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View Poll Results: Shroud of Turin..................
It's the genuine burial cloth of Jesus 124 83.78%
It's a deliberate fraud 14 9.46%
Just an accidental phenomenon 10 6.76%
Voters: 148. You may not vote on this poll

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  #106  
Old May 4, '12, 1:46 am
drfye drfye is offline
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Default Re: Shroud of Turin

hmm, I have not read enough about it to form an opinion, so for now I have " healthy skepticism" about it.
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  #107  
Old May 4, '12, 2:58 am
patrick457 patrick457 is offline
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Default Re: Shroud of Turin

(Continued)

In light of this skepticism amongst northerners, Margaret once more headed south with the Shroud still in her keeping. An exposition held at the castle of Germolles, near Mâcon in 1452 seems to have been equally unpromising: it would take Margaret a year to finish her search.

On 22 March 1453 in Geneva, a suitable heir finally came in the persons of Louis, Duke of Savoy, and his wife Anne de Lusignan of Cyprus, who gave the widow the chateau of Varambon and the revenues from the estate of Miribel near Lyons in exchange for what the contract between the two parties describes as ‘valuable services’ from Margaret: in other words, the widow had ceded (one could even say “sold”) the cloth to Louis. Thanks to this transaction, for 530 years (1453-1983) the Shroud was the property of the House of Savoy.

Meanwhile, the canons of Lirey, unaware of the events that had transpired, still pressured Margaret to hand over the Shroud, sending her a letter in May 1457 threatening to excommunicate her should she fail to comply. This they eventually did: it needed once again the assistance of Charles des Noyers to negotiate with the canons. Finally realizing that they could no longer retrieve the Shroud and that at best, the only thing they could ask for is monetary compensation for it, the canons begrudgingly withdrew the excommunication from Margaret in 1459. She died a year later (in 7 October), content that she had done her duty. Her Lirey lands were bequeathed to her cousin and godson Antoine-Guerry des Essars.

In 1464, Louis agreed to pay an annual fee to the canons in exchange for their dropping claims of ownership of what he called "the most holy Shroud representing the image of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." In the accord drawn in 6 February of that year, Louis attempted to justify and substantiate the transaction by pointing out that the Shroud was bequeathed to the church of Lirey by the elder Geoffroy de Charny, and that Margaret had then transferred it to Louis.

While considering a permanent home for the cloth, the duke first lodged it in the Franciscan church in Geneva (Louis had close connections with the order: he had a retinue of friars who served as his personal confessors). The same year also marked the election of the 50 year-old theologian Francesco della Rovere as Minister General of the Franciscan order. Interestingly, della Rovere, who penned the work De Sanguine Christi ("On the Blood of Christ") on that year, alludes to "the Shroud in which the body of Christ was wrapped when he was taken down from the cross. This is now preserved with great devotion by the Dukes of Savoy, and it is colored with the blood of Christ..."

Louis died at Lyon in 1465, while returning from France: his acquisition of the Shroud would later be praised as his greatest achievement. The successor to the duchy was his pious but lazy son Amadeus, who was by now thirty years old. He shared with his wife Duchess Yolande of France a particular devotion to the Shroud, but was an inept ruler who neglected to honor the terms of Louis' agreement with the Lirey canons. (The unrelenting canons would send delegates and release warrants demanding that either the agreement be honored or the Shroud relinquished.) They would set in train the second phase of construction of the already partially-built chapel at Chambéry, the capital of the Savoy region, that later, as the Sainte-Chapelle, will become a permanent home for the Shroud. By the time construction work was commenced (1471), Francesco della Rovere was elected pope, taking the name of Sixtus IV. Two years after his election into the pontificate his De Sanguine Christi would be published, which would give the Shroud, for the first time in its history, some recognition from the Holy See.


