Are certain people predestined to Heaven?

BListon · #1 May 5, '12, 10:44 am

Were some of the people in the scriptures predestined to heaven from birth according to God's plan? Ex. The Blessed Virgin was concieved without original sin at birth, so she could give birth to the Son of God. Was she also predestined for heaven at birth? Another example, was St. Peter predestined, because God chose to give him the keys to the kingdom? Was this all part of God's pre determined plan?

Theophorus · #2 May 5, '12, 11:55 am

Nope, they always had the choice whether or not to follow Him and as such could have chosen not to do so.

Layp3rs0n · #3 May 5, '12, 11:59 am

In the case of Mary, yes. For all others that are not Jesus, no.

meltzerboy · #4 May 5, '12, 12:03 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BListon

Were some of the people in the scriptures predestined to heaven from birth according to God's plan? Ex. The Blessed Virgin was concieved without original sin at birth, so she could give birth to the Son of God. Was she also predestined for heaven at birth? Another example, was St. Peter predestined, because God chose to give him the keys to the kingdom? Was this all part of God's pre determined plan?

I suppose for Calvinists, the answer is yes, in fact double predestination, if I recall correctly. But not according to Catholicism or Judaism, in which human free will plays such a vital role in our lives.

Justice_Mercy · #5 May 5, '12, 12:23 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by meltzerboy

I suppose for Calvinists, the answer is yes, in fact double predestination, if I recall correctly. But not according to Catholicism or Judaism, in which human free will plays such a vital role in our lives.

Not all Calvinists believe in double Predestination... only Hyper-Calvinists take that stance.

Interestingly, Jesus knew that Judas was not a true follower, but choosing him anyway. Christ says in John 17:12 (NAB):

When I was with them I protected them in your name that you gave me, and I guarded them, and none of them was lost except the son of destruction, in order that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Something to ponder...

Theophorus · #6 May 5, '12, 12:26 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Layp3rs0n

In the case of Mary, yes. For all others that are not Jesus, no.

No, mary wasn't predestined. It was her total and sustained yes to God(and so to His saving grace) that got her there, she could have chosen to sin had she wanted to.

Todd Easton · #7 May 5, '12, 12:29 pm

Yes. Free will notwithstanding, it is possible for God to give such a superabundance of grace to an individual as to make it practically impossible for him not to die in a state of grace. However, in its Decree on Justification, chapter 12, the Council of Trent cautions against anyone presuming to be among such persons:

No one, moreover, so long as he is in this mortal life, ought so far to presume as regards the secret mystery of divine predestination, as to determine for certain that he is assuredly in the number of the predestinate; as if it were true, that he that is justified, either cannot sin any more, or, if he do sin, that he ought to promise himself an assured repentance; for except by special revelation, it cannot be known whom God hath chosen unto Himself. (source)

That some people are practically assured heaven should not be a cause of concern since God gives everyone sufficient grace to be saved.

Jeanne S · #8 May 5, '12, 2:49 pm

How about the innocents?For example,my youngest brother was born profoundly mentally and physically handicapped.His IQ was probably that of a five months old.He was baptized and lived to the age of thirty eight. Given he was completely incapable of guile,or sin,I like to think he went straight to heaven upon his death.

thistle · #9 May 7, '12, 6:07 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeanne S

How about the innocents?For example,my youngest brother was born profoundly mentally and physically handicapped.His IQ was probably that of a five months old.He was baptized and lived to the age of thirty eight. Given he was completely incapable of guile,or sin,I like to think he went straight to heaven upon his death.

Baptism removes both original sin and personal sin. In the case of your brother from what you say he would then be incapable of mortally sinning and so would be saved at death.
However, I don't think this has anything to do with predestination because a person without mental incapacity would be saved if they die immediately after baptism, and a person who goes to Confession and has their sins absolved would be saved if they die immediately after Confession.

Crumpy · #10 May 7, '12, 8:49 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Todd Easton

Yes. Free will notwithstanding, it is possible for God to give such a superabundance of grace to an individual as to make it practically impossible for him not to die in a state of grace. However, in its Decree on Justification, chapter 12, the Council of Trent cautions against anyone presuming to be among such persons:

No one, moreover, so long as he is in this mortal life, ought so far to presume as regards the secret mystery of divine predestination, as to determine for certain that he is assuredly in the number of the predestinate; as if it were true, that he that is justified, either cannot sin any more, or, if he do sin, that he ought to promise himself an assured repentance; for except by special revelation, it cannot be known whom God hath chosen unto Himself. (source)

That some people are practically assured heaven should not be a cause of concern since God gives everyone sufficient grace to be saved.

Thanks, that's a very helpful explanation from Trent. It's always amazing to me (although it shouldn't be) how smart those people were back then. they may not have had indoor plumbing but they knew their faith.

Jerry-Jet · #11 May 8, '12, 8:46 am

Catholics believe in the predestination of the elect but only God knows who the elect are unless He grants this knowledge to a person by special private revelation.

If you don't believe me then ask St. Thomas Aquinas.

Catholics don't believe that anyone is predestined for Hell--they go there by their own choice.

And all who are saved cooperate with God in their salvation.

feed me · #12 May 9, '12, 8:41 pm

I kinda have to say yes and no. I do remember somewhere in the bible where it talks about the potter and the clay, and I think it also says something that certain people were made for destruction, as part of the plan of God. Now I am not fully certain, but I will read again, and if somebody can, enlighten me on it.

Ubenedictus · #13 May 10, '12, 5:38 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BListon

Were some of the people in the scriptures predestined to heaven from birth according to God's plan? Ex. The Blessed Virgin was concieved without original sin at birth, so she could give birth to the Son of God. Was she also predestined for heaven at birth? Another example, was St. Peter predestined, because God chose to give him the keys to the kingdom? Was this all part of God's pre determined plan?

yeah i think so. God forsaw all their decision and he knew with infalliability that they will be in heaven.
Ubenedictus

Theophorus · #14 May 10, '12, 6:10 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ubenedictus

yeah i think so. God forsaw all their decision and he knew with infalliability that they will be in heaven.
Ubenedictus

That's not predestination though, as they still had to co-operate with God's grace in order to be saved. God's knows us so well He knows what we will choose, He doesn't make it impossible for us not to choose it-which is what predestination is. No one is automatically bound for heaven or hell.

Jerry-Jet · #15 May 10, '12, 9:00 am

Catholics DO believe in the predestination of the Elect.

The word predestination is in the bible--even Catholic translations of the bible.

You can't act like that word and it's truth isn't there.

The Catholic Church teaches predestination of the Elect.

It also teaches the freewill of man.

Both are true!

But since we don't KNOW if we are the Elect or not--only God knows--we must obey St. Pauls and "Work out our salvation with fear and trembling".

But the other side of the coin is that Catholics also believe in the divine Mercy of Jesus.

Catholics BOTH trust Jesus AND fear and tremble.

The truth is BOTH!