Holding Hands during the Our Father

[EcceAgnusDei]

Originally Posted by thewanderer

This is correct. The Mass and the LOTH are the public prayers of the Church. In other words, no matter how few people attend it is always the offering of the whole Church to God.

Now, maybe more people could start praying the Divine Office... imagine the graces that the whole Church could receive from that

+ PAX

[adrift]

Originally Posted by thewanderer

I am not saying that it is not often an abuse. I guess I am confused because I thought we had determined earlier in this thread that people holding hands at the Our Father is not necessarily an abuse. You talked about the difference between it being done privately, or by the assembly. If it is thought to be required then it is an abuse, if the priest encourages it, that is an abuse, etc. So, yes, it is often an abuse, but I though we had determined that it is not always an abuse. Which is why I think there is confusion on this thread, some are referring only to the abuse, and others are referring to the private practice.

Grabbing your spouses hand or children's hand is not an abuse. An abuse only comes into play when it becomes and action of the congregation. I do not believe this came about because a parent or spouse held hands spontaneously. It came about because people were told to do it. They believe that it is part of Mass.

I believe that it can rightly be called an abuse but not a deliberate one. I don't like it but as long as my not holding hands is respected it is no big deal. I also don't like it when people wave to others at the sign of peace but of course that is another thread.

[TempleServant]

Originally Posted by TimothyH

It doesn't matter who is there.

The Eucharistic prayers which the priest say while Jesus is on the altar speak clearly about the Church as a family, one body of christ throughout the whole world, the community of believers, etc.

It doesn't matter if Blessed Pope John Paul II is saying Mass for a million people in Poland or a priest in the middle of nowhere says Mass by himself.

The way it seems to anyone has nothing to do with it. The words of the Mass itself speak of community.


-Tim-

That doesn't address my point. The community is mentioned in the mass. It is not the focus of the mass.

[Orogeny]

Originally Posted by TimothyH

It offers no direction on the subject. It is silent.

Some believe that anything done which is not specified in the rubrics is an abuse. Others believe that they are free to do it becaue the rubrics don't specify not to do it. Many take a middle ground, seeing this particular behaivior more as a cultural issue than anything else, and suggest prudence and reasonableness.

Well, if it is an abuse if we do something that isn't directed in the GIRM and there isn't a direction as to what to do with our hands during the Lord's Prayer in the GIRM, doesn't that mean that whatever we do with our hands is an abuse?

Nice name.


-Tim-

What's even better, my last name starts with an H. Good thing I chose the name I did or you might not have been able to use your name!

Peace

Tim

[thewanderer]

Originally Posted by EcceAgnusDei

Now, maybe more people could start praying the Divine Office... imagine the graces that the whole Church could receive from that

+ PAX

I agree!!

[thewanderer]

Originally Posted by adrift

Grabbing your spouses hand or children's hand is not an abuse. An abuse only comes into play when it becomes and action of the congregation. I do not believe this came about because a parent or spouse held hands spontaneously. It came about because people were told to do it. They believe that it is part of Mass.

I believe that it can rightly be called an abuse but not a deliberate one. I don't like it but as long as my not holding hands is respected it is no big deal. I also don't like it when people wave to others at the sign of peace but of course that is another thread.

And my point is exactly that, that because holding hands during Mass is not always an abuse that some people are objecting to refering to it as always an abuse without making this distinction. In other words, I'm pretty sure a lot of the disagreement on this thread is simply about what people mean by the words they use, not necessaarily in the reality they are using those words to refer to.

[thewanderer]

Originally Posted by TempleServant

That doesn't address my point. The community is mentioned in the mass. It is not the focus of the mass.

Having a sign of unity in the Mass does not necessitate a change of the enitre focus of the Mass. If it did it would be wrong to have any sign of unity with others. In otherwords, holding your child/sibling/spouses hand etc would be wrong and unfitting for Mass. This argument simply does not hold true.

[Diana Catherine]

Originally Posted by adrift

Grabbing your spouses hand or children's hand is not an abuse. An abuse only comes into play when it becomes and action of the congregation. I do not believe this came about because a parent or spouse held hands spontaneously. It came about because people were told to do it. They believe that it is part of Mass. .

Lack of teaching, I guess, but it seems to me that many of the people doing this are not young people and know it is a relatively knew thing and has not always been part of the mass.

