Are We As Catholics, Obsessed with Mary?

[JharekCarnelian]

Originally Posted by friendlymomma

This is a sensitive subject, huh?

"From my experience, yes, some Catholics can and do take devotion to Mary a little too far.

I have been told, by more than one person, that if I do not have a devotion (which I do not)
to the Blessed Mother, I will not get to Heaven, that I do not love Jesus, and that by not saying the rosary daily, I am disrespecting her and the Church.

I honor Mary, and am grateful that she said that great big "yes" to God, however I do not find Marian devotions to be an effective way for me to pray. "
The above post is from the first page or so of replies.

I am trying to develop a greater appreciation of Mary, but if someone said that to me, that would really discourage me from wanting to do so.

I would think the whole point of saying the rosary is to grow spiritually, some way or another. I try to say the rosary some. I just don't get it. I think I will one day, but for now I say the chaplet of Divine Mercy, and I LOVE how it is helping me to mature in the faith and to focus my thoughts on our Blessed Lord.

I look forward to the day when I can understand how the rosary actually assists us and gives honor to the Blessed Mother and her Son. Honestly, it just doesn't seem helpful to my faith for now. I think it is important for people to realize that not everyone's faith and devotion has to look like theirs. Please, please, stop being so defensive! It is indeed very difficult for Protestants to understand about Mary. I still don't entirely, and I know other Protestants-turned-Catholic who are slow on that as well. It is not because of a hardness of heart, or a desire to disrespect her. I used to think most Catholics worshipped Mary, but now I am learning to venerate her. I, my husband, and thousands and thousands of Protestants have come around, no thanks to the defensive Catholics out there.

Yes, people have to remember there are Christians who are serious about their faith out there who do not quite comprehend how many Catholics see the blessed vrigin. They should remember it is not always out of hostility on the part of these people, but some tiems lack of knowledge. Taking attitudes of cold hostility towards fellow Christians such as these is not going to show them they are mistaken but reinforce walls on either side of the divide.

[ProVobis]

Originally Posted by Brooklyn

This is absolutely true. I was guilty of this myself. As I said, most Protestants don't even consider Catholics to be Christian. They don't understand or accept the concept of original sin and certainly don't understand Mary as the Immaculate Conception or her perpetual virginity. They don't understand Mary as mediator between us and Christ, Heck, a good portion of Catholics don't understand that, as can be seen on this forum.

All of you Catholics who are so concerned about offending Protestants are already behind the 8 ball. You may not like to hear that, but it's the truth.,

I kind of agree with you.

It seems to me the Anglophone Catholic is probably more vulnerable to Protestant attacks because among other things he can't defend the translation to the English "worship". Also no reports of images anywhere. You will no doubt find more Marian devotion amonst the Poles or Hispanics. They have Our Lady of Guadalupe or Our Lady of Czestochowa, for example. But no Our Lady of London or Our Lady of Atlanta yet.

Interestingly enough, though, you won't find a Protestant praying a Hail Mary but some of them really have beautiful singing renditions of the Latin Ave Maria.

[WFS5801]

Originally Posted by Bezant

Nope, that's not my argument.

Did you read and understand my post, or are you reacting to what you think I'm saying?

Alright, I may have misunderstood you, but I have questions. First I'll re-quote what you wrote:

I said, for the sake of drawing non-Catholics to the Church, Catholics need to represent Marian veneration 1) according to Church teaching, clearly distinguishing between veneration and worship and 2) "convey" or "modify" outward devotion in ways non-Catholics may find easier to accept or understand.

Can you give examples of what you mean in point number 2? Specifically how would "modify" outward devotion to Our Lady?

Thanks for the clarification.

[WFS5801]

Originally Posted by Brooklyn

Look, what this all comes down to is Protestants do not accept the role of Mary in the plan of salvation. When Catholics pray to Mary, Protestants see no difference between "veneration" and "worship," Protestants believe that their relationship is between them and God and there is no such thing as an intercessor or mediator. So trying to placate a Protestant by "playing down" devotion to Mary makes no sense whatsoever, and all you end up doing is insulting our Blessed Mother.

Our Blessed Mother is deserving of all devotion and veneration, and she returns it to us with her protection and intercession. This is a beautiful gift given to us by our Lord when he was breathing his last on the cross, and I for one am not about to hide it in any way from people who don't understand it nor do they want to understand it.

My husband is hungry. I gotta go.

Peace

Well put. I'll step out and leave this subject to you. Thanks.

[JharekCarnelian]

Originally Posted by ProVobis

I kind of agree with you.

It seems to me the Anglophone Catholic is probably more vulnerable to Protestant attacks because among other things he can't defend the translation to the English "worship". Also no reports of images anywhere. You will no doubt find more Marian devotion amonst the Poles or Hispanics. They have Our Lady of Guadalupe or Our Lady of Czestochowa, for example. But no Our Lady of London or Our Lady of Atlanta yet.

Interestingly enough, though, you won't find a Protestant praying a Hail Mary but some of them really have beautiful singing renditions of the Latin Ave Maria.

