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  #1  
Old May 4, '12, 6:01 pm
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PeterJohn PeterJohn is offline
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Default How do Jews disagree with Jesus as the messiah?

How do Jews disagree with Jesus as the messiah? Jews use many Old Testament passages of prophecy to show that Jesus was not the messiah promised to them. How are we to defend our faith against Jewish people who argue this, and how do we deal with these passages?

Here are some verses:
Isaiah 2:1-4, 32:15-18, 60:15-18;
Hosea 2:20-22;
Amos 9:13-15;
Micah 4:1-4;
Zechariah 8:23, 14:9;
Jeremiah 31:33-34
Ezekiel 37:26-28
Isaiah 43:5-6
Isaiah 11:2
and many more
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Last edited by Michael Francis; May 4, '12 at 8:09 pm. Reason: Proper names are always capitalized...
  #2  
Old May 4, '12, 6:58 pm
SaintPatrick333 SaintPatrick333 is offline
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Default Re: How do jews disagree with Jesus as the messiah?

I'm new to the Catholic faith (baptized and confirmed this last Easter) but my Godfather and also my Parish's Deacon, explained it to me in a general sense (and I imagine of course there was more too it than this) but simply they did not recognize him as the Messiah because Christ was the exact opposite of what they expected. They were waiting for another warrior-king like David and instead they get a man breaking social norms by sitting and eating with the poor, the sick, the prostitutes, other undesirables etc (walking right past the nobles). He upset the customs at the time and was quite radical in what He did. Anyways that's just scratching at the surface. I'm sure someone more learned than I will be able to take it from here.
  #3  
Old May 4, '12, 7:01 pm
Barb3 Barb3 is offline
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Default Re: How do jews disagree with Jesus as the messiah?

This questions has always intrigued me -- I've never understood why the Jews didn't accept Jesus as their Messiah -- as far as I can remember, he fulfilled all their prophesies -- so why didn't they recognize Jesus as their Messiah and accept Him???
  #4  
Old May 4, '12, 7:06 pm
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PeterJohn PeterJohn is offline
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Default Re: How do jews disagree with Jesus as the messiah?

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Originally Posted by Barb3 View Post
This questions has always intrigued me -- I've never understood why the Jews didn't accept Jesus as their Messiah -- as far as I can remember, he fulfilled all their prophesies -- so why didn't they recognize Jesus as their Messiah and accept Him???
The Jewish answers I get to that question are that Jesus wan NOT the messiah and he did NOT fulfill the prophecies of what the messiah would do.
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Old May 4, '12, 7:10 pm
Seira Seira is offline
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Default Re: How do jews disagree with Jesus as the messiah?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick333 View Post
I'm new to the Catholic faith (baptized and confirmed this last Easter) but my Godfather and also my Parish's Deacon, explained it to me in a general sense (and I imagine of course there was more too it than this) but simply they did not recognize him as the Messiah because Christ was the exact opposite of what they expected. They were waiting for another warrior-king like David and instead they get a man breaking social norms by sitting and eating with the poor, the sick, the prostitutes, other undesirables etc (walking right past the nobles). He upset the customs at the time and was quite radical in what He did. Anyways that's just scratching at the surface. I'm sure someone more learned than I will be able to take it from here.
That's definately a part of it. Here's a good article that sorta gives little background about it.
  #6  
Old May 4, '12, 7:30 pm
Findingmyshoes Findingmyshoes is offline
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Default Re: How do jews disagree with Jesus as the messiah?

I have always understood that Jesus was NOT the Jewish messiah. The Jewish Messiah was going to overthrow Rome and return the Jewish state to its former glory as it was under the reign of David. Jesus did not do that, so he is not the Messiah they were looking for.
  #7  
Old May 4, '12, 8:00 pm
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po18guy po18guy is offline
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Default Re: How do jews disagree with Jesus as the messiah?

3,250 years after Moses, and silence from heaven. As well, did not the Jewish "canon" end up being closed right about the time that a certain controversial Jew turned the world upside down? Opinions on the formulation of the Jewish canon of scripture seem to span the time from 200 "BCE" to 200 "CE" Uh, just what event was it that transformed the era into the "Common Era"? Like they say, timing is everything. I wonder when in human history God has ever allowed His chosen to walk in darkness for so long?

