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  #196  
Old May 7, '12, 6:22 am
JharekCarnelian JharekCarnelian is offline
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Default Re: Church teaching on Islam

Paul is talking of pagans and specifically referencing the history of Israel. I fail to see the relevance of the chapter and verse to this discussion.
  #197  
Old May 7, '12, 6:30 am
rinnie rinnie is offline
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Default Re: Church teaching on Islam

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Originally Posted by jam070406 View Post
If Saul had the faith of Abraham why did he need to be converted?
Because Father Abraham did not reveal to us that Jesus Christ was the word become flesh. Jesus did.

And simply because Jesus fullfilled the O.T. Matt 5:17

If Abraham gave us the fullness of the truth why did Christ say he came to fullfill the Old law.

Christ gave us a new standard higher then the old.

It was the word that became flesh and died for our sins that made it possible for us to enter heaven. Even our faith or belief could not save us. We still had sin as Abraham had sin.

If Abraham did not have sin he would not have died. Christ told you he came to die so we could have eternal life.

But just because Abraham prayed to the one true God, and taught us to pray to the One true God did not mean we could have eternal life. It took Jesus to take away our sins.

The O.Law and the New law has nothing to do with the one True God.
  #198  
Old May 7, '12, 6:33 am
jam070406 jam070406 is offline
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Default Re: Church teaching on Islam

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Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian View Post
You're moving the goalposts, the question we were debating was not whether he had the faith of Abraham but whether he worshipped the one God who created all men. The Church itself admits that while Muslims say they are Abrahamic that can be questioned but you keep throwing in a falsed dilemma where Abrahamic faith equals worshipping the one God. It's a red herring as there are other groups such as Sikhs who are not Abrahamic but I don't see anyone debating that as monotheists they worship the one true God.
You are correct that it is questionable whether Muslims have the faith of Abraham, even though some on here INSIST like it's divinely revealed Truth that they do.
It can be demonstrated from Scripture and Tradition that they DO NOT.

It can also be argued that when the Church claims that Muslims worship the one true God, it can be taken to mean that they THINK they do.

Just like Paul, and later Saints like St. John Chrysostom, says about those that thought they were offering worship to God, in fact, were offering worship to demons.
Further as Paul says, and the Church Teaches, that the Faith of Abraham comes to individuals in belief of Jesus Christ.
  #199  
Old May 7, '12, 6:35 am
JharekCarnelian JharekCarnelian is offline
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Default Re: Church teaching on Islam

Quote:
It can also be argued that when the Church claims that Muslims worship the one true God, it can be taken to mean that they THINK they do.
Demonstrate it then. You have singularly failed to do so till this point.
  #200  
Old May 7, '12, 6:38 am
rinnie rinnie is offline
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Default Re: Church teaching on Islam

Quote:
Originally Posted by jam070406 View Post
Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 10:20 that gentiles didn't offer worship to God but to demons.
He says in Galatians 3:14 that the blessing of Abraham comes to them in Jesus.
Exactly and this is exactly what the church teaches.

The Church of Christ acknowledges that in God's plan of salvation the beginnings of its faith and election are to be found in the partiarchs, Moses and the prophets.

It Professes that all Christ's faithful, who as people of fairth are daughters and sons of Abraham Gal,3:7 are INCLUDED in the same partiarch's call and that the salvation of the church is MYSTICALLY PREFIGURED in the exodus of Gods's chosen people from the land of bondage.

If you read the Vatican 11 constitutions decrees declarations you can read this more clearly.

This is why in our faith we proclaim that the Church is a mystery of our faith. It is hard to see for us at times how other faiths are somehow incorporated into the One true Church, But they are,

Like we are also taught that all people that are baptised in the name of the Trinity belong to the Catholic Church. Tell a Protestant that one. They will fight you tooth and nail. But its the truth.
  #201  
Old May 7, '12, 6:39 am
jam070406 jam070406 is offline
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Default Re: Church teaching on Islam

Quote:
Originally Posted by rinnie View Post
Because Father Abraham did not reveal to us that Jesus Christ was the word become flesh. Jesus did.

And simply because Jesus fullfilled the O.T. Matt 5:17

If Abraham gave us the fullness of the truth why did Christ say he came to fullfill the Old law.

Christ gave us a new standard higher then the old.

It was the word that became flesh and died for our sins that made it possible for us to enter heaven. Even our faith or belief could not save us. We still had sin as Abraham had sin.

If Abraham did not have sin he would not have died. Christ told you he came to die so we could have eternal life.

But just because Abraham prayed to the one true God, and taught us to pray to the One true God did not mean we could have eternal life. It took Jesus to take away our sins.

