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  #211  
Old May 6, '12, 5:12 pm
OldProf OldProf is offline
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Default Re: Assurance of Salvation

Quote:
Originally Posted by fbl9 View Post
Seriously what do i have in this life that if lost means anything, my salvation is in the 'bag'. There is nothing God can do to me that would cause me to fear.Hasten my end? Why that would be grand for i get heaven. Take my family? then God is no longer just, punishing others for some one else.Take my wealth? I have not the attachment to it so it would of no loss for i will still have heaven.

Sure read and quote scripture all you want but if you want to support error then there is no use of scripture.

Yet you haven't quoted Romans 11:22 Why not? Is because you know it clearly defies your postion. Reading your "teachings" one can't help but think this is me theology.
God picked me
I repent beacuse i fear loss for myself in this life
I repent because i loose rewards for myself
fbl9, neither you nor I want to support error. Proper use of Scripture IS imperative. That is why the Jews in Berea were designated as “noble” (Acts 17:11) when they searched the Scriptures daily to confirm Paul’s teaching. The Scriptures are what we are to study to be approved by God (2 Tim 2:15) so Christians will be thoroughly equipped for every good work (2 Tim 3:16-17).

If you have been following my responses, I have provided a context that demonstrates Jesus sheep will never perish (John 9:1 thru John 10:30 – Jesus sheep never perish, John 6:37-40, Jesus will not lose any that the Father gives Him – that is the will of the Father). Scripturally, we know the sheep are the elect of God (see Eph 1:3-14).

Therefore, you seem to think that Romans 11:22 is a challenge to this, such that it shows the sheep can perish. Let’s settle the context of this verse. Paul is writing to the Romans, which has a considerable number of non-Jewish believers. Paul is, of course, the Apostle to the Gentiles (Rom 11:13).

In Romans 9 thru 11, Paul tells about God’s dealings with Israel, past and present, and where the Gentiles fit in (or are grafted in). These verses indicate a corporate view of God’s chosen people, their unbelief, and promises both for Israel and Gentile believers as a corporate whole.

Verses 9:1-5 tell us of Israel’s rejection of Christ (not a good thing!) and Paul’s sorrow and grief over that.

Verses 9:6-13 tell us of Israel’s unbelief and yet it is consistent with God’s purposes (6-13), His mercy and justice (14-24), and His prophetic revelation and prerequisite of faith (25-33).

Verses 10:1-13 tell us of Israel’s need for the gospel and their ignorance of God and ignorance of placing faith in Jesus Christ. Note vv. 3-4 and the real danger of a system of works righteousness – it is faith in Christ, not works. And v. 13, whoever believes (and only the elect will, because only the elect have been given the ability to believe), whether Jew or Gentile, will be saved. Remember, a person who is “dead in sins” (Eph 2:1) is “dead” – thus unable to do anything righteous (Rom 3:10).

Verses 10:14-21 tell us of Israel’s rejection of the Gospel, and how the Gentiles will receive the Gospel and salvation.

Verses 11:1-10 tell us Israel is not totally rejected – the elect remnant remains and understands grace, not works, in accordance with the Old Testament.

Verses 11:11-26 tell us that though Israel has fallen, the promises still apply. The root remains good, but branches are removed (unbelieving Jews) and other branches are grafted in (Gentile believers). Now to the challenge of your verse.

The context of 11:22 is that God has sovereignly decided to put Israel aside for a time and offer salvation through faith to the whole world (Gentiles grafted in!). This was a stern act done in judgment on those Jews who “stumbled over” Jesus Christ (9:32-33). He has been kind to the Gentiles, but Gentile believers must continue in his kindness, which means they must have steadfast perseverance in faith (corporately), this faith in Christ. If Gentile believers do not continue in their perseverance, they too can be cut off just as the natural branches (Jews) were cut off due to their unbelief. The picture is of the Gentiles as a group, like the unbelieving Jews, turning away from God. God’s sternness was demonstrated in that faith was NOT automatic for the chosen people (the Jews were chosen, yet that certainly did not mean salvation for all Jews as Paul makes clear). So the Gentiles, too, with unbelief can be cut off. Again, it is the corporate group, not the individual sheep being spoken of here.

You realize, I hope, that IF you had been right about this verse, it would have provided a contradiction or error in the Scriptures. Jesus sheep NEVER perish – Jesus sheep CAN perish. That won’t happen to God’s Word. God doesn’t lie and he is not the author of confusion (Rom 3:4; 1 Cor 14:33; Heb 6:18). The world wide web is full of web sites that "prove" their points with verses ripped from their context and improperly applied.

Let's avoid that error.

