EDITED: Questions About Marriage with Lack of Form

[x1980x]

I have been told on one hand that if a Catholic gets married outside the CC without an appropriate dispensation or other permission, then that marriage is null.

I have also been told that no "marriage" is considered null in the eyes of the CC unless and until the Annulment process has gone to completion and the marriage has formally been declared null by the tribunal - every marriage is presumed to be 100% valid until and unless a decree has been made, even if the most dimwitted individual holding an advanced degree in hyperbolic topology would believe it was null - ordinary people simply don't have the authority to pass judgment on marriage nullity outside of the context of the Tribunal.

Are these statements both true? I see a lot of posts here about Catholics who have gotten married outside the CC and now want to "Convalidate" their marriage. Wouldn't another option be to simply decline to seek an annulment (considering as nobody but the couple themselves are allowed to file for it) and trust the CC when it says that all marriages are presumed valid until and unless they are proven null? The "marriage" would then be presumed valid, and the couple would never have to deal with the issues.

Is there an obligation to file a case with the Tribunal if you suspect that your "marriage" could possibly be null?

[Ancient1]

The new marriage would not necessarily be presumed valid. You might be told at that point to stop "sleeping" with your (new) spouse and apply for an annulment before the marriage can be "blessed." I think you would rather deal with your obligations up front, eh? Sounds like you are jumping thru hoops to avoid your responsibility to yourself, you former spouse and your future spouse. Forget the logic games and just do it right. See your priest about applying to the tribunal for an annulment. Unless you've got a humdinger of a situation, it's really not complicated or lengthy in most dioceses.

[Phemie]

Originally Posted by x1980x

I have been told on one hand that if a Catholic gets married outside the CC without an appropriate dispensation or other permission, then that marriage is null.

I have also been told that no "marriage" is considered null in the eyes of the CC unless and until the Annulment process has gone to completion and the marriage has formally been declared null by the tribunal - every marriage is presumed to be 100% valid until and unless a decree has been made, even if the most dimwitted individual holding an advanced degree in hyperbolic topology would believe it was null - ordinary people simply don't have the authority to pass judgment on marriage nullity outside of the context of the Tribunal.

Are these statements both true? I see a lot of posts here about Catholics who have gotten married outside the CC and now want to "Convalidate" their marriage. Wouldn't another option be to simply decline to seek an annulment (considering as nobody but the couple themselves are allowed to file for it) and trust the CC when it says that all marriages are presumed valid until and unless they are proven null? The "marriage" would then be presumed valid, and the couple would never have to deal with the issues.

Is there an obligation to file a case with the Tribunal if you suspect that your "marriage" could possibly be null?

No, marriages of Catholics celebrated outside the Church without dispensation are not presumed valid. That was settled in the '40 when the canon saying that a putative marriage (one which is presumed valid but turns out not to be) was one which at least one party had presumed valid when it was celebrated was questioned. A dubium was submitted to ask whether that meant 'any celebration' and the response was that for a Catholic it had to be celebrated according to canonical form.

A Catholic whose marriage was celebrated outside the Church without a dispensation from form does not require an annulment. A simple showing of the pertinent documents (certificate of baptism, record of marriage and divorce decree) will prove freedom to marry. That may mean submitting the documents to the diocesan Marriage Tribunal but it could also simply mean showing them to the priest when you're preparing for marriage.

[1ke]

Originally Posted by x1980x

I have been told on one hand that if a Catholic gets married outside the CC without an appropriate dispensation or other permission, then that marriage is null.

This is correct.

Originally Posted by x1980x

I have also been told that no "marriage" is considered null in the eyes of the CC unless and until the Annulment process has gone to completion and the marriage has formally been declared null by the tribunal - every marriage is presumed to be 100% valid until and unless a decree has been made, even if the most dimwitted individual holding an advanced degree in hyperbolic topology would believe it was null - ordinary people simply don't have the authority to pass judgment on marriage nullity outside of the context of the Tribunal.

This is not correct. It is a misunderstanding of Canon 1060.

Originally Posted by x1980x

Are these statements both true?

It is true that a civil marriage contracted under the circumstances of lack of Catholic form without dispensation is not valid.

It is also true that in the US and Canada, one must complete an administrative documentation process for this attempted marriage to be declared free to marry. This is not a decree of nullity, but it does go through the Tribunal.

It is also true that in other countries, such as Europe, lack of form marriages do not go through any process at all, and the priest who completes the premarital paperwork has no need to do anything with such a marriage.

Originally Posted by x1980x

I see a lot of posts here about Catholics who have gotten married outside the CC and now want to "Convalidate" their marriage. Wouldn't another option be to simply decline to seek an annulment (considering as nobody but the couple themselves are allowed to file for it) and trust the CC when it says that all marriages are presumed valid until and unless they are proven null?

No.

A couple in such a marriage are in a state of sin and cannot receive the sacraments until they convalidate their marriage through simple convalidation or radical sanation.

Again, there is no presumption of validity for such a marriage.

Can. 1108 §1. Only those marriages are valid which are contracted before the local ordinary, pastor, or a priest or deacon delegated by either of them, who assist, and before two witnesses according to the rules expressed in the following canons and without prejudice to the exceptions mentioned in cann. ⇒ 144, ⇒ 1112, §1, ⇒ 1116, and ⇒ 1127, §§1-2.

Can. 1160 A marriage which is null because of defect of form must be contracted anew in canonical form in order to become valid, without prejudice to the prescript of ⇒ can. 1127, §2.

Originally Posted by x1980x

The "marriage" would then be presumed valid, and the couple would never have to deal with the issues.

Nope. Again, total misunderstanding on the part of whoever told you the information above.

Originally Posted by x1980x

Is there an obligation to file a case with the Tribunal if you suspect that your "marriage" could possibly be null?

No, the opposite in fact. One has an obligation to convalidate it. If one becomes aware that there is an impediment or defect rendering the marriage invalid, one is to convalidate it. See:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P46.HTM

[1ke]

Originally Posted by Ancient1

The new marriage would not necessarily be presumed valid. You might be told at that point to stop "sleeping" with your (new) spouse and apply for an annulment before the marriage can be "blessed." I think you would rather deal with your obligations up front, eh? Sounds like you are jumping thru hoops to avoid your responsibility to yourself, you former spouse and your future spouse. Forget the logic games and just do it right. See your priest about applying to the tribunal for an annulment. Unless you've got a humdinger of a situation, it's really not complicated or lengthy in most dioceses.

You have misunderstood the question. This is not about an attempted remarriage. This question is about a marriage between two people-- at least one of whom is Catholic-- who are otherwise free to marry, but who marry outside Catholic form without dispensation.