in" to greater degrees, as suited to the needs of individual families comprised of different individuals with different penchants, talents, and temperaments.

Men should prove that these tasks - childcare, cleaning, cooking, washing - are not lowly menial tasks unworthy of respect by participating in them more. They can't breastfeed, but there's little else they can't do. And, in many cases, they do many of these tasks quite well. My husband is better than me at most of them.
good for you and your husband!!!

I was a SAHM for 2 years (one year when dd was born and one year when ds was born). It was WAY harder than going to work AND being a mom. SAHP (parents) have a very difficult job...the hardest job in the world and it's so undervalued.

The second wave of feminism did quite a bit of damage to women's credibility when it comes to feminism.
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  #284  
Old May 3, '12, 10:00 am
ringil ringil is offline
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Default Re: Three Principals For Honoring Your Husband

Quote:
Originally Posted by Portrait View Post

So called 'house husbands' are unnatural and bizzare and are a denial of God-given male masculinity and should therefore be eshewed and denounced in the strongest terms. Being a homemaker, like baby rearing, is exclusivley a feminine preserve into which men should not trespass. Needless to say, it does not follow from this that the husband should never wash a dish or undertake some domestic chores, especially if his wife is indisposed for a while. However, his duty is to earn the money to support his family, he is not called upon to be a "worker at home", for that would be to adopt a feminine role which is contrary to the natural order of things.
As a SAHD I feel so. . . inadequate now. . .

(sarcasm)
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  #285  
Old May 3, '12, 10:21 am
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Default Re: Three Principals For Honoring Your Husband

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8 View Post
Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8

Source:
http://www.catholicplanet.com/women/roles.html

Do you support the idea that women's economic, political, and social power should be stripped away (as the author advocates) so that being wives and mothers is their only viable option or not?
Dear AngryAtheist,

Hello again.

It is certainly true, my dear friend, that Catholics can become so imbued with the spirit of the age that "truth will not feel right" and that because Church teaching and dogma is at variance with the prevailing culture it will be rejected almost uncritically. Thus I would wholeheartedly endorse what Mr. Conte says as regards that, for I myself am continually saying much the same thing on CAF. There is a tendency among modern Catholics to reject anything that preceded the day before yesterday as being of little value and as having nothing to say to the modern age.

The roles of men and women are becoming very blurred these days and our post-modern society, in its fanatical obssession with equality and the elimination of 'sexism', is trying to obliterate the God-given distinction between men and women. There surely needs to be a radical rethink on the place of women in society and what sort of occupations can realistically be open to them. Incontrovertibly, women soldiers, for example, fighting on the frontline is a most unacceptable and distasteful instance of fanatical gender blurring to fit in with political correct idelology. As for women leaders of religion, well the Catholic Church forbids women from entering the priesthood, and thus the hierarchy, and that is a source of indignation to some, especially liberal Catholics, who feel it is discriminatory in today's world where women are entering so many occupations that have previously been the preserve of men.

Mr Conte is correct in stating, dear friend, that God assigns different roles for men and women in Church, family and society. Ideally, women are to enter into holy wedlock and be devoted to their husbands and raising godly offspring for the next generation. God has indeed given women the role of instructing and guiding children, for this is what motherhood entails. It used to be said in bygone days, that children learned first about God and Christ's religion upon their mother's knee. How true is that today?

Not permitting women to enter politics or the judiciary is, I agree, rather radical stuff to us living in the 21st century, but I think even here the chap has a point. These high powered jobs carry an overwhelming amount of responsibility and women holding these positions just do not sit comfortably with St. Paul's teaching. Perhaps we do need to think the unthinkable today and reassess the whole direction in which modern society is presently moving. What will all this end in and will even ordinary 'moderate' people like that end when it arrives? Will there be much regret and will men start to see the light when it is too late to reverse things?

The writer is correct in regarding wives being submissive and obedient to their husbands, for that is basic biblical teaching (Eph. 5: 22; Col. 3: 18). If that is erroneous, then St. Paul was in error in stating it and is, indeed, guilty of being 'mysoginistic' - something which some people are not ashamed to affirm to support their liberal viewpoint.

As for women being Lectors at Mass, reading Sacred Scripture or being exrtaordinary ministers, these are issues about which pious Catholics entertain differing opinions.

In all fairness to Mr. Conte, he does state on the home page of his site "that most of my theological writings are speculative, rather than dogmatic. Also, many of the ideas expressed on this site are a matter of pious disagreement among faithful Catholics". That to my mind, dear friend, seems jolly balanced and charitable. Really, my dear friend, do not think that Ron Conte is saying anything dreadful or sinister like that, although I will conceded that some things are a bit radical, at least by today's standards. In any event, he is at liberty to ventilate his opinions, just as you and I are, dear friend, but we do not have to accept them.


God bless.


Warmest good wishes,



Portrait



Pax
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Three things are necessary for the salvation of man: to know what he ought to believe; to know what he ought to desire; and to know what he ought to do - St. Thomas Aquinas
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