Regarding the prophets: Some Jews also reject them, holding solely to Torah.
  #8  
Old May 4, '12, 8:10 pm
Cat Herder Cat Herder is offline
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Default Re: How do jews disagree with Jesus as the messiah?

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Originally Posted by Findingmyshoes View Post
I have always understood that Jesus was NOT the Jewish messiah. The Jewish Messiah was going to overthrow Rome and return the Jewish state to its former glory as it was under the reign of David. Jesus did not do that, so he is not the Messiah they were looking for.
Well, there's only one Messiah, not two different messiahs for the Jews and the Gentiles. Yes, Jesus Christ wasn't what the Jews had in mind--they wanted the glory days of Joshua and David and Solomon where the Cannanites got conquered and destroyed. But the Cannanites weren't put under the Ban and allowed to be conquered by the Jews because they were Gentiles, but because they sacrificed their children to Planned Pare--uh, molech. When the Jews started doing the same thing God punished them the same way that He had dealt with the Cannanites who came before them: conquest and exile (see 2 Kings 25). Thus, the Jews had no right to demand a Messiah who would conquer and destroy, which is why the real Messiah was prophesied not to conquer but to heal (see Isaiah 57:15-21).

You might want to read this series of posts where I discussed Christ as the Messiah with a Jew.
  #9  
Old May 5, '12, 12:01 am
AdesteFideles AdesteFideles is offline
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Default Re: How do Jews disagree with Jesus as the messiah?

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Originally Posted by PeterJohn View Post
How do Jews disagree with Jesus as the messiah? Jews use many Old Testament passages of prophecy to show that Jesus was not the messiah promised to them. How are we to defend our faith against Jewish people who argue this, and how do we deal with these passages?


My non-Catholic (orthodox) Jewish brethren usually make four major assumptions:

(i) There is no possible way that the New Testament is divinely inspired. It contains myth and invention, and is based only loosely on Judaism;

(ii) The phrase "the messiah" never appears in Scripture, only "messiahs" are mentioned. THE messiah is a concept which exists in the Talmud, and Talmudic interpretation of what is or is not messianic reference in Scripture is an aspect of divine oral tradition;

(iii) Any Christian understanding of what is or is not valid criteria for judging the identity of messiah is simply flawed. It comes from an ignorance of genuine Judaism, and the poor information they've been taught about what Scripture "really" says;

(iv) The concept of a Second Coming/Parousia is simply a Christian admission that Christ did NOT fulfill the obvious and clear messianic prophecies, but only vague ones which cannot be verified. In terms of bringing universal peace -- something which would be clear -- He "failed"; but on the other hand, Christians say he succeeded to doing things like being born in Bethlehem or born of a Virgin (both of which are rooted in ignorant translations and interpretations).

Phew! That about covers the main gist of the answer to your first question.

I think that, if you first spent some time looking at these core assumptions, you could begin to sort out for yourself -- along with a good, solid Catholic understanding of things -- where my Jewish brethren go wrong.

Really delving into the biggest weakness of all of this -- that the NT can never, ever, EVER be considered reliable, let alone inspired -- can really start to help you make some progress. After hearing enough Jews make ridiculous claims about why the NT is myth -- the same sort of stuff the materialists have said for ages now -- I really began to wonder about the truth of things. Contrary to what many Jews will say, yes the Resurrection does matter, it should not just be brushed aside, but investigated.

Likewise, don't be fooled into thinking that Jews are anything like sola scriptura Protestants. Contrary to what many will argue -- such as Tovia Singer -- they without question do NOT draw their messianic understanding from only biblical sources, and the bible alone is not sufficient to arrive at a clear Jewish take on all of this.

There's much to be said, and it would take years to say it. It may not be so necessary to try to delve into all of this, but if you do, prepare for a few months of serious thought in order to understand the Jewish position.

Last edited by AdesteFideles; May 5, '12 at 12:16 am.
  #10  
Old Jul 21, '12, 8:47 am
barrel224 barrel224 is offline
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Default Re: How do Jews disagree with Jesus as the messiah?

http://www.aish.com/jw/s/48892792.html


They claim that Jesus did not build the Third Temple, but what if the Third Temple is the Temple of our hearts?

