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  #1  
Old May 5, '12, 11:02 am
Jaypeeto4 Jaypeeto4 is offline
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Default A Sin to Steal from Thieves? Wondering...

I was wondering about something.
I know that if you discover that someone stole your car, and you find your car in that person's yard, you have a right to get that car back, because he or she, that person,
took it without your permission.
That, of course, is clear cut.

But that got me wondering (and I have seen others ask this question on other forums too, rhetorically),
IS it a sin to steal from a person or persons, whom you know
is/are, stealing not only from you, but from many other people??
i.e., is it a sin to steal from a person or persons who are habitual thieves
((even if there are no human laws against their particular form of thieving, which GOD knows for sure **is** thieving, even if the nation or state has not addressed it)) ??

I know stealing is wrong, but like every other issue, there are many variables.
For example, there is "no salvation outside the Catholic Church"
That is 100% true. But we know, for sure, that there are many variables that must be
applied to that concrete statement, that absolutely true statement, and the Church itself teaches that, in fact. LUMEN GENTIUM teaches plainly that there are many people outside of the visible parameters of the Roman Catholic Church who can be, and many times are, in the state of saving grace and that, if they despite their ignorance of Catholic doctrinal facts, do follow their conscience AS IT is prompted by the Holy Spirit, they can indeed reach salvation. So, the concrete, 100% true statement that there is "no salvation outside the Catholic Church" nonetheless has many variables.

We have a bully at work, a very vicious bully, who has, through intimidation, stolen tens of thousands of dollars in commission that rightfully belongs to me and my co-workers, and they for some reason, won't fire her ((although I do know for a fact that she, this vicious and purely Evil woman, has threatened these managers that if she is terminated, she will drag every last one of them into court, my god she is totally evil and worse, tells people that she, this malicious, hateful, habitually thieving bully, is a Catholic, which embarasses me and the other Catholics at work to death )).
Would it be a sin for her victims to steal from her what she has stolen from them, since
they have no official, legal recourse against her? ((Bullying is not addressed in Federal Law with regard to workplace bullying, unless you can possibly make it fall under Harassment, which IS officially Illegal. Her form of stealing from her co-workers, also, is not officially addressed in the Law, either, so we have no Legal recourse, none, to get back the vast money she has stolen from us by bullying us out of our sales****)).

****this she is able to do because company policy forbids us to fight at all
in front of customers. So, after we have helped a customer (that she initially greeted, maybe five hours previously, but thereafter totally ignored) for an hour and are now ringing them up (for sales of sometimes thousands of dollars) she Always, WITHOUT FAIL, appears at the register, loudly demanding "her" sale and customer, stealing from us the fruits of our Labor, not her labor, for she did none, and we can't fight her in front of the customer, can't find a manager right away, so she rings it up under her number, gets our sometimes $100 or more of commission, the customer, perplexed, leaves, and it's our word against hers, we have no "proof" that she stole anything, which she definitely did. This woman again, is pure Evil. I have stopped praying for her. I had masses said for her, enrolled her in prayer leagues, everything, to obtain graces for her, and she just gets more and more evil every day, so I have given up on her. Someone else can pray for her. I've enrolled her in the prayer groups (and paid the enrollment fees), so let their prayers avail for her, if anyone's prayers even can, because I am sick of wasting my prayer time on this willful wicked woman. Sorry for that rambling, but I'm frustrated and sick and a nervous wreck and in this horrific economy can't afford to quit my job, nor can my co-workers, to get away from her.

I don't steal, but I'm wondering if it would be sinful for any of my co-workers to "recover" their losses to her by, say, taking her "even exchanges" under their number, which would cause her to lose the commission she earned ((or often DIDN'T **rightfully** earn)) from the item being even-exchanged when she rang it up.??

Thanks all!!
Jaypeeto4

Last edited by Jaypeeto4; May 5, '12 at 11:04 am. Reason: TYPOS
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  #2  
Old May 5, '12, 12:01 pm
Aeden Aeden is offline
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Default Re: A Sin to Steal from Thieves? Wondering...

I'm no expert, but I'd say that, if the person is stealing from you, you could probably take back the stuff that was stolen and no more. If he's already turned it into things like cars or other items, I'd say you would have the right to steal back whatever he bought using your money.
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Old May 5, '12, 12:09 pm
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agnes therese agnes therese is offline
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Default Re: A Sin to Steal from Thieves? Wondering...