Our fellow Christians the Anglicans who tend to the shrine of our Lady of Walsingham might disagree. There are two shrines in the village there, one tended to by Anglicans and one by Catholics. The Anglican one features this which was carved in 1922:-

[Luvtosew]

Originally Posted by Laudate Dominum

So having devotion to Our Lady is doing the Church harm because Protestants hate her? What would you have us do? Put away our beads and never whisper her name for fear of offending Pastor Bob at the local Baptist hall?

You know I have alot of Protestant friends and even family members and I have never heard anyone speak bad about Mary, because they don't pray the rosary does not me they hate her, they have respect and honor to her. I'm a Rc and I must say some people do go way over into Mary veneration. Personally I don't care what any Saint says about Mary, Jesus Christ is our Lord and Saviour, and yes the BVM is special and favored with the Lord,but the Lord himself said worship God and him alone. There can be a thin line between venerate and worship, and what this has to do with Protestants I have no idea.

[Brooklyn]

Originally Posted by Luvtosew

You know I have alot of Protestant friends and even family members and I have never heard anyone speak bad about Mary, because they don't pray the rosary does not me they hate her, they have respect and honor to her. I'm a Rc and I must say some people do go way over into Mary veneration. Personally I don't care what any Saint says about Mary, Jesus Christ is our Lord and Saviour, and yes the BVM is special and favored with the Lord,but the Lord himself said worship God and him alone. There can be a thin line between venerate and worship, and what this has to do with Protestants I have no idea.

No one is saying that Protestants hate Mary. They certainly accept her as the Mother of Jesus. But Protestants do not see Mary's role in the plan of salvation. They don't see her as specially chosen and prepared through her immaculate conception to be the Mother of God. Protestants most certainly don't believe in Mary's perpetual virginity.

What we have been saying here is that Protestants see Catholics praying to Mary and while we can say that praying to Mary is veneration and not worship that we give to God, they see no difference in it. The same is true in their line of thinking when it comes to praying to the saints or angels. Protestants believe very much in a one-on-one relationship between them and God. They go directly to God with no help from anyone else. We as Catholics pray to those who can intercede for us before the Throne of God, such as saints, angels, and of course, our Blessed Mother. That is a major part of the "community of saints" that is spoken of in the Creed. That is certainly not to say that we cannot go directly to God. You say you don't care what any saints say, but I'll still offer this from St. Louis de Montfort, which puts forth a very Catholic view:

It is more perfect because it supposes greater humility to approach God through a mediator rather than directly by ourselves. Our human nature, as I have just shown, is so spoilt that if we rely on our own work, effort and preparedness to reach God and please him, it is certain that our good works will be tainted and carry little weight with him. They will not induce him to unite himself to us or answer our prayers. God had his reasons for giving us mediators with him. He saw our unworthiness and helplessness and had pity on us. To give us access to his mercies he provided us with powerful advocates, so that to neglect these mediators and to approach his infinite holiness directly and without help from any one of them, is to be lacking in humility and respect towards God who is so great and holy. It would mean that we have less esteem for the King of kings than for an earthly king or ruler, for we would not dare approach an earthly king without a friend to speak for us.

[Jeanne S]

I remember learning a term in the Old Testament (can't remember it ) that referred to the mother of the king ,in the context of the mother being a mediator to the king.This foreshadowed Mary's role as the mediatrix to Our Lord. Also,I believe it was Pope John II that sai:,never be afraid of loving Mary too much.By loving and honoring Mary,we please Our Lord,because He too loved her very much.

[ProVobis]

Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian

Our fellow Christians the Anglicans who tend to the shrine of our Lady of Walsingham might disagree. There are two shrines in the village there, one tended to by Anglicans and one by Catholics. The Anglican one features this which was carved in 1922:-

Haven't heard of them before but thanks. Generally I try to avoid speaking about Mary with the Lutherans or some of the other denominations.

[liturgyluver]

[quote=BenedictFTW;9261993 With Protestant sensibilities about Our Lady, you will be hard pressed to find Our Lady in a Protestant Church - the Protestants would not have such a problem with Christ's Mother if this were not the case. Stands to reason.[/QUOTE]

I can think of many Anglican Churches that have statues of Our Lady which tend to be adorned with flowers and candles and they also sing the Angelus after Mass, and turn to face the statue as they sing it. They also have some beautiful Marian hymns (eg For Mary Mother of Our God, Sing we of the Blessed Mother) Our local Anglican Church even had a Marian procession through the streets this Saturday.

As for Lutherans, I have seen many beautiful paintings of Our Lady but I'd agree that these tend to be presented in a biblical context rather than for veneration. I understand that Sweden though does have some Marian statues, but then it has always been very high Lutheran.

[The Patriarch]

Originally Posted by Brooklyn

Our Blessed Mother is the one through whom our Lord chose to come into the world. It was through her that he received his human nature. So it through her (not from her) that we receive all graces. Our Lord could have chosen another way to come to us, but he chose Mary, the most beautiful and perfect of all his creation. Is it possible to give too much honor and glory to this most magnificient of all God's creation? She is the perfect model for all humanity. As St. Louis de Montfort said, Christ came to us through Mary, and it is through her that we go to Christ. Mary is the most perfect path to Christ, the more sure.