The O.Law and the New law has nothing to do with the one True God.
Why do keep going back prior to Jesus? Jesus IS the Faith of Abraham. Period.
He revealed it, Muslims reject it. Just like the Jews in which Jesus was talking to cannot fall back on Abraham, neither can Muslims. The fact that someone may be a decendent of Abraham no longer matters. Jesus told us this.
Before Abraham I AM!
There is no longer Jew nor Gentile. There are those that accept Jesus and those that reject Jesus.
  #202  
Old May 7, '12, 6:43 am
jam070406 jam070406 is offline
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Default Re: Church teaching on Islam

Quote:
Originally Posted by rinnie View Post
Exactly and this is exactly what the church teaches.

The Church of Christ acknowledges that in God's plan of salvation the beginnings of its faith and election are to be found in the partiarchs, Moses and the prophets.

It Professes that all Christ's faithful, who as people of fairth are daughters and sons of Abraham Gal,3:7 are INCLUDED in the same partiarch's call and that the salvation of the church is MYSTICALLY PREFIGURED in the exodus of Gods's chosen people from the land of bondage.

If you read the Vatican 11 constitutions decrees declarations you can read this more clearly.

This is why in our faith we proclaim that the Church is a mystery of our faith. It is hard to see for us at times how other faiths are somehow incorporated into the One true Church, But they are,

Like we are also taught that all people that are baptised in the name of the Trinity belong to the Catholic Church. Tell a Protestant that one. They will fight you tooth and nail. But its the truth.
And yet you continue to make excuse for those that reject Jesus. Claiming relation to Abraham WILL NOT SAVE THEM. Jesus tells us this in the Gospels to the Jews that try to do that very same thing.
  #203  
Old May 7, '12, 6:43 am
rinnie rinnie is offline
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Default Re: Church teaching on Islam

Quote:
Originally Posted by jam070406 View Post
You are correct that it is questionable whether Muslims have the faith of Abraham, even though some on here INSIST like it's divinely revealed Truth that they do.
It can be demonstrated from Scripture and Tradition that they DO NOT.

It can also be argued that when the Church claims that Muslims worship the one true God, it can be taken to mean that they THINK they do.

Just like Paul, and later Saints like St. John Chrysostom, says about those that thought they were offering worship to God, in fact, were offering worship to demons.
Further as Paul says, and the Church Teaches, that the Faith of Abraham comes to individuals in belief of Jesus Christ.
This is not what the Church teaches.

It is stated in the Vatican Council 11

They worship God who is ONE Living and subsistent merciful and almighty the creator of heaven and earth.

It does not state he Church believes they may or might or could. It state they do.

Why would the council state the CC rejects NOTHING what is true, And why would it state they have a High Regard for the Muslims for the God they worship, if they worshipped a false god?
  #204  
Old May 7, '12, 6:52 am
jam070406 jam070406 is offline
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Default Re: Church teaching on Islam

Quote:
Originally Posted by rinnie View Post
This is not what the Church teaches.

It is stated in the Vatican Council 11

They worship God who is ONE Living and subsistent merciful and almighty the creator of heaven and earth.

It does not state he Church believes they may or might or could. It state they do.

Why would the council state the CC rejects NOTHING what is true, And why would it state they have a High Regard for the Muslims for the God they worship, if they worshipped a false god?
Because Rinnie, it's flowery language to affirm their belief in monotheism as a preparation to break their bondage to a false religion and bring them to Jesus and true worship which is only found in the sacrifice of the Holy Mass.
  #205  
Old May 7, '12, 7:05 am
rinnie rinnie is offline
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Default Re: Church teaching on Islam

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Originally Posted by jam070406 View Post
And yet you continue to make excuse for those that reject Jesus. Claiming relation to Abraham WILL NOT SAVE THEM. Jesus tells us this in the Gospels to the Jews that try to do that very same thing.
Where in the world did I ever make an excuse for them. I said Muslims have a false doctrine. Where did I say they are excused for not accepting Christ?

All I ever said is the Church teaches us that if we are not taught the truth we cannot be bound to it.

The Quran has a high respectful toward Jesus. They are taught that him and the Blessed Mother of being of exceptional purity. They are not taught he is indeed the true Son of God.

But where did I ever say that there is salvation outside of Jesus Christ? I never said any such thing. And I am not making excuses for anyone. I am just stating the truth.

We believe that it is pretty much inpossible to convert Islams to the truth. They hate Christians so much.

But we have one hope that we never continue to loose. We believe it is the Blessed Mother who is going to be the one to bring them to her Son.

Here is why, There are so many paths of truth they do have about her. They have verses of the Annunciation, the Visitation and angels are pictures as accompanying her saying. Oh Mary God has chosen you and purified you and elected you above all the women of the earth.

The 19 chapter of the Koran has 41 verses on Jesus and Mary.

There is much more to talk about her, and why we believe she will be the one to bring them to Jesus. But we can't get de-railed on that. It would be a great thread to start though.