They claim he did not gather all Jews back to Israel, but one could take that from a non-literalist point of view and ask, really, where is the land of Israel? Must it be a place that is physical, or is Israel more of an idea? Just a thought I had. If, indeed, a literal interpretation is required, then with the ending of the Holocaust (which means burnt offering, what a strange name, if you don't understand the Jews and their history) the Jews have been brought back into Israel. Which ties into the idea of a second coming/ fullness of time approach.

They claim he did not usher in an era of peace, yet I cannot think of a more peaceful place than a truly devout christians heart.

I think the spread of knowledge of the heart of the Law, which is Love, has been spread very very well since the coming of Jesus the Christ.

They claim that he told us to not observe Torah Law, yet, Jesus himself said, in Matthew 5:17 "Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose."


These are some of the reasons I think they are skewed in their understanding. I wish Scott Hahn were here >.< He could answer all the questions I have about the other stuff they talked about
  #11  
Old Jul 21, '12, 9:15 am
InJesusItrust InJesusItrust is offline
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Default Re: How do Jews disagree with Jesus as the messiah?

I find that prophecies like the Lord being in high honor among gentiles and knowledge of Him being spread all over the earth refers to Christianity. What constant sacrifice to the Lord that gentiles have? The mass. If they read the NT with an open mind they would see prophecies being fulfilled by Jesus. I am surprised how many can't recognize baptism as the Lamb's blood of Passover and Eucharist being the Paschal Lamb to consume.
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  #12  
Old Jul 21, '12, 11:01 am
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rfournier103 rfournier103 is offline
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Default Re: How do Jews disagree with Jesus as the messiah?

Maybe someone of the Jewish faith would like to weigh in on this?
  #13  
Old Jul 21, '12, 12:17 pm
Hunter24 Hunter24 is offline
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Default Re: How do Jews disagree with Jesus as the messiah?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterJohn View Post
How do Jews disagree with Jesus as the messiah? Jews use many Old Testament passages of prophecy to show that Jesus was not the messiah promised to them. How are we to defend our faith against Jewish people who argue this, and how do we deal with these passages?

Here are some verses:
Isaiah 2:1-4, 32:15-18, 60:15-18;
Hosea 2:20-22;
Amos 9:13-15;
Micah 4:1-4;
Zechariah 8:23, 14:9;
Jeremiah 31:33-34
Ezekiel 37:26-28
Isaiah 43:5-6
Isaiah 11:2
and many more
Jesus wasn't realy the kind of guy most Jews were looking for. The jews of biblical times had been opressed and controlled by one empire or another for over 700 years. First the Babelonians, then Persians, then Alexander the Great, the Helenic rulers of Egypt, and then finaly at the time of Jesus, the Romans. They had been 700 years without their own kingdom and they weren't looking for a prophet, they were looking for a warrior-king to restore their kingdom. This is why the Romans were unnerved when people called Jesus the messiah, they were expecting him to incite a Jewish uprising. When the Jews found out Jesus had no plans to kick out the Romans they were rather disappointed.
  #14  
Old Jul 21, '12, 1:46 pm
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Kaninchen Kaninchen is offline
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Default Re: How do Jews disagree with Jesus as the messiah?

There have been any number of threads on the theme of 'Why don't Jews believe in Jesus?'

Here's a recent one where Chosen People and I addressed a number of the usual themes.
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  #15  
Old Jul 22, '12, 2:54 pm
chosen people chosen people is offline
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Default Re: How do Jews disagree with Jesus as the messiah?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterJohn View Post
How do Jews disagree with Jesus as the messiah?
The Messiah ben David is by definition that man who fulfills all six of the criterion in the Jewish scriptures. From a Jewish perspective what makes Christian claims that Jesus was the Messiah ben David so remarkable, is that he did not fulfill a single one of the six criterion.

On the other hand, there is no concept in Judaism that faith in the Messiah ben David leads to personal salvation. There is not a single verse in the Torah or prophets that states or implies that belief in the Messiah ben David is required for or related to personal salvation. The salvation program for Jews is to love God, fear God and keep His commandments.

The six authentic Jewish Messianic criteria are:
1. have the correct genealogy by being descended from King David and king Solomon
2. be anointed King of Israel
3. return the Jewish people to Israel
4. rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem
5. bring peace to the world and end all war
6. bring knowledge of God to the world

We see that each of the six Jewish messianic criteria is empirically verifiable and therefore faith is not required to determine the identity of the Jewish Messiah ben David. We can see if the Temple has been rebuilt, if all the Jews have returned to Israel, if the entire world believes in God and follows Torah, if the entire world is at peace.

