Gallup: Catholic vote a tossup, 46/46

[gcharles]

If you consider Progressive Catholics actual Catholics that is true.

[Ridgerunner]

Originally Posted by estesbob

An earth that has shown no warming since 1998. per the AGW alarmists models we should have a much high temperature now.

If we underwent another "Little Ice Age" like the one in the 18th and 19th Centuries, (and we sure could) we would be on our knees praying for MMGW.

[Rich Olszewski]

Originally Posted by gcharles

If you consider Progressive Catholics actual Catholics that is true.

Whether posters here consider them actual Catholics is wholly immaterial. The Catholic Church says that they are, regardless what right-wing Catholics say.

[Ridgerunner]

Originally Posted by Rich Olszewski

Whether posters here consider them actual Catholics is wholly immaterial. The Catholic Church says that they are, regardless what right-wing Catholics say.

Oddly, I find myself largely agreeing with Rich again on this point, at least in part. (We rarely agree otherwise, but sometimes we do.) I would dispute his assertion that anyone who questions one's Catholicity is necessarily a "right wing Catholic". Politics has nothing to do with whether one thinks baptized Catholic dissidents are still Catholics according to Catholic doctrine.

It is an interesting thing to think about, though. After all, Martin Luther and Henry VIII were Catholics until the day they died. So were (and are) all "former" Catholics who become protestant, formally or informally. Yet, we do not hesitate to call them protestants notwithstanding that they were also Catholic.

"Protestant" simply means "one who protests", or is dissident from the true teachings of the Church.

So, it would seem that a dissident Catholic can be both Catholic and "Protestant" at the same time, just like Martin Luther.

[romara22]

Originally Posted by qui est ce

Clearly shows a need for better catechizing.

How can you call yourself Catholic if you don't adhere to her Teachings?

This is the million dollar question.

My thought is that in todays world, we have everything: shelter, vehicles, computers, cable, phones, access to any and all information in the universe - why do we need a God? Or, to put it another way: Why do we need to follow the "rules" of a Church when everything around is seems to be working out fine WITHOUT following the rules of the Church?

Our society has become a selfish one. We no longer think about our family, our community, our country; we think only of ourselves.

This is more true for abortion than anything else. So many people vote for politicians because they "work for them". They vote for politicians because he/she will lower their taxes, give them things (free contraception anybody?), support them on an individual basis. Those same politicians may believe that babies can be brutally murdeded with scissors or suction or (worse yet) left to die after being born alive...but nobody cares, because they're getting what they want from the government and the lives of others does not affect them.

I realize this sidetracked a bit, but the Church has her teachings for a reason: for mankind to prosper in love. How sad of a condition this world is in, all because people want to have it their way and not God's way...

[Rich Olszewski]

Originally Posted by Ridgerunner

Oddly, I find myself largely agreeing with Rich again on this point, at least in part. (We rarely agree otherwise, but sometimes we do.) I would dispute his assertion that anyone who questions one's Catholicity is necessarily a "right wing Catholic". Politics has nothing to do with whether one thinks baptized Catholic dissidents are still Catholics according to Catholic doctrine.

It is an interesting thing to think about, though. After all, Martin Luther and Henry VIII were Catholics until the day they died. So were (and are) all "former" Catholics who become protestant, formally or informally. Yet, we do not hesitate to call them protestants notwithstanding that they were also Catholic.

"Protestant" simply means "one who protests", or is dissident from the true teachings of the Church.

So, it would seem that a dissident Catholic can be both Catholic and "Protestant" at the same time, just like Martin Luther.

Your argument is flawless, but popularly, I think that few people would term dissident Catholics as Protestants. Even those theologians who have earned disfavor with the Vatican for their dissidence aren't referred to by the Vatican as "Protestants."

[lynnvinc]

Originally Posted by Ridgerunner

If we underwent another "Little Ice Age" like the one in the 18th and 19th Centuries, (and we sure could) we would be on our knees praying for MMGW.