But again has nothing to do with the Church accepting that they do not pray to a false god. The Church teaches they do indeed have the One true God.
  #206  
Old May 7, '12, 7:08 am
rinnie rinnie is offline
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Default Re: Church teaching on Islam

Quote:
Originally Posted by jam070406 View Post
Because Rinnie, it's flowery language to affirm their belief in monotheism as a preparation to break their bondage to a false religion and bring them to Jesus and true worship which is only found in the sacrifice of the Holy Mass.
Why?
  #207  
Old May 7, '12, 7:09 am
JharekCarnelian JharekCarnelian is offline
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Default Re: Church teaching on Islam

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Originally Posted by jam070406 View Post
Because Rinnie, it's flowery language to affirm their belief in monotheism as a preparation to break their bondage to a false religion and bring them to Jesus and true worship which is only found in the sacrifice of the Holy Mass.
You are surmising that the Church prepares documents with a lack of intellectual integrity? The document plainly lays out where Muslims differ from Christians but there is little to debate as to whether Church teaches that Muslims adore the one true God when the statement from Vatican II consists of:-

Quote:
They worship God who is ONE Living and subsistent merciful and almighty the creator of heaven and earth.
  #208  
Old May 7, '12, 7:18 am
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Vouthon Vouthon is offline
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Default Re: Church teaching on Islam

"...Therefore, come to our aid you who alone are able. For this rivalry [among religions] exists for sake of you, whom alone they revere in everything that all seem to worship. For each one desires in all that he seems to desire only the good which you are; no one is seeking with all his intellectual searching for anything else than the truth which you are. For what does the living seek except to live? What does the existing seek except to exist? Therefore, it is you, the giver of life and being, who is being sought in different religions in various ways, and who are named with different names, because as you are you remain unknown and ineffable to all...Therefore, do not hide Yourself any longer, O Lord. Be propitious, and manifest Your face; and all peoples will be saved, who no longer will be able to desert the Source of life and its sweetness, once having foretasted even a little thereof. For no one departs from You except because He is ignorant of You. If You will graciously grant it, the sword will cease, as will also the malice of hatred and all evils; and all will come to know that there is only one religion in the variety of faiths [rites]..."

- Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa (1401 1464)
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"...Everyone who has joined the ranks of Christ must be a glowing point of light in the world, a nucleus of love, a leaven of the whole mass. He will be so in proportion to his degree of spiritual union with God..."

- Blessed Pope John XXIII, Pacem in Terris (1963)
  #209  
Old May 7, '12, 7:19 am
jam070406 jam070406 is offline
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Default Re: Church teaching on Islam

Quote:
Originally Posted by rinnie View Post
Where in the world did I ever make an excuse for them. I said Muslims have a false doctrine. Where did I say they are excused for not accepting Christ?

All I ever said is the Church teaches us that if we are not taught the truth we cannot be bound to it.

The Quran has a high respectful toward Jesus. They are taught that him and the Blessed Mother of being of exceptional purity. They are not taught he is indeed the true Son of God.

But where did I ever say that there is salvation outside of Jesus Christ? I never said any such thing. And I am not making excuses for anyone. I am just stating the truth.

We believe that it is pretty much inpossible to convert Islams to the truth. They hate Christians so much.

But we have one hope that we never continue to loose. We believe it is the Blessed Mother who is going to be the one to bring them to her Son.

Here is why, There are so many paths of truth they do have about her. They have verses of the Annunciation, the Visitation and angels are pictures as accompanying her saying. Oh Mary God has chosen you and purified you and elected you above all the women of the earth.

The 19 chapter of the Koran has 41 verses on Jesus and Mary.

There is much more to talk about her, and why we believe she will be the one to bring them to Jesus. But we can't get de-railed on that. It would be a great thread to start though.

But again has nothing to do with the Church accepting that they do not pray to a false god. The Church teaches they do indeed have the One true God.
It doesn't matter if they think Jesus is a prophet or nice guy. It's a denial of His divinity. It's blasphemy. It's as the Gospels say, Antichrist.

Of course the Church doesn't explicitly say they worship a false god.
It merely claim that they worship the one true God along with us.
Together but different, seperate. Their false ideas.
Some of which are good, as the Church points out. Some REALLY bad, that the Church did not mention.
So we are over here worshipping the one true God.
They are over there (claiming they are) worshipping the one true God.
Both together but both different. One path true, one path not.
  #210  
Old May 7, '12, 7:20 am
rinnie rinnie is offline
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Default Re: Church teaching on Islam

Check this out.

There was this Moslem chief who had a beautiful daughter, her name was FATIMA. Sound familliar.

Now she fell in love with a CATHOLIC boy, she not only stayed behind when the Moslems left she embraced the faith.

Now her husband loved her so much he changed the name of the town to Fatima.

This is the very place in 1917 where the Blessed Mother appeared and there is a Historical connection to Fatima and the daughter of Muhammad.

Now it gets better. Moslems in Africa and India gave to the pilgrim statue of our lady of Fatima. Moslmes attented church services in honor of our Lady and allowed religious processions and even PRAYERS before THEIR MOSQUES in Mosambique the Moslems who were UN-CONVERTED began to be CHRISTIAN as SOON as the statue of OUR Lady of FATIMA was ERECTED!!

Go figure. Look it up!
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