Francesco della Rovere, aka Sixtus IV

Beginning in 1471 and lasting for the next thirty-one years, the Shroud moved between many cities of Europe, joining the Savoys as their court journeyed from castle to castle. During this period, the cloth was housed briefly in places like Vercelli, Turin, Ivrea, Susa, Chambéry, Avigliana, Rivoli, and Pinerolo. A description of the cloth by two sacristans of the Sainte-Chapelle from around this time noted that it was stored in a reliquary: "enveloped in a red silk drape, and kept in a case covered with crimson velours, decorated with silver-gilt nails, and locked with a golden key."
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  #108  
Old May 4, '12, 3:08 am
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atheistgirl atheistgirl is offline
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Default Re: Shroud of Turin

Quite an interesting leap from this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by patrick457 View Post
Not long after that she was at Chimay, in the diocese of Ličge: the Benedictine chronicler Cornelius Zantiflet recorded her as exhibiting "a certain sheet on which the shape of the body of our Lord Jesus Christ has been skilfully painted, with astonishing artistry, showing the outlines of all the limbs, and with feet, hands and side stained with blood-red, as if they had recently suffered stigmata and wounds." Like the bishop of Troyes years earlier, the clerics of Hainut were skeptical of the Shroud's authenticity. All Margaret could offer to the bishop of Ličge in lieu of a certification were the bulls of Clement VII describing the cloth as only a 'figure or representation' of Jesus crucified.
to this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by patrick457 View Post
The same year also marked the election of the 50 year-old theologian Francesco della Rovere as Minister General of the Franciscan order. Interestingly, della Rovere, who penned the work De Sanguine Christi ("On the Blood of Christ") on that year, alludes to "the Shroud in which the body of Christ was wrapped when he was taken down from the cross. This is now preserved with great devotion by the Dukes of Savoy, and it is colored with the blood of Christ..."
with no additional information!

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  #109  
Old May 4, '12, 3:45 am
patrick457 patrick457 is offline
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Default Re: Shroud of Turin

Quote:
Originally Posted by atheistgirl View Post
Quite an interesting leap from this:



to this:



with no additional information!

Sarah x
It is, isn't it?

When the younger Geoffroy de Charny exhibited the Shroud in the 1380s, the antipope Clement VII was very careful about the terminology used for it: he required that it be considered as an "image or representation of the shroud of our Lord Jesus Christ." However, as Bishop d'Arcis' memorandum implies, at the time of the elder Geoffroy thirty years earlier the Lirey camp are apparently insistent that the shroud they were showing was the genuine article, "the actual shroud in which our Savior Jesus Christ was enfolded in the tomb." And despite official caution, we can see that people still considered it as the real one, as evidenced by the 'figure or representation' formula slowly slipping away as time went on: during the legal battle of 1443 between Margaret de Charny and the canons of Lirey the cloth was called "precious jewel of the holy Shroud;" by 1449 and 1457 the cloth is now simply "the holy Shroud of our Lord Jesus Christ." When Louis agreed to pay the canons in compensation for their loss in 1464, he dubbed the relic "the most holy Shroud representing the image of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."
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  #110  
Old May 4, '12, 7:43 am
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Default Re: Shroud of Turin................

Quote:
Originally Posted by Candide West View Post
I already provided the reference from Nature which gives the details. But even the paper you referenced states that it was manufactured in medieval times. So clearly there IS solid evidence, I suppose technically that doesn't show it to be a forgery, it just shows that it's could not be the burial shroud refered to in the bible.
And that was already rebutted.

The cloth rolled up in the corner is another cloth entirely.
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  #111  
Old May 4, '12, 7:55 am
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Default Re: Shroud of Turin

Whenever this subject comes up we have a number of people that will not believe it , not even if Jesus himself appeared before them and told them it was real.

Still, and interesting debate.
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  #112  
Old May 4, '12, 8:26 am
Non sum dignus Non sum dignus is offline
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Default Re: Shroud of Turin................

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcrow View Post
Also, the Church tends to not approve or disapprove anything unless there is enough proof for or against it to make a decision. So, for the most part if the Church has no ruling on something like this, it's more than likely OK to believe what you want.

From what I've been able to gather, most priests I've heard speak on it and from some people higher in the Church have said I would say there is more support of it in the church than not.
For those well-rooted in the faith, the question of the Shroud of Turin is largely academic, anyway. If you already believe that the God-man died and came back to life after clearing the way to Heaven (which, true or not, is a peculiar belief), the question of whether or not the resurrection may have had a unique effect on a burial cloth is kinda...ex post facto.