They're even saying that the slowing/halting of the thermohaline/ocean conveyor would not have an extreme effect in the N. Atlantic (Eastern U.S. & Europe), as portrayed in Day After Tomorrow, due to the countervailing impact of the warming. So it could get a lot colder in certain areas (while getting a lot hotter in others), but is won't be as bad as earlier ideas about it.

Even if there were to be such a terrible regional "cold snap" bordering on an ice age, the ultimate warming due to long-lived CO2 in the atmosphere would put the system back on track of warming for a very long time, ultimately cause much more harm than a mini-ice age.

However, it would be good to leave a good portion of fossil fuels in the ground -- both to help future generations cope with possible cold snaps, and also to stave off AGW.

When I think about the earlier environmentalists -- the preservationists and conservationists, like Teddy Roosevelt -- they thought about us and future generations and did the right things. Why can't we think about the children and our descendents, if not have a heart for all people, even those to come after us.

Really the upcoming election is very tough -- the choice is between killing children or killing children. We all have to make our choice based on what we know and understand, and the pro-life principles superseding other principles. Whatever side one votes for, they should be feeling very bad that it was a terrible dilemma, and both sides spelled death (and life), but in different ways.

I don't know whether to appreciate those who are willing to sacrifice (even kill) their own progeny (by environmental harms) for the sake of other women not having abortions, or feel very sad about it. Either way, it is very very sad.

[Ridgerunner]

Originally Posted by Rich Olszewski

Your argument is flawless, but popularly, I think that few people would term dissident Catholics as Protestants. Even those theologians who have earned disfavor with the Vatican for their dissidence aren't referred to by the Vatican as "Protestants."

That's why I put "protestants" in quotation marks. It's not formally so until one declares it so, but de facto, a fair number of Catholics are, indeed "protestants" also.

[Sailor Kenshin]

Originally Posted by 1voice

The Catholic vote is split. Even after all that Obama has
done to denigrate the Catholic Church.

What are they thinking?


http://www.gallup.com/poll/154430/Ca...ligiosity.aspx

That's partly why I have one foot and seven toes out the door. For shame!

[JustinPW]

Originally Posted by Rich Olszewski

Where has he denigrated - spoken ill - of the Church?

Where hasn't he?!! I've seen speeches where he has mocked the Bible and Christians.

"It's not surprising, then, they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations." --explaining his troubles winning over some working-class voters

"Which passages of the scripture should guide our public policy? Shall we go with Leviticus, which suggests slavery is OK? Or we could go with Deuteronomy which suggests that stoning your child if he strays from the faith? Or should we just stick the sermon on the mount? A passage that is so radical that it is doubtful that our own defence department would survive its application! Folks haven't been readin' their Bible!"

"If we were ever, we are no longer a Christian Nation..."

Obama has gone against so many anchors of Catholic/Christian beliefs in his presidency. He has openly mocked and ridiculed the Bible and the books of Leviticus, Deuteronomy (which by the way contains the 10 Commandments), and what many people believe to be the most spiritually inspiring words ever spoken by Jesus Christ.

When Obama spoke at Notre Dame, the school was instructed to cover all symbols of Christianity to be covered at the lecture hall.

It isn't his words that speak so loudly, it's his actions. Anyone who truly follows the Catholic faith should recognize that much of what this president is doing and wants to do is directly the opposite of Catholic/Christian teaching (which is the truth).

[ishii]

Originally Posted by Rich Olszewski

Where has he denigrated - spoken ill - of the Church?

Obama's actions louldy proclaim his denigration of the Catholic church. You should open your eyes and look at his actions more closely.

Ishii

[Rich Olszewski]

Originally Posted by JustinPW

Where hasn't he?!! I've seen speeches where he has mocked the Bible and Christians.

"It's not surprising, then, they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations." --explaining his troubles winning over some working-class voters

How does that mock the Bible? How does that mock Christians?

"Which passages of the scripture should guide our public policy? Shall we go with Leviticus, which suggests slavery is OK? Or we could go with Deuteronomy which suggests that stoning your child if he strays from the faith? Or should we just stick the sermon on the mount? A passage that is so radical that it is doubtful that our own defence department would survive its application! Folks haven't been readin' their Bible!"