In Christ, OldProf
  #212  
Old May 6, '12, 5:25 pm
OldProf OldProf is offline
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Default Re: Assurance of Salvation

By the way, in my above post I mentioned websites to be aware of - on this subject, the one given on page 1, second entry by Tietjen, is an example of one that seems to be very suspect. And I responded to it on my very first post, #42.

Regards, OldProf
  #213  
Old May 6, '12, 5:57 pm
fbl9 fbl9 is offline
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Default Re: Assurance of Salvation

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldProf View Post
snip..You realize, I hope, that IF you had been right about this verse, it would have provided a contradiction or error in the Scriptures. Jesus sheep NEVER perish – Jesus sheep CAN perish. That won’t happen to God’s Word. God doesn’t lie and he is not the author of confusion (Rom 3:4; 1 Cor 14:33; Heb 6:18).
In Christ, OldProf
Thanks i will address the rest after some thought.
With me being right does not equal error/contradiction in scripture, rather a contradiction of what we each beleive scripture to be saying.
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  #214  
Old May 6, '12, 7:01 pm
OldProf OldProf is offline
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Default Re: Assurance of Salvation

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Originally Posted by fhansen View Post
Possibility of eternal life-that's all any of us have except that it becomes a very high probability as we prove ourselves to be good soil. We can't do it without grace and yet grace can be resisted.
Ouch! This is like you are correcting John in a bunch of places, starting with John 3:15, where Jesus is speaking. And you correct Paul (for example, Romans 6:23).

I could not hold to a theology that does that. I think it is VERY dangerous for you to do that as well.

Regards, OldProf
  #215  
Old May 6, '12, 7:32 pm
fhansen fhansen is offline
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Default Re: Assurance of Salvation

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldProf View Post
Ouch! This is like you are correcting John in a bunch of places, starting with John 3:15, where Jesus is speaking. And you correct Paul (for example, Romans 6:23).

I could not hold to a theology that does that. I think it is VERY dangerous for you to do that as well.

Regards, OldProf
It's just the will of God. He wants us to cooperate but won't violate our wills in forcing us to ccoperate, as per Augustine. If we can't resist grace then the entire drama of this life is a joke-what would be the purpose of casting us into this world-into the pigsty of pain suffering and death-if not for us to learn the value of home-of the Father-like the Prodigal, so we can wise up and come running back to the source of life, if we will? It has to be a choice, born out by how we live. That's scriptural and the continuous, traditional teaching of the only Christian Church.
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  #216  
Old May 7, '12, 10:02 am
OldProf OldProf is offline
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Default Re: Assurance of Salvation

Quote:
Originally Posted by fhansen View Post
It's just the will of God. He wants us to cooperate but won't violate our wills in forcing us to ccoperate, as per Augustine. If we can't resist grace then the entire drama of this life is a joke-what would be the purpose of casting us into this world-into the pigsty of pain suffering and death-if not for us to learn the value of home-of the Father-like the Prodigal, so we can wise up and come running back to the source of life, if we will? It has to be a choice, born out by how we live. That's scriptural and the continuous, traditional teaching of the only Christian Church.
Don't you think it is better to let the Scriptures speak for themselves and believe what they say? Remember Isaiah 55:8-9 ESV

For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

If you think a sinner with freewill is capable of righteous thoughts and acts, then you have a big problem with Paul (Rom 3; Eph 2:1), don't you think?

Sincerely, OldProf
  #217  
Old May 7, '12, 12:14 pm
fhansen fhansen is offline
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Default Re: Assurance of Salvation

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldProf View Post
Don't you think it is better to let the Scriptures speak for themselves and believe what they say? Remember Isaiah 55:8-9 ESV

For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

If you think a sinner with freewill is capable of righteous thoughts and acts, then you have a big problem with Paul (Rom 3; Eph 2:1), don't you think?

Sincerely, OldProf
I could easily turn this around and ask you the same question, based on the many scriptural verses that admonish believers to strive, persevere, etc in order to keep from falling back, with being cut off and the loss of eternal life/the kingdom at stake. Until you finally recognize and admit the inconvenient truth that the meaning of scripture can be argued plausibly from many different perspectives you'll simply remain incapable of determining the will of God with any degree of depth or certainty. So,

"Don't you think it is better to let the Scriptures speak for themselves and believe what they say? Remember Isaiah 55:8-9 ESV

For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts."
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"It is love alone that gives worth to all things." - St. Teresa of Avila
  #218  
Old May 8, '12, 8:50 am
Jerry-Jet Jerry-Jet is offline
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Default Re: Assurance of Salvation