Stealing is stealing, no matter who you're stealing from. We don't have the right to decide to appoint ourselves to be a one-person police force, judge, and jury.
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  #4  
Old May 5, '12, 12:23 pm
meltzerboy meltzerboy is offline
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Default Re: A Sin to Steal from Thieves? Wondering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaypeeto4 View Post
I was wondering about something.
I know that if you discover that someone stole your car, and you find your car in that person's yard, you have a right to get that car back, because he or she, that person,
took it without your permission.
That, of course, is clear cut.

But that got me wondering (and I have seen others ask this question on other forums too, rhetorically),
IS it a sin to steal from a person or persons, whom you know
is/are, stealing not only from you, but from many other people??
i.e., is it a sin to steal from a person or persons who are habitual thieves
((even if there are no human laws against their particular form of thieving, which GOD knows for sure **is** thieving, even if the nation or state has not addressed it)) ??

I know stealing is wrong, but like every other issue, there are many variables.
For example, there is "no salvation outside the Catholic Church"
That is 100% true. But we know, for sure, that there are many variables that must be
applied to that concrete statement, that absolutely true statement, and the Church itself teaches that, in fact. LUMEN GENTIUM teaches plainly that there are many people outside of the visible parameters of the Roman Catholic Church who can be, and many times are, in the state of saving grace and that, if they despite their ignorance of Catholic doctrinal facts, do follow their conscience AS IT is prompted by the Holy Spirit, they can indeed reach salvation. So, the concrete, 100% true statement that there is "no salvation outside the Catholic Church" nonetheless has many variables.

We have a bully at work, a very vicious bully, who has, through intimidation, stolen tens of thousands of dollars in commission that rightfully belongs to me and my co-workers, and they for some reason, won't fire her ((although I do know for a fact that she, this vicious and purely Evil woman, has threatened these managers that if she is terminated, she will drag every last one of them into court, my god she is totally evil and worse, tells people that she, this malicious, hateful, habitually thieving bully, is a Catholic, which embarasses me and the other Catholics at work to death )).
Would it be a sin for her victims to steal from her what she has stolen from them, since
they have no official, legal recourse against her? ((Bullying is not addressed in Federal Law with regard to workplace bullying, unless you can possibly make it fall under Harassment, which IS officially Illegal. Her form of stealing from her co-workers, also, is not officially addressed in the Law, either, so we have no Legal recourse, none, to get back the vast money she has stolen from us by bullying us out of our sales****)).

****this she is able to do because company policy forbids us to fight at all
in front of customers. So, after we have helped a customer (that she initially greeted, maybe five hours previously, but thereafter totally ignored) for an hour and are now ringing them up (for sales of sometimes thousands of dollars) she Always, WITHOUT FAIL, appears at the register, loudly demanding "her" sale and customer, stealing from us the fruits of our Labor, not her labor, for she did none, and we can't fight her in front of the customer, can't find a manager right away, so she rings it up under her number, gets our sometimes $100 or more of commission, the customer, perplexed, leaves, and it's our word against hers, we have no "proof" that she stole anything, which she definitely did. This woman again, is pure Evil. I have stopped praying for her. I had masses said for her, enrolled her in prayer leagues, everything, to obtain graces for her, and she just gets more and more evil every day, so I have given up on her. Someone else can pray for her. I've enrolled her in the prayer groups (and paid the enrollment fees), so let their prayers avail for her, if anyone's prayers even can, because I am sick of wasting my prayer time on this willful wicked woman. Sorry for that rambling, but I'm frustrated and sick and a nervous wreck and in this horrific economy can't afford to quit my job, nor can my co-workers, to get away from her.

I don't steal, but I'm wondering if it would be sinful for any of my co-workers to "recover" their losses to her by, say, taking her "even exchanges" under their number, which would cause her to lose the commission she earned ((or often DIDN'T **rightfully** earn)) from the item being even-exchanged when she rang it up.??

Thanks all!!
Jaypeeto4
Jewish teaching says yes, even to retrieve one's own property. There is a story in the Babylonian Talmud about a rabbi who stole the wine from his tenants since they were stealing from him by not leaving him any vines. As a result, the rabbi's own wine turned sour. The moral is that if one steals from another, even what is rightfully yours, one learns to taste the remorse involved in behaving as a thief.
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  #5  
Old May 5, '12, 12:48 pm
Jaypeeto4 Jaypeeto4 is offline
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Default Re: A Sin to Steal from Thieves? Wondering...