Where's the mockery?

"If we were ever, we are no longer a Christian Nation..."

I'm foursquare with the President on this one. America never was and is not a Christian nation.

Obama has gone against so many anchors of Catholic/Christian beliefs in his presidency. He has openly mocked and ridiculed the Bible and the books of Leviticus, Deuteronomy (which by the way contains the 10 Commandments), and what many people believe to be the most spiritually inspiring words ever spoken by Jesus Christ.

Where is the mockery?

I fear that there's not a thing that the President cold say or do that would satisfy people who share your attitude.

Oh, yes. If you dislike him so, the solution is simple. Vote against him to get him out of office.

[lynnvinc]

Originally Posted by JustinPW

Where hasn't he?!! I've seen speeches where he has mocked the Bible and Christians.

"It's not surprising, then, they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations." --explaining his troubles winning over some working-class voters
....

"If we were ever, we are no longer a Christian Nation..."

Those statement resonate with me. Since I was a kid in the 50s I've known American is NOT a Christian nation, and now 6 decades later that is even more the case. I have grave misgivings about the religious rights version of Christianity, and the left have basically given up the pretense to being religious (which is at least honest).

At first when I was a kid, I just thought nearly everyone was a hypocrite, then it finally came to me that people were not hypocrites, they were following their religions well. Just that is was not Christianity (even tho they may go to a Christian church on Sundays), it was Americanism, which tells us to gobble up everything for ourselves and don't care about others, that rights are much more important than duties (we lack adequate cognizance of others and their rights and needs), etc.

I also read that people were not as religious in the earlier decades and centuries of our nation than since the mid 1900s.

I think Americans have for the most part perverted Christianity into something terrible, like a monster they use to justify evil. Our master ideology is not Christianity (as Jesus taught it), but "Me-ism." The rugged individualist, not the rugged cross.

American Catholics in general are only a tad better than most of the other Christians; we don't have Roman Catholicism here, but at least there is a vestige of Christianity as Jesus taught it in our "American Catholicism." A few listen to the Holy Father and Church teachings, and are not cafeteria Catholics.

Basically Obama is correct in those quote above, even tho very wrong on the abortion issue, etc.

[estesbob]

Originally Posted by lynnvinc

Basically Obama is correct in those quote above, even tho very wrong on the abortion issue, etc.

"Other than that how was the play, Mrs Lincoln?'

[Sailor Kenshin]

Originally Posted by lynnvinc

Those statement resonate with me. Since I was a kid in the 50s I've known American is NOT a Christian nation, and now 6 decades later that is even more the case. I have grave misgivings about the religious rights version of Christianity, and the left have basically given up the pretense to being religious (which is at least honest).

At first when I was a kid, I just thought nearly everyone was a hypocrite, then it finally came to me that people were not hypocrites, they were following their religions well. Just that is was not Christianity (even tho they may go to a Christian church on Sundays), it was Americanism, which tells us to gobble up everything for ourselves and don't care about others, that rights are much more important than duties (we lack adequate cognizance of others and their rights and needs), etc.

I also read that people were not as religious in the earlier decades and centuries of our nation than since the mid 1900s.

I think Americans have for the most part perverted Christianity into something terrible, like a monster they use to justify evil. Our master ideology is not Christianity (as Jesus taught it), but "Me-ism." The rugged individualist, not the rugged cross.

American Catholics in general are only a tad better than most of the other Christians; we don't have Roman Catholicism here, but at least there is a vestige of Christianity as Jesus taught it in our "American Catholicism." A few listen to the Holy Father and Church teachings, and are not cafeteria Catholics.

Basically Obama is correct in those quote above, even tho very wrong on the abortion issue, etc.

Please explain how Catholics are 'better,' when they voted for an avowed abortion-rights candidate, and continue to support the socialist policies that are against the teachings of the CCC.

'At least they are being honest' won't cut it as a response.