For me, it's more a fun physics question. "What sort of energy transfer occurs when a divine nature jump starts a human nature? Show your work."
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  #113  
Old May 5, '12, 12:34 am
itullian itullian is offline
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Default Re: Shroud of Turin

it sure seems to have supernatural characteristics.
of course, our faith doesn't depend on it.
but it sure baffles a lot of folks.
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  #114  
Old May 5, '12, 7:44 am
Uzziah1 Uzziah1 is offline
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Default Re: Shroud of Turin

Quote:
Originally Posted by itullian View Post
since it was brought up in another thread, i'd thought it should have it's own.

so what do you think about? real, acccident, fraud?

it seems rather amazing,no?
I used to be a big fan of the Shroud. I have a small library of books about it. However, several years ago, two researches proved to my satisfacion that it is fake. A confluence of factors really are persuasive.

The researchers produced pretty good images on linen using egg whites mixed with urea-like chemicals, sprayed, in the dark, upon the linen, and exposed to the image being photographed in giant box cameras -- permanent photos generated with the most elementary technology imaginable, easily available during the Renaissance.

The confluence of factors are these ...

(1) Again, the technology was easily available.

(2) At least two giant "box camera" buildings exist in Europe, one in Italy, one in Britain.

(3) When the giant box camera picture is taken, it leaves a "focal ring" circlette at the center of the image. Look at the bridge of the nose of the man on the Shroud very carefully.

(4) The nose would be the center of the image because if the giant box camera image is too long, it elongates the image at the edges. If the creator of the Shroud had made, say, the navel or the solar plexus as the center of a single image, the head would have been visibly "cone-headed." To get around this problem, the creator made the Shroud out of TWO images, head and body. So, careful review of the Shroud image shows that it has no neck. Additionally, the head is about 10% microcephalic -- the photographer wasn't careful enough about matching image "magnifications."

Why would the Shroud have been faked?

Simple: To substitute it in for the real one, to steal the real one, which may or may not still exist.

The concept that the Shroud is a photographic copy of a real Shroud explains the authentic details on it. In the Shroud of Turin, Jesus has a ponytail. In the Shroud of Turin, there appear to be coins on Jesus' eyes (a custom in Jesus' time, to pay Charon the Boatman on entry into the Underworld). In the Shrouid of Turin, Jesus' thumbs are visible, something which occurs when a person is crucified with nails through the wrists.

How would a forger get all of this correct?

Simple: He copied a real Shroud.
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  #115  
Old May 5, '12, 8:07 am
patrick457 patrick457 is offline
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Default Re: Shroud of Turin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uzziah1 View Post
The concept that the Shroud is a photographic copy of a real Shroud explains the authentic details on it. In the Shroud of Turin, Jesus has a ponytail. In the Shroud of Turin, there appear to be coins on Jesus' eyes (a custom in Jesus' time, to pay Charon the Boatman on entry into the Underworld). In the Shrouid of Turin, Jesus' thumbs are visible, something which occurs when a person is crucified with nails through the wrists.

How would a forger get all of this correct?

Simple: He copied a real Shroud.
1.) Coins over the eyes = unlikely. (Come to think of it, why would Jews even practice the pagan custom of Charon's obol?)
2.) The thumbs are not visible.
3.) The blood was formed first, the image second.
4.) The 'image' is actually formed by the caramelization of the clear polysaccharide residue (180--600 nanometers thick) which coats the outermost-topmost fibers of the cloth.
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  #116  
Old May 5, '12, 11:47 am
Uzziah1 Uzziah1 is offline
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Default Re: Shroud of Turin

Quote:
Originally Posted by patrick457 View Post
1.) Coins over the eyes = unlikely. (Come to think of it, why would Jews even practice the pagan custom of Charon's obol?)
2.) The thumbs are not visible.
3.) The blood was formed first, the image second.
4.) The 'image' is actually formed by the caramelization of the clear polysaccharide residue (180--600 nanometers thick) which coats the outermost-topmost fibers of the cloth.
Re coins, after Israel was re-established in 1948, a man crucified by the Romans around the time of Christ was unearthed from a Jewish tomb in a Jewish cemetery. He had coins on his eyes.

Today, we practice many pagan rituals without being aware of it. When we break the Thanksgiving turkey wishbone, we are re-enacting ancient Etruscan use of chickens as oracles. When we say, "Knock on wood" to mean, "I hope that you have good luck in your endeavor," you are re-enacting an ancient Celtic custom of getting the attention of the sky God who lived in tall oak trees before you pray to him. They believed that he lived in oak trees because, "Look! Look! Look! Did you see the lighting striking that tall oak tree again?" When you cover your mouth when you yawn, you are re-ennacting a ritual which developed many centuries ago when the observation that babies yawned before crib death led to a belief that they were exhaling their spirits. Covering the mouth is an attempt to hold it in.