OldProf: do you obey the bible and "WORK out your salvation with FEAR and TREMBLING"?
  #219  
Old May 8, '12, 10:02 am
OldProf OldProf is offline
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Default Re: Assurance of Salvation

Quote:
Originally Posted by fhansen View Post
I could easily turn this around and ask you the same question, based on the many scriptural verses that admonish believers to strive, persevere, etc in order to keep from falling back, with being cut off and the loss of eternal life/the kingdom at stake. Until you finally recognize and admit the inconvenient truth that the meaning of scripture can be argued plausibly from many different perspectives you'll simply remain incapable of determining the will of God with any degree of depth or certainty. So,

"Don't you think it is better to let the Scriptures speak for themselves and believe what they say? Remember Isaiah 55:8-9 ESV

For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts."
I don't think you would try to make this argument if you knew what systematic theology is (I am and have been a serious student of systematic theology since 1993). The REAL inconvenient truth is that people do not carefully study the context of the prooftexts they use which creates unnecessary contradictions between verses. For example, we know the context of the statement by Jesus that His sheep will never perish (well covered in previous posts). We know the context of "eternal life" used over and over again, but never used in the form "the possibility of eternal life". Clearly, that would easily have been written IF that was the meaning the Holy Spirit wanted to convey.

So, yes, I let the Scriptures speak for themselves in the context of the statements given. Jesus sheep never perish. The sheep have eternal life. This has been covered in context.

But you didn't answer my question. So here it is again, but to be clear, the sinner is the "natural man" who does not seek after God and is not righteous as Paul describes with emphasis in Romans 3, and in fact he is "dead in trespasses and sin" from Eph 2:1 (not crippled with some abilities - dead). The question is about the "ability" of this "dead" sinner.

"If you think a sinner with freewill is capable of righteous thoughts and acts, then you have a big problem with Paul (Rom 3; Eph 2:1), don't you think?"

Sincerely, OldProf
  #220  
Old May 8, '12, 10:28 am
fhansen fhansen is offline
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Default Re: Assurance of Salvation

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldProf View Post
I don't think you would try to make this argument if you knew what systematic theology is (I am and have been a serious student of systematic theology since 1993). The REAL inconvenient truth is that people do not carefully study the context of the prooftexts they use which creates unnecessary contradictions between verses. For example, we know the context of the statement by Jesus that His sheep will never perish (well covered in previous posts). We know the context of "eternal life" used over and over again, but never used in the form "the possibility of eternal life". Clearly, that would easily have been written IF that was the meaning the Holy Spirit wanted to convey.

So, yes, I let the Scriptures speak for themselves in the context of the statements given. Jesus sheep never perish. The sheep have eternal life. This has been covered in context.

But you didn't answer my question. So here it is again, but to be clear, the sinner is the "natural man" who does not seek after God and is not righteous as Paul describes with emphasis in Romans 3, and in fact he is "dead in trespasses and sin" from Eph 2:1 (not crippled with some abilities - dead). The question is about the "ability" of this "dead" sinner.

"If you think a sinner with freewill is capable of righteous thoughts and acts, then you have a big problem with Paul (Rom 3; Eph 2:1), don't you think?"

Sincerely, OldProf
No, you still don't understand. No amount of understanding of systematic theology or any system of exegesis will suffice-and Catholic theologians aren't just fresh off the boat in those areas, either, BTW- because those fields are nonetheless far from definitive in their ability to prove or disprove any given point of theology. And this is why my grandmother from the Italian Alps, one step above peasantry, had a better grasp of the faith and the will of God in general than yourself-because she was taught by the one church that was established for the purpose of receiving, preserving, and conveying the faith. Like I said before, your understanding/interpretations are plausible, just wrong in certain areas.
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  #221  
Old May 8, '12, 3:23 pm
fbl9 fbl9 is offline
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Default Re: Assurance of Salvation

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldProf View Post
Therefore, you seem to think that Romans 11:22 is a challenge to this, such that it shows the sheep can perish. Let’s settle the context of this verse. Paul is writing to the Romans, which has a considerable number of non-Jewish believers. Paul is, of course, the Apostle to the Gentiles (Rom 11:13).

In Romans 9 thru 11, Paul tells about God’s dealings with Israel, past and present, and where the Gentiles fit in (or are grafted in). These verses indicate a corporate view of God’s chosen people, their unbelief, and promises both for Israel and Gentile believers as a corporate whole.

Verses 9:1-5 tell us of Israel’s rejection of Christ (not a good thing!) and Paul’s sorrow and grief over that.

Verses 9:6-13 tell us of Israel’s unbelief and yet it is consistent with God’s purposes (6-13), His mercy and justice (14-24), and His prophetic revelation and prerequisite of faith (25-33).