Christianity couldn't overcome the defect of their leader not fulfilling a single one of the six criteria, so they created the concept of "faith" in the Christian leader to overcome this defect. Of course, they were still stuck with the non fulfillment of the criteria for the Jewish Messiah ben David, so they also came up with the concept, which has no basis in Jewish scripture, of the "second coming". So Christians say, Jesus didn't have to fulfill the six criterion of the Jewish Messiah ben David ( (which ironically are the way to identify the Messiah ben David), and they say you can put off the fulfillment of these criterion, until Jesus comes back to life on earth a second time. However, if this is true, can't anyone claim that a beloved deceased relative was a good and righteous man and is in fact the Messiah ben David?. Of course, They'll have to wait until he returns to know if they are correct in their assumption, however they can claim to have "faith" that they are in fact correct.

That left Christianity with two problems. If the Christian leader didn't bring about the state of things as stated in the six criteria, what did he do and under what other criteria can they claim that he was the Messiah ben David?


If we read the Christian scriptures, we see that the Christian leader made a couple of egregious misquotes of the Jewish scriptures. None the less, he did say a few really worthwhile things. However, it turns out that these things were lifted from the Jewish scriptures and presented as if original to Jesus in the Christian scriptures.

Here are just a few of many concrete examples:
Psalms 37;11
'but the humble shall inherit the earth, and delight in abundant peace"

becomes in Matthew 5:5 (the sermon on the mount)
'Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth'

Psalms 24:3-4
"Who may ascend the mountain of Hashem and who may stand in the place of sanctity?One with clean hand and pure heart;"

becomes in Matthew 5:8
"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God"

Lamentations 3:30
"Let one offer his cheek to the smiter, let him be filled with disgrace"

becomes in Matthew 5;39

"...but if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also..."


So Christianity found itself rejected by Jews, since from a Jewish perspective it was clear that Jesus did not fulfill the criteria of the Messiah ben David. In as much as he was rehashing Jewish scriptures, that too was not impressive to the Jews.

In this regard, it should be mentioned that Jesus is mentioned in the Torah as a test of the Jewish people's faith to God and the eternal covenant:

Devarim - Deuteronomy - Chapter 13

א אֵת כָּל-הַדָּבָר, אֲשֶׁר אָנֹכִי מְצַוֶּה אֶתְכֶם--אֹתוֹ תִשְׁמְרוּ, לַעֲשׂוֹת: לֹא-תֹסֵף עָלָיו, וְלֹא תִגְרַע מִמֶּנּוּ. {פ}

ב כִּי-יָקוּם בְּקִרְבְּךָ נָבִיא, אוֹ חֹלֵם חֲלוֹם; וְנָתַן אֵלֶיךָ אוֹת, אוֹ מוֹפֵת. ג וּבָא הָאוֹת וְהַמּוֹפֵת, אֲשֶׁר-דִּבֶּר אֵלֶיךָ לֵאמֹר: נֵלְכָה אַחֲרֵי אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים, אֲשֶׁר לֹא-יְדַעְתָּם--וְנָעָבְדֵם. ד לֹא תִשְׁמַע, אֶל-דִּבְרֵי הַנָּבִיא הַהוּא, אוֹ אֶל-חוֹלֵם הַחֲלוֹם, הַהוּא: כִּי מְנַסֶּה יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵיכֶם, אֶתְכֶם, לָדַעַת הֲיִשְׁכֶם אֹהֲבִים אֶת-יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵיכֶם, בְּכָל-לְבַבְכֶם וּבְכָל-נַפְשְׁכֶם. ה אַחֲרֵי יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵיכֶם תֵּלֵכוּ, וְאֹתוֹ תִירָאוּ; וְאֶת-מִצְו‍ֹתָיו תִּשְׁמֹרוּ וּבְקֹלוֹ תִשְׁמָעוּ, וְאֹתוֹ תַעֲבֹדוּ וּבוֹ תִדְבָּקוּן.

1. Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it.

2. If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,

3. and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them,"

4. you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.