So, either start confessing covering your mouth when you yawn, you pagan heretic, or give the Jews who covered Jesus' eyes with coins a break.

(2) Re thumbs, THAT'S THE POINT. The thumbs fold-in when someone is nailed through the wrist. THE POINT IS, HOW DID THE FORGERS GET THAT CORRECT?

Simple: They were copying a real Shroud.

(3) Re blood on it first, that's not an argument; that's a bootstrapped assumption.

(4) Re the polysaccharide business, I have never read that, and I will check that out. As far as I know, carmelized polysaccharides are water soluable, so I would be surprised if you are right.
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  #117  
Old May 5, '12, 7:50 pm
patrick457 patrick457 is offline
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Default Re: Shroud of Turin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uzziah1 View Post
Re coins, after Israel was re-established in 1948, a man crucified by the Romans around the time of Christ was unearthed from a Jewish tomb in a Jewish cemetery. He had coins on his eyes.
Yes, I've heard about that. Prof. Rachel Hachlili (who actually wrote a book entitled Jewish Funerary Customs, Practices and Rites in the Second Temple Period) reported finding two coins (from the time of Herod Agrippa, AD 40-45) inside a skull in a certain tomb in the Jericho hills in 1979. However there are certain problems with taking this piece of evidence in face value.

I will allow for the possibility that coins or some other such stuff were placed in the eyes in some burials, but this would have been done more for practical reasons (keeping the eyes shut) rather than a direct religious custom comparable to the Greek custom of Charon's obol.

Quote:
Today, we practice many pagan rituals without being aware of it. When we break the Thanksgiving turkey wishbone, we are re-enacting ancient Etruscan use of chickens as oracles.
Then thank God I don't celebrate Thanksgiving. I wish I'd get a chance to eat turkey though, even if just once.

Quote:
When we say, "Knock on wood" to mean, "I hope that you have good luck in your endeavor," you are re-enacting an ancient Celtic custom of getting the attention of the sky God who lived in tall oak trees before you pray to him. They believed that he lived in oak trees because, "Look! Look! Look! Did you see the lighting striking that tall oak tree again?" When you cover your mouth when you yawn, you are re-ennacting a ritual which developed many centuries ago when the observation that babies yawned before crib death led to a belief that they were exhaling their spirits. Covering the mouth is an attempt to hold it in.

So, either start confessing covering your mouth when you yawn, you pagan heretic, or give the Jews who covered Jesus' eyes with coins a break.
I'll confess that I oftentimes neglect covering my mouth when I yawn. I guess my spirit's gone outside more than it should. And I'm not really keen on the "knock on wood" thing: IMHO the Italian tocca ferro ('touch iron') is way more kewl.

Quote:
(2) Re thumbs, THAT'S THE POINT. The thumbs fold-in when someone is nailed through the wrist. THE POINT IS, HOW DID THE FORGERS GET THAT CORRECT?

Simple: They were copying a real Shroud.
Not necessarily. We could also argue that the thumbs are missing from the Shroud image because their natural position both in death and in the living person is in the front of and slightly to the side of the index finger. Hence it would be next to impossible to have impressions of the thumbs because the cloth would not have been in contact with them.

Quote:
(3) Re blood on it first, that's not an argument; that's a bootstrapped assumption.

(4) Re the polysaccharide business, I have never read that, and I will check that out. As far as I know, carmelized polysaccharides are water soluable, so I would be surprised if you are right.
(3) and (4) are actually related to one another: we know that the bloodstains were formed first on the Shroud because there is no image (which as mentioned is made up of caramelized polysaccharide which coats the topmost fibers of the sheet) underneath them: the stains inhibited the image formation mechanism. Unlike the image proper - which is very fragile and superficial - these stains had seeped through the cloth.






Polysaccharide coating

I quote from an article by a certain guy named Raymond Rogers (who was part of a, well, rather insignificant research team known as STURP - Shroud of Turin Research Project):
9) How is it possible to get image only on the topmost surface of the cloth?