Verses 10:1-13 tell us of Israel’s need for the gospel and their ignorance of God and ignorance of placing faith in Jesus Christ. Note vv. 3-4 and the real danger of a system of works righteousness – it is faith in Christ, not works. And v. 13, whoever believes (and only the elect will, because only the elect have been given the ability to believe), whether Jew or Gentile, will be saved. Remember, a person who is “dead in sins” (Eph 2:1) is “dead” – thus unable to do anything righteous (Rom 3:10).

Verses 10:14-21 tell us of Israel’s rejection of the Gospel, and how the Gentiles will receive the Gospel and salvation.

Verses 11:1-10 tell us Israel is not totally rejected – the elect remnant remains and understands grace, not works, in accordance with the Old Testament.

Verses 11:11-26 tell us that though Israel has fallen, the promises still apply. The root remains good, but branches are removed (unbelieving Jews) and other branches are grafted in (Gentile believers). Now to the challenge of your verse.

The context of 11:22 is that God has sovereignly decided to put Israel aside for a time and offer salvation through faith to the whole world (Gentiles grafted in!). This was a stern act done in judgment on those Jews who “stumbled over” Jesus Christ (9:32-33). He has been kind to the Gentiles, but Gentile believers must continue in his kindness, which means they must have steadfast perseverance in faith (corporately), this faith in Christ. If Gentile believers do not continue in their perseverance, they too can be cut off just as the natural branches (Jews) were cut off due to their unbelief. The picture is of the Gentiles as a group, like the unbelieving Jews, turning away from God. God’s sternness was demonstrated in that faith was NOT automatic for the chosen people (the Jews were chosen, yet that certainly did not mean salvation for all Jews as Paul makes clear). So the Gentiles, too, with unbelief can be cut off. Again, it is the corporate group, not the individual sheep being spoken of here.

You realize, I hope, that IF you had been right about this verse, it would have provided a contradiction or error in the Scriptures. Jesus sheep NEVER perish – Jesus sheep CAN perish. That won’t happen to God’s Word. God doesn’t lie and he is not the author of confusion (Rom 3:4; 1 Cor 14:33; Heb 6:18). The world wide web is full of web sites that "prove" their points with verses ripped from their context and improperly applied.

Let's avoid that error.

In Christ, OldProf
You might have something here but St.Paul was a Jew, as were approx 3000 and what 140 or so in the upper room. And the many more than came into the church everyday.As a whole Isreal did not reject God. He would cut those that did not beleive. Not the whole as you try to imply.
Now us as a whole, no. As you can plainly see it was individuals cut off. And it will be individual gentiles cut off with unbeleif. So guard your faith lest you become an unbeleiver and be cut off.
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  #222  
Old May 8, '12, 9:02 pm
OldProf OldProf is offline
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Default Re: Assurance of Salvation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry-Jet View Post
OldProf: do you obey the bible and "WORK out your salvation with FEAR and TREMBLING"?
Yes, in proper context. This was explained to you. See post #141 where I provided the context and why believers want to avoid the chastisement of God. It does NOT say the result will be that the sheep will lose their salvation. The sheep have eternal life which is meaningless if a sheep can die and go to hell. Eternal life actually MEANS eternal life.

And I obey the Bible when St John tells me, "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life." 1 John 5:13 ESV (see biblegateway for ESV).

The Bible is a great gift from God. It has been said: (Anonymous)

“This book contains: the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers. Its doctrine is holy, its precepts are binding, its histories are true, and its decisions are immutable. Read it to be wise, believe it to be saved, and practice it to be holy. It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you. It is the traveler’s map, the pilgrim’s staff, the pilot’s compass, the soldier’s sword, and the Christian’s charter. Here heaven is open, and the gates of hell are disclosed. Christ is the grand subject, our good its design, and the glory of God its end. It should fill the memory, rule the heart, and guide the feet. Read it slowly, frequently, and prayerfully. It is a mine of wealth, health to the soul, and a river of pleasure. It is given to you here in this life, will be opened at the judgment, and is established forever. It involves the highest responsibility, will reward the greatest labor, and condemn all who trifle with its contents.”

"For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe." The Apostle Paul, 1 Thessalonians 2:13

Sincerely, OldProf
  #223  
Old May 9, '12, 9:10 am
Jerry-Jet Jerry-Jet is offline
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Default Re: Assurance of Salvation

Jesus didn't die on the cross so that people in one instant of faith could be branded.

Jesus died on the cross so that people could CONTINUALLY be transformed by Him and made righteous.

Mortal sin is a fact.