From St. Louis de Montfort:

“We never give more honour to Jesus than when we honour his Mother, and we honour her simply and solely to honour him all the more perfectly. We go to her only as a way leading to the goal we seek – Jesus, her Son.”

“All true children of God have God for their father and Mary for their mother; anyone who does not have Mary for his mother, does not have God for his father. This is why the reprobate, such as heretics and schismatics, who hate, despise or ignore the Blessed Virgin, do not have God for their father though they arrogantly claim they have, because they do not have Mary for their mother. Indeed if they had her for their mother they would love and honour her as good and true children naturally love and honour the mother who gave them life.”

From Saint Bernard of Clairvaux:

“Let us not imagine that we obscure the glory of the Son by the great praise we lavish on the Mother; for the more she is honored, the greater is the glory of her Son. There can be no doubt that whatever we say in praise of the Mother gives equal praise to the Son.”

From Saint Maximilian Kolbe:

“Never be afraid of loving the Blessed Virgin too much. You can never love her more than Jesus did.”

Christ is our mediator with the Father, but Mary is our mediator with Christ. She love us far more than any human is capable of loving us, and all she wants is to bring us to her Son. All honor and glory that we give to Mary goes directly to her Son. She gave of herself completely while on earth. I think of the fact that she gave us her divine Son as a sacrifice for our Sins - beautiful and perfect - and we gave back to her a beaten, bloody pulp, hardly recognizable as a human being, whom she held lovingly in her arms. And despite what our sins did to her Son, she still loves us and still wants to bring us to Him.

You will be hard pressed to find any saint who did not have a deep devotion to Mary. I'm very sorry that devotion to Mary is getting on your "nerve." I most definitely do not feel that way. As I stated in another thread, all those people I know who have remained faithful to the Church their entire lives (and I'm talking about people in their 70's and 80's who never strayed), all of those people have a deep devotion to Mary and the Rosary. That cannot be a coincidence.

Interesting...

[TimothyH]

Originally Posted by Jeanne S

I remember learning a term in the Old Testament (can't remember it ) that referred to the mother of the king ,in the context of the mother being a mediator to the king.This foreshadowed Mary's role as the mediatrix to Our Lord. Also,I believe it was Pope John II that sai:,never be afraid of loving Mary too much.By loving and honoring Mary,we please Our Lord,because He too loved her very much.

It's in 1 Kings, Chapter 2.


-Tim-

[cradlecatholic5]

I think we need to honor her more in fact.

Once you realize that by honoring our Blessed Mother, you are actually honoring God in a more perfect way, you will want to honor her more and more each day.

Chris, couldn't agree w/ you more!!! I will start my Adoration Hour w/ the Rosary tonight.

[cradlecatholic5]

The Trinity LOVES Mary - why wouldn't we??? Unless, of course, we are jealous!!

[Charmlle]

Originally Posted by Brooklyn

No one is saying that Protestants hate Mary. They certainly accept her as the Mother of Jesus. But Protestants do not see Mary's role in the plan of salvation. They don't see her as specially chosen and prepared through her immaculate conception to be the Mother of God. Protestants most certainly don't believe in Mary's perpetual virginity.

What we have been saying here is that Protestants see Catholics praying to Mary and while we can say that praying to Mary is veneration and not worship that we give to God, they see no difference in it. The same is true in their line of thinking when it comes to praying to the saints or angels. Protestants believe very much in a one-on-one relationship between them and God. They go directly to God with no help from anyone else. We as Catholics pray to those who can intercede for us before the Throne of God, such as saints, angels, and of course, our Blessed Mother. That is a major part of the "community of saints" that is spoken of in the Creed. That is certainly not to say that we cannot go directly to God. You say you don't care what any saints say, but I'll still offer this from St. Louis de Montfort, which puts forth a very Catholic view:

It is more perfect because it supposes greater humility to approach God through a mediator rather than directly by ourselves. Our human nature, as I have just shown, is so spoilt that if we rely on our own work, effort and preparedness to reach God and please him, it is certain that our good works will be tainted and carry little weight with him. They will not induce him to unite himself to us or answer our prayers. God had his reasons for giving us mediators with him. He saw our unworthiness and helplessness and had pity on us. To give us access to his mercies he provided us with powerful advocates, so that to neglect these mediators and to approach his infinite holiness directly and without help from any one of them, is to be lacking in humility and respect towards God who is so great and holy. It would mean that we have less esteem for the King of kings than for an earthly king or ruler, for we would not dare approach an earthly king without a friend to speak for us.

Dear Brothers and sisters, you don't have to be afraid of going to God directly through Jesus. God encourages us to and even says we should have confidence in doing so.

Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin. Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need. (Hebrews 4:14-16)

In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence. (Ephesians 3:12)

God will not think you are not humble. No, without faith it is impossible to please God, but if you go to Him with faith, He is well pleased in you. Peace be with you.