In reply to the above post, I would offer the following opinion:

to take what is ***rightfully yours***, cannot, by definition,
even conceivably be stealing. The "rightfully" establishes this fact.
If you have MY car in your yard, I have the right to retrieve it
by ANY means short of killing you. And I will.

But that is clear-cut.

The situation I described above is much more complicated.
But taking back what, clearly, is "rightfully" mine cannot, by definition,
be stealing. I do not mean to insult the esteemed rabbis,
but that is clearly bad advice.

Also, I have to disagree with the statement that "stealing is stealing" no matter who you are stealing from ((even if they stole it from YOU first)). That, by definition,
cannot be true, because it does not correspond to reality. Remember, if something,
say your PURSE, is "rightfully yours" and some thug takes it, you have the right to get your purse back by any means short of killing him (we do not have the right, biblically, to kill a thief). And that is the case even if a cop refuses to HELP you get it back.
If I caught you taking my paycheck, I have every right to retrieve it from you by any means necessary short of killing you or doing serious and irreparable physical harm to you.
Because it is MY check, not yours.
We take a person to court to get back stolen money (one of our managers at my company embezzled over $500,000 from the company and only stopped when caught, she would have taken many millions, the company got lucky and discovered what she was doing, thats all) because the person will refuse to give it back unless we force them to ((in this situation, it is not as simple as saying "Gimme back my $500,000 !!" because the money has been squirreled away in banks, and they are NOT going to comply unless forced to and will deny that they took it in the first place. THIS is one situation where we, truly, cannot play judge and jury and have to HAVE a judge and jury get us our cash back. But christians are forbidden by the Holy Spirit, speaking thru St. Paul, to take OTHER Christians to Court to get justice from them if they defraud us, because that brings scandal and shame on the name of the church and of Christ. Too many of us forget that, and sue our fellow Catholics in court in front of nonbelievers. Paul condemned this in the strongest of terms)).

I was asking about a much more complex situation, but still, based on the same principle.
The person doing the stealing has no **right** to have it, regardless of what any judge or jury might or might not say. Even the church says that Laws that command or allow the deliberate commiting of wickedness, have no morally-binding force on Christians.

Thanks for your replies!!! I might disagree with some of them,
but I DO appreciate the sincere thoughts that went into them, that was very gracious of
all of you.
Agnes Therese's reply was the most interesting, and I would like if possible some Catholic moral theology to back it up. I don't agree with the conclusion, but respect the sincerity with which it was stated, thanks again!!
Love to all of you,
Jaypeeto4
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  #6  
Old May 5, '12, 1:00 pm
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constantconvert constantconvert is offline
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Default Re: A Sin to Steal from Thieves? Wondering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaypeeto4 View Post
Her form of stealing from her co-workers, also, is not officially addressed in the Law, either, so we have no Legal recourse, none, to get back the vast money she has stolen from us by bullying us out of our sales****)).

****this she is able to do because company policy forbids us to fight at all
in front of customers. So, after we have helped a customer (that she initially greeted, maybe five hours previously, but thereafter totally ignored) for an hour and are now ringing them up (for sales of sometimes thousands of dollars) she Always, WITHOUT FAIL, appears at the register, loudly demanding "her" sale and customer, stealing from us the fruits of our Labor, not her labor, for she did none, and we can't fight her in front of the customer, can't find a manager right away, so she rings it up under her number, gets our sometimes $100 or more of commission, the customer, perplexed, leaves, and it's our word against hers, we have no "proof" that she stole anything, which she definitely did.
I am sorry that you are in such a difficult situation at work. Bullying is so frustrating, and can make you feel you are so powerless.

It would be a sin for you to steal from her. Even stealing that is justified is still stealing.

I would suggest that when she demands her sale you tell her in a very low voice, very calmly "I'm sorry, you are mistaken. This is my customer." And then continue ringing up the sale. DO NOT fight with her because you could lose your job. DO NOT argue with her. DO NOT even say anything else to her-- even though she will have plenty to say to you! Just ignore her and finish ringing up your customer. Chat with the customer, and completely ignore her. The only way she is going to be able to get your commission is to physically push you out of the way, which, if she's smart she won't do. If she's dumb, she will then be fired for assault.