Mortal sin breaks the continual transformation.

Die in that state and yes--a person will go to Hell!

Satan wants people to believe in once saved always saved so he can get them to mortally sin and take them to Hell!

Satan can not SNATCH them out of Jesus' hands--but Jesus will let them leave Him--just ask Judas!

I never have been able to understand the Protestant mind that is so small that it cannot comprehend CONTINUANCE.

God said He was "I AM".

We have to become like Him.

Being truely saved does not mean that NECESSARILY a saved person will always continue to be in that transforming state until death.

Why would anyone believe that that is always NECESSARILY the case?

Do you think the devil believes that?!

He laughs at people that are dumb enough to believe that!

He laughs at people that are dumb enough to believe that Christ's Catholic Church led by the Holy Spirit would teach error for 1500 years!

It really gets down to who do you want to bet your soul on--Protestants with no authority for the last 500 years or the Catholic Church given authority by Christ for 2000 years.

If you don't believe in once saved always saved and do not die in a state of mortal sin you will not go to Hell.

If you do believe in once saved always saved and die in a state of mortal sin--are you willing to bet your eternal soul on not going to Hell?

Who would make such a dumb bet?

Satan wants people to make that bet.

Satan has always been Protestant.

He protests against Christ's Catholic church.

Why join him?
  #224  
Old May 9, '12, 10:47 am
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Anna Scott Anna Scott is offline
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Default Re: Assurance of Salvation

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldProf View Post
Yes, in proper context. This was explained to you. See post #141 where I provided the context and why believers want to avoid the chastisement of God. It does NOT say the result will be that the sheep will lose their salvation. . . .
OldProf,
I posted on this thread closer to its beginning. So, I'm not completely up to speed on all the recent posts.

However, one of the most humbling things for me, in considering salvation, is that Jesus, when he prepared His Apostles for the trials they would face, did not give them assurance of salvation. He said, " the one who endures to the end will be saved." There are many elements of the salvation journey, perseverance is one of them.

Matthew 10:
16 “Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves. 17 Beware of men, for they will deliver you over to courts and flog you in their synagogues, 18 and you will be dragged before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them and the Gentiles. 19 When they deliver you over, do not be anxious how you are to speak or what you are to say, for what you are to say will be given to you in that hour. 20 For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you. 21 Brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death, 22 and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.


Salvation is not a moment in time, it is a life long journey with the Holy Trinity.

We live in the hope of the resurrection, at every moment calling upon the Holy Spirit to search us out, convict us of sins and call us to confession, repentance, and reconciliation. The Sacraments play a role in our salvation, being a means, chosen by God, to impart His Grace.

Salvation is often over-simplified in Protestant proclamations of the Gospel, which leads many into a false sense of security, a false sense of salvation, and places their very salvation at risk.

One does not have to be a "serious student of systematic theology, since 1993" (as you claim to be) to understand salvation. Holy Scripture is actually very clear.

Peace,
Anna
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Last edited by Anna Scott; May 9, '12 at 11:07 am.
  #225  
Old May 9, '12, 10:10 pm
fbl9 fbl9 is offline
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Default Re: Assurance of Salvation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry-Jet View Post
Jesus didn't die on the cross so that people in one instant of faith could be branded.

Jesus died on the cross so that people could CONTINUALLY be transformed by Him and made righteous.

Mortal sin is a fact.

Mortal sin breaks the continual transformation.

Die in that state and yes--a person will go to Hell!

Satan wants people to believe in once saved always saved so he can get them to mortally sin and take them to Hell!

Satan can not SNATCH them out of Jesus' hands--but Jesus will let them leave Him--just ask Judas!

I never have been able to understand the Protestant mind that seems it cannot comprehend CONTINUANCE.

God said He was "I AM".

We have to become like Him.

Being truely saved does not mean that NECESSARILY a saved person will always continue to be in that transforming state until death.

Why would anyone believe that that is always NECESSARILY the case?

Do you think the devil believes that?!

He smiles when people believe that!

Satan smiles when people beleive that Christ's Catholic Church led by the Holy Spirit would teach error for 1500 years!

It really gets down to who do you want to bet your soul on--Protestants with no authority for the last 500 years or the Catholic Church given authority by Christ for 2000 years.

If you don't believe in once saved always saved and do not die in a state of mortal sin you will not go to Hell.

If you do believe in once saved always saved and die in a state of mortal sin--are you willing to bet your eternal soul on not going to Hell?



Satan wants people to make that bet.

Satan has always been Protestant.

He protests against Christ's Catholic church.

Why tempt him?
Now i can agree fully with your post. after tweaking it a bit.
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