5. You shall follow the Lord, your God, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him.

Jesus is presented in the Christian scriptures as a prophet who performed signs, wonders and miracles. The concept of the son of God and the trinity are gods that the Jewish people did not know.

God tests the Jews to keep the eternal covenant between Him and the Jewish people. From a Jewish perspective, for a Jew to "believe" in Jesus is a failure of God's test. While Judaism teaches that it is easier for the Gentile than for the Jew to get into the World to Come as the Gentile has only to uphold the seven Noahide commandments, the penalty of failing God's test for a Jew is to be separated forever from God in the World to Come.

Matthew,Mark;Luke and John are the putative authors of their respective Gospels, only Matthew and John are mentioned as disciples and witnesses to to events in the life of Jesus. Mark and Luke did not claim to be eyewitnesses to events in Jesus' life.

Now we know that the Gospel of Mark (who was not an eyewitness) was the first synoptic Gospel since Matthew copied about 90% of the Gospel of Mark (600 out of 660 verses) and Luke copied over 50% of the Gospel of Mark. Now if Matthew really was a disciple and a witness to events why would he need to copy Mark and rely so heavily of Marks version of events ? (why would he refer to himself in the third person in Matthew 9:9?). Which leaves us with John which contains material not found in Mark, contradicts events reported in Matthew and Luke and contains none of the" historical material" contained only in Matthew and Luke such as infancy and childhood.To make matters even more complicated, whenever they reported "historical material"l not found in Mark (on whose Gospel they obviously relied) and although they were not eyewitnesses, they contradict each other and make alterations and additions to Mark's Jesus story.

The Epistles make no mention of the Gospels which strongly suggest that the Gospels did not exist until after the Epistles were written. Although this earliest Christian document was written much closer to the alleged lifetime of Jesus, the Epistles speak of a divine being with virtually no reference to physical events on earth or in history. There are no sayings of Jesus, or parables, or miracles or details about his life. There is no crucifixion mentioned, no empty tomb, no alleged rising from the tomb.

Although Christian scholars put forward that the Gospels existed in some form by the late first century of the common era, the first time there is a written reference to a Gospel is a reference to the Gospel of Mark in 125 c.e. and the first written reference to all four Gospels is in 175 c.e.

Now although Christians believe that a god had literally come down to earth, this was missed by every one of the 41 historians who lived during the first and early second century, who wrote about Judea and Rome and whose works have survived. Not a single one of them mentioned Jesus, his alleged disciples, his apostles or any of the miraculous events described in the Gospels.

The lack of sources outside of Christianity has led to reliance on forged passages from Josephus and even trying to interpret Talmudic passages as somehow referring to the Jesus figure. Now Jesus may have existed historically but there is little or no credible evidence supporting his existence.

The Jewish prophets have explicitly stated,that in the Messianic Era, Gentiles will stop being blinded to the truth and realize they have inherited falsehood:

"Hashem (God) my Strength, my Stronghold and my Refuge on the day of distress! To You (God) nations will come from the ends of the earth and say: "It was all falsehood that our ancestors inherited, futility that has no purpose. Can a man make gods for himself - they are not gods! (Jeremiah 16:19-20)
יט יְהוָה עֻזִּי וּמָעֻזִּי, וּמְנוּסִי--בְּיוֹם צָרָה; אֵלֶיךָ, גּוֹיִם יָבֹאוּ מֵאַפְסֵי-אָרֶץ, וְיֹאמְרוּ אַךְ-שֶׁקֶר נָחֲלוּ אֲבוֹתֵינוּ, הֶבֶל וְאֵין-בָּם מוֹעִיל.
כ הֲיַעֲשֶׂה-לּוֹ אָדָם, אֱלֹהִים; וְהֵמָּה, לֹא אֱלֹהִים.

{In the Messianic Era} "Nations will walk by your [the Jewish People's] light and kings by the brilliance of your shine" Isaiah 60:3
וְהָלְכוּ גוֹיִם, לְאוֹרֵךְ; וּמְלָכִים, לְנֹגַהּ זַרְחֵךְ.

"I will set you [the Jewish People] for a covenant to the people, for a light to the nations, to open blind eyes [in the Messianic Age] Isaiah 42:6-7
וְאֶתֶּנְךָ לִבְרִית עָם--לְאוֹר גּוֹיִם.
לִפְקֹחַ, עֵינַיִם עִוְרוֹת
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