The main tactic with people like this is to be very very calm, and say as little as possible to them, while going about your business. Do not engage with her, at all. That is how to get your power back. If you do this for a couple of sales, she will back off, and others may be encouraged to stand up for themselves as well. You need that money. Do not let someone steal it from you.
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  #7  
Old May 5, '12, 2:31 pm
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agnes therese agnes therese is offline
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Default Re: A Sin to Steal from Thieves? Wondering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaypeeto4 View Post

Agnes Therese's reply was the most interesting, and I would like if possible some Catholic moral theology to back it up. I don't agree with the conclusion, but respect the sincerity with which it was stated, thanks again!!
Love to all of you,
Jaypeeto4
Before moral theology, how about we start with plain old common sense? If everyone decides individually that other persons are guilty of something, and I am going to punish them for it, where does that leave us? In chaos, that's where. Vigilantes never do any good, and often end up punishing the innocent in their blind zeal.

In your specific case at work -- having worked many years in retail, I suspect your "exchange" idea is against the rules, and would end up with you and your co-workers being disciplined or even fired. Even if you weren't found out, do you really want to let her draw you down to her level? An eye for an eye, dishonesty for dishonesty? Won't it just complete her victory if she makes you just like her?

There is nothing wrong with seeking justice through the proper channels. But I can't find where Jesus said "blessed are they who retaliate."

And yes, I do know what it's like to be treated unfairly and have no recourse. But I refuse to live in the Dungeon of Resentment ("Rose is Rose" comic strip reference, for those who don't know). It's dark in there; the walls are damp and the air is stale. I prefer it out here in the sunlight. You will, too. I promise.
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  #8  
Old May 5, '12, 2:49 pm
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Kouyate42 Kouyate42 is offline
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Default Re: A Sin to Steal from Thieves? Wondering...

I'd go with the notion that intention does not render an unlawful act lawful. Stealing cannot be transformed into a 'good' action because the person you are stealing from is a thief themselves.
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  #9  
Old May 5, '12, 3:48 pm
Aeden Aeden is offline
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Default Re: A Sin to Steal from Thieves? Wondering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kouyate42 View Post
I'd go with the notion that intention does not render an unlawful act lawful. Stealing cannot be transformed into a 'good' action because the person you are stealing from is a thief themselves.
That's true, but stealing is defined as: to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right, especially secretly or by force: A pickpocket stole his watch.

Thus, taking back something you own is not stealing, as it is rightfully yours. If the Church has a teaching on this sort of issue, please tell me, as I am confused as to why there is so much dissent. If somebody steals something from you, take it back! The issue is the terminology used here, to say steal it back is inaccurate, it is taking back what is yours, not stealing it back.
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Old May 5, '12, 3:59 pm
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Scapegoat Scapegoat is offline
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Default Re: A Sin to Steal from Thieves? Wondering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by agnes therese View Post
Before moral theology, how about we start with plain old common sense? If everyone decides individually that other persons are guilty of something, and I am going to punish them for it, where does that leave us? In chaos, that's where. Vigilantes never do any good, and often end up punishing the innocent in their blind zeal.

In your specific case at work -- having worked many years in retail, I suspect your "exchange" idea is against the rules, and would end up with you and your co-workers being disciplined or even fired. Even if you weren't found out, do you really want to let her draw you down to her level? An eye for an eye, dishonesty for dishonesty? Won't it just complete her victory if she makes you just like her?

There is nothing wrong with seeking justice through the proper channels. But I can't find where Jesus said "blessed are they who retaliate."

And yes, I do know what it's like to be treated unfairly and have no recourse. But I refuse to live in the Dungeon of Resentment ("Rose is Rose" comic strip reference, for those who don't know). It's dark in there; the walls are damp and the air is stale. I prefer it out here in the sunlight. You will, too. I promise.


Sometimes these are signs to go looking for a new job: especially if management is indifferent to what is going on.
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Old May 5, '12, 6:46 pm
Jaypeeto4 Jaypeeto4 is offline
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Default Re: A Sin to Steal from Thieves? Wondering...

The main tactic with people like this is to be very very calm, and say as little as possible to them, while going about your business. Do not engage with her, at all. That is how to get your power back. If you do this for a couple of sales, she will back off, and others may be encouraged to stand up for themselves as well. You need that money.