Originally Posted by adrift

I believe that it can rightly be called an abuse but not a deliberate one. I don't like it but as long as my not holding hands is respected it is no big deal..

I agree.

Originally Posted by adrift

I also don't like it when people wave to others at the sign of peace but of course that is another thread.

Not to derail the thread but I agree and the peace sign (bunny ears) I don't like either but kind of gives me a chuckle.

[ProVobis]

Originally Posted by thewanderer

Having a sign of unity in the Mass does not necessitate a change of the enitre focus of the Mass. If it did it would be wrong to have any sign of unity with others. In otherwords, holding your child/sibling/spouses hand etc would be wrong and unfitting for Mass. This argument simply does not hold true.

But who decided to place this sign of unity at that particular moment of the Mass? FWIW, I heard they are considering moving the option of the sign of peace to the offertory or somewhere around there.

[thewanderer]

Originally Posted by ProVobis

But who decided to place this sign of unity at that particular moment of the Mass? FWIW, I heard they are considering moving the option of the sign of peace to the offertory or somewhere around there.

Does it really matter who first thought up the idea? If, for some people, this is simply a sign of unity among friends or family, and not viewed as the position of the assembly, is that really to be considered an abuse? In that instance it is only a few doing it, and Ty do not view it as the action of the assembly. My point is simply that, while admittedly it currently is almost always an abuse in the states it is not always and it is not necessarily an abuse in and of itself.

[ProVobis]

Originally Posted by thewanderer

Does it really matter who first thought up the idea?

I think it does matter. People don't dictate the rubrics of the Mass. They went to a lot of trouble to place what and where in the Mass and the sequence is significant to the meaning of the Mass. There is the sign of peace already. Do you think that was brought about by the people?

Is holding hands intrinsically wrong? Of course not. Can it be done elsewhere in the Mass? Of course. Who decides if and where? The Church.

Or do the people know better than the Church?

I hold my hands to myself, either holding my missal or my glasses. And that's all I'm going to say on this thread.

[thewanderer]

Originally Posted by ProVobis

I think it does matter. People don't dictate the rubrics of the Mass. They went to a lot of trouble to place what and where in the Mass and the sequence is significant to the meaning of the Mass. There is the sign of peace already. Do you think that was brought about by the people?

Is holding hands intrinsically wrong? Of course not. Can it be done elsewhere in the Mass? Of course. Who decides if and where? The Church.

Or do the people know better than the Church?

I hold my hands to myself, either holding my missal or my glasses. And that's all I'm going to say on this thread.

So it would be wrong for me to hold my sisters hand during mass?

I'm not talking about dictating rubrics! I'm trying to point out that it is not always a matter of people dictating rubrics

[Moore11]

Originally Posted by thewanderer

So it would be wrong for me to hold my sisters hand during mass?

I'm not talking about dictating rubrics! I'm trying to point out that it is not always a matter of people dictating rubrics

Of course not. I dont know why this is so difficult for all of us to show. There is a certain point every Mass where the people outside of the instruction of the Church do the SAME Gesture every single Mass at the exact same spot. It isn't a personal devotion, it isn't something you do with someone you care about and are at Mass with like your sister, it is something that is expected and done at the same point every Mass. To sell it as ok, or not forbidden by name, or spontaneous is not understanding what is going on. The church dictates the Mass to the people, not the other way around. You of course can hold your sisters hand but if you and every single person in Mass give a giant thumbs up at the consecration EVERY MASS, because you want to show joy and everyone in the parish is doing it ! That would be outside of the bounds. Same here.
If say on 9-12 2001 you were saying the our father at Mass and everyone was weeping then yes go ahead! Hold a hand, but every Mass every day of every week!? That is inserting something into the Mass that doesn't belong.

Football teams like to show unity and community by slapping each other on the backside. Do you think this would be appropriate at the Our Father for Masses involving these team members? nope.

[Diana Catherine]

Originally Posted by ProVobis

I think it does matter. People don't dictate the rubrics of the Mass. They went to a lot of trouble to place what and where in the Mass and the sequence is significant to the meaning of the Mass. There is the sign of peace already. Do you think that was brought about by the people?

Is holding hands intrinsically wrong? Of course not. Can it be done elsewhere in the Mass? Of course. Who decides if and where? The Church.

Or do the people know better than the Church?.

Very true.

[Singapore Nick]

we've stopped holding hands during this part of the mass since the outbreak of SARS several years ago.