Because the cellulose was not involved in image formation, the color must have formed in impurities on the surfaces of the image fibers. Independent observations have proved that all of the image color resides in a very thin layer on the outside surfaces of colored fibers.
Evaporation concentration can explain the superficial nature of the image and the identical properties of the front and back images. It can also explain the "doubly-superficial" image, i.e., the presence of a superficial image on the back surface of the cloth as reported by Ghiberti and Fanti and Maggiolo. When a solution evaporates at the surface of a porous solid, dissolved solutes are concentrated at the evaporating surface. The principle is illustrated in the photomicrograph with blue dye. A piece of linen was saturated with a dilute solution of blue dye, and the cloth was dried while laying on a sheet of Teflon. All evaporation occurred at the top surface, and the dye concentrated on that surface. It is obvious that most of the dye deposited on the highest parts of the weave and the upward-pointing fibers of the nap. A sheet of cloth that contained sugars and starches would deposit those impurities at the very topmost part of the weave after washing and drying.
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  #118  
Old May 5, '12, 7:54 pm
patrick457 patrick457 is offline
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Default Re: Shroud of Turin

I'm surprised no one mentioned the Pray Codex yet.


The Pray Codex is a collection of medieval manuscripts originally discovered by Hungarian Jesuit historian György Pray in 1770, and later named after him. It is the first known example of continuous prose text in Hungarian. The codex is kept in the National Széchényi Library of Budapest.

One of the most prominent documents within the codex is the Funeral Sermon and Prayer (Hungarian: Halotti beszéd és könyörgés), an old handwritten Hungarian text dating to 1192-1195. Its importance of the Funeral Sermon comes from that it is the oldest surviving Hungarian, and Finno-Ugric text. Aside from this the Codex also features a missal, an Easter mystery play, songs with musical notation, laws from the time of Coloman of Hungary (1074-1116) and the annals, which list the Hungarian kings. There are five illustrations contained within this codex. One of these (above) depict the burial of Jesus and the women discovering the empty tomb.

The official results of the 1988 C-14 tests gave a date of AD 1260-1390 with 95% confidence. Judging from the Funeral Sermon, the Pray Codex itself can be dated from around the late 12th century at the earliest (somewhere between 1192-1195). If the illustration on the codex is reliable evidence for the Shroud - which proponents say it is - this pushes its existence at least 70 or so years before the earliest possible date the C-14 gives (AD 1260).





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  #119  
Old May 6, '12, 2:12 pm
Kasama Kasama is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buffalo View Post
http://forums.catholic.com/34%20Thousand%20Billion%20Watts%20%28Hol y%20Shroud%20of%20Turin%29 34 thousand billion watts makes it impractical today to reproduce
Your link doesn’t seem to work, I Googled it and found this interesting Youtube video clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6nuyWTqOtA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Candide West View Post
in 1988 three laboratories carried out carbon dating on samples from the cloth and all gave dates of manufacture in the 13th or 14th century.
The 3 laboratories used segments of the same piece, that was cut from an edge. This edge was later shown by established scientist to be that of a hem repair made in the 14th Century. “further examination of the corner of the cloth from which samples for testing were taken proved to be different in chemical composition from the main part of the cloth.” “Whiting describes reports of fibers detected from an area of cloth directly adjoining the tested samples retaining a gum coating not found on any of the fibers from the main part of the shroud. The identified coating appeared to be a gum arabic substance. Gum arabic was routinely used during re-weaving repairs to manage the threads.”

http://www.DatingTheShroud.com/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Candide West View Post
Pierre d'Arcis, wrote about the shroud towards the end of the 14th century after it was first displayed. He said that the matter had been investigated by a Bishop at the time - one Henri de Poitiers - and that he "after diligent inquiry and examination, discovered how the said cloth had been cunningly painted, the truth being attested by the artist who had painted it, to wit, that it was a work of human skill and not miraculously wrought or bestowed."
That was in the 14th Century, the STURP Team found no trace of paint.
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  #120  
Old May 7, '12, 8:00 am
Candide West Candide West is offline
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Default Re: Shroud of Turin................

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Originally Posted by buffalo View Post
And that was already rebutted.

The cloth rolled up in the corner is another cloth entirely.
??? What was rebutted? I said there is solid evidence that the "shroud" is a medieval forgery. You asked what evidence and I directed you back to the article in Nature that i originally cited, and YOUR reference. Both of which note the solid evidence that the cloth was manufactured in medieval times. This has nothing to do with the mismatch against biblical statements.
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