Hi. Please understand, she will not only bully you and demand the sale, she will tell the customer "Let's go," GRAB the merch and walk him or her to another register.
This person is a bully par excellence.
Moreover, having worked with her for many months and experienced this constantly,
and watched her other evil behaviors as well,
I have concluded, having read several articles on the subject,
that she is a Sociopath, or at the very least, exhibits many of the traits (not a few)
of a Sociopath. This is very, very bad.

I do not have the luxury of ignorning her or ignoring this.
First of all, when you ignore her and ring up YOUR sale, she retaliates.
The other day, she retaliated the MINUTE I got into work, provoked a scene and
then accused me to a MANAGER, who is new and not familiar with her habitual evil antics,
of maliciously interfering with her trying to help a customer. She is a despicable, evil, totally evil, ((word that I cannot use here on these forums)).

I totally disagree with those who say, stealing is stealing or that to take back something rightfully yours, is vigilante-ism, UNLESS you use violent means or do physical harm or cause the death of the person. Also, by definition, taking back what is MINE ***cannot*** be stealing under any sense of the word. It isn't HERS, it is MINE.
If my car is in your yard, I am going over there to get it from you, be prepared, I'm going to.
Now, if you resist me taking back what is lawfully mine,
I am not going to assault you, I am going to call the police, so as not to sink to your level.
But my going over there to get what you have taken from me,
does not constitute me in any sense "sinking to your level."

I just will not resort to violence.

But the more responses I'm seeing here, with little or no church teaching citations,
I'm concluding that the Church would not condemn my co-workers taking her even exchanges, since she has stolen tons of theirs (which, by the way, can be documented, because all retailers are required by law (IRS especially) to retain all their transactions records for at least seven years.

I thank you, all of you, for all of your responses, very much.
But I have to disagree with some of them, because though offered with sincere conviction, I've seen little to back up the responses, scripturally or magisterially.

Another form of theft we can discuss sometime is USURY, which is rampant in our society today as well. But that's a whole "nother" can o' worms. And our country's Laws are set up for the benefit of the Usurers. In fact, they own the politicians who write the Laws, as most belong to the Banking Elite's world-government organizations such as the Council on Foreign Relations and the Trilateral Commission, all pure Rockefeller interests
advancing that family's, and their European banking families's, agendas.

One last thing, I agree that under normal circumstances, if one cannot get any relief from a habitual bully, one should look for another job.
However, in this unbelievably awful economy (and in South Florida it is especially bad, the unemployment rate is twice the PHONY 8.1 % rate nationally proclaimed by the Media)
neither I nor my co-workers have the luxury of getting another job. It would take months to find one, if we could find one.
I'll say one thing: they had better not fire any of my co-workers, because some of us have documentation that she has been committing wrong acts using company equipment, and that this has been reported to executives, upper level, who have (perhaps out of fear of being sued by her) kept her in their employ. We have copies of the emails sent, detailing her dastardly activities. If any of my co-workers receive a "retaliatory firing," you can bet that these emails will be given to the proper authorities as evidence of malice. None of us wants to destroy this woman, however, nor our managers. We are giving her, and them, ample space to settle this matter decently. She, however, WON'T,
and they have, again I believe out of fear of her threats against them,
refused to terminate her ((though people who are 10 minutes late too many times, ARE being terminated, which tells you where these managers's priorities lie, it ain't with "doing the right thing," that's for sure.

God love all of you.

Last edited by Jaypeeto4; May 5, '12 at 6:55 pm. Reason: TYPOS
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Old May 5, '12, 7:02 pm
Jaypeeto4 Jaypeeto4 is offline
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Default Re: A Sin to Steal from Thieves? Wondering...

Aeden, your post is the one which, I think, makes the most common sense.
It stands to reason that if I lift your wallet full of money and credit cards,
you have every right to take it back from me, even if you have to subdue me to do
so. You just have no right to kill me, that's all.
Your wallet is YOUR wallet, and it does not become "mine" merely because
I now have it in my hands. Therefore, your forcibly taking it back from my
hands, cannot, not just isn't, but CANNOT be, stealing it.

Stealing is taking what ISN'T yours. That wallet IS yours.
It has no business being in MY hands.

Peace.
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Old May 6, '12, 5:13 am
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agnes therese agnes therese is offline
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Default Re: A Sin to Steal from Thieves? Wondering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaypeeto4 View Post
But my going over there to get what you have taken from me,
does not constitute me in any sense "sinking to your level."
That depends on how you do it. If you go about it by violating your employer's rules and policies, you are indeed sinking to her level. But that's entirely your decision.
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