Mantilla/Chapel Veil

[Lamafacaja]

Originally Posted by Crafty Catholic

I favorited you and you are in my circle of mantilla-making friends .

Thanks!

[Lamafacaja]

Originally Posted by Hmgbrd

Yes I too completely agree. I have started veiling myself at TLM masses. I don't have a "chapel veil" but use a sheer silk scarf that works quite well. I also veil at vigil mass on Saturdays. It just feels right for me.

Silk is a very elegant material; it sounds great for Mass.

[Joannm]

I think if the church starts mandating head coverings again you are going to see a lot of women wearing the fanciest of hats. Picture what the two princesses wore at the royal wedding last year. I don't think most women will wear veils. Most, as when I was a child, will wear hats. and I know it was almost a contest to see who had the prettiest hat. It will become a temptation toward vanity rather than a expression of faith. That's just how I see it based on personal experience of how it was.

[FatherOfTwelve]

Originally Posted by TCostello

Well, the Church has changed the canon law from requiring all women to cover when in church to being an optional practice and it is no longer a sin for women to enter church with a bare head; however, in my opinion, yes it means that you are less obedient to not cover. The Church no longer wants to force women to cover strictly for obedience, but more so to choose to cover based on loving and honoring Jesus and His Mother. My opinion should be of no consequence to you or any other woman, that is for you and others to discern your own choices and actions. I do not judge anyone else based on their decision to cover or not, simply to encourage those that do. Also, I do not mean you or anyone else any lack of charity, simply to clarify myself based upon your question. God bless and keep you.

Here is what 1Cor 11:2-6 (Douay-Reims Version) states:
2 Now I praise you, brethren, that in all things you are mindful of me: and keep my ordinances as I have delivered them to you.
3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
4 Every man praying or prophesying with his head covered, disgraceth his head.
5 But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered, disgraceth her head: for it is all one as if she were shaven.
6 For if a woman be not covered, let her be shorn. But if it be a shame to a woman to be shorn or made bald, let her cover her head.

Now, keep in mind, the epistle was of Saint Paul. He is the representation of Christ on earth as the Pope. So, I suppose to answer you question, that's where Christ says women should cover their heads. If you continue to read verse 13, it says, "You yourselves judge: doth it become a woman, to pray unto God uncovered?"

... but more so to choose to cover based on loving and honoring Jesus and His Mother.

honoring her husband.
5 But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered, disgraceth her head: for it is all one as if she were shaven.

The husband is the wifes "head".
Peace.

[Lamafacaja]

Originally Posted by sparrowhawk28

Thank you for your response! It's good to know that there are other younger women wearing head coverings.



Thank you for your help! I was wondering about whether there was something more appropriate for unmarried women. Personally I think God calls every woman to live a life of honour and modesty (of which veiling is a part), but not everyone discerns that call.

I have a couple more questions for everyone:

I am hoping to go to Holy Hour tomorrow night. I won't have any sort of veil then as I haven't decided on which one to buy yet. Do you think it will be okay for me to just wear some sort of coloured scarf over my hair until I get a proper veil?

How exactly are the round veils worn? Is there much of a significance between them and the triangular veils? I'm trying to work out which style I should get, but am not sure of the best or most appropriate one.

No, it's all just personal preference. But as a general rule of thumb I'd suggest that longer the hair, the longer the veil.

[Sirach2]

I have noticed some personal innuendos suggesting that one must use a head covering. Without reading the entire thread to know whether this has been posted, here is the official stand of the Church on this issue, just in case anyone is becoming overly scrupulous due to other posters' remarks.

http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/h..._in_church.htm

Head Coverings in Church

　
Cardinal Raymond Burke, Prefect of the Apostolic Signatura, responded to an inquiry on this subject. While not a formal judgment of the Signatura, it reflects the opinion of the Church's highest canonical official after the Pope. Note in his answer that there is neither a canonical or moral obligation for women to use a head-covering. Even in the case of the Extraordinary Form there is merely "an expectation," whose failure to fulfil does not entail sin.
image of original letter

4 April 2011

Dear ________,
Thank you for your letter postmarked January 5, 2009, regarding the custom of the chapel veil. I offer you my sincere apologies for failing to respond to your letter, in a timely manner. I had placed your letter with some other papers. and have only recently discovered that I never responded to it.

The wearing of a chapel veil for women is not required when women assist at the Holy Mass according to the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite. It is, however, the expectation that women who assist at the Mass according to the Extraordinary Form cover their heads, as was the practice at the time that the 1962 Missale Romanum was in force. It is not, however, a sin to participate in the Holy Mass according to the Extraordinary Form without a veil.

I wish you an abundant share in the strong graces of the Lenten Season.
Thank you for the assurance of your prayers for me. As a Cardinal of the Holy Roman Church, I have need of your prayers, now more than ever.
Invoking God's blessing upon you, while confiding your intentions to the intercession of Our Lady of Guadalupe, I remain
Yours devotedly in Christ,

Raymond Leo Cardinal Burke
Archbishop Emeritus of Saint Louis
Prefect, Supreme Tribunal of the Apostolic Signatura
　

Original FAQ from 2004

Canon Law
The 1917 Code of Canon Law. canon 1262, stated,
1. It is desirable that, consistent with ancient discipline, women be separated from men in church.
2. Men, in a church or outside a church, while they are assisting at sacred rites, shall be bare-headed, unless the approved mores of the people or peculiar circumstances of things determine otherwise; women, however, shall have a covered head and be modestly dressed, especially when they approach the table of the Lord.
When the 1983 Code of Canon Law was promulgated this canon was not re-issued; indeed, canon 6, 1, abrogated it, along with every other canon of the 1917 Code not intentionally incorporated into the new legislation.
Canon 6
1. When this Code goes into effect, the following are abrogated:
(1) the Code of Canon Law promulgated in 1917;
(2) other universal or particular laws contrary to the prescriptions of this Code, unless particular laws are otherwise expressly provided for;
(3) any universal or particular penal laws whatsoever issued by the Apostolic See, unless they are contained in this Code;
(4) other universal disciplinary laws dealing with a matter which is regulated ex integro by this Code.
Thus, there is no longer any canonical obligation for women to wear a head-covering, much less the more specific veil.

[Hmgbrd]

[quote=Sirach2;9256705]I have noticed some personal innuendos suggesting that one must use a head covering. Without reading the entire thread to know whether this has been posted, here is the official stand of the Church on this issue, just in case anyone is becoming overly scrupulous due to other posters' remarks.

I believe that if an individual would like to veil during mass. Let them. It is their personal decision. Considering that most women in my lifetime have not and do not veil, it is obvious that it is not mandatory. At the same time, those of us that do decide to do so are not ignorant or misinformed concerning canon law and have to be corrected. I, for one, believe that if one wishes to veil it is a personal decision. I do not recommend, correct or condem anyone who choses not to do so. Just my 2 cents. BTW, if we enjoy discussing our personal reasons why we started to and continue to veil, please allow us to do so.

[Sirach2]

I believe that if an individual would like to veil during mass. Let them. It is their personal decision. Considering that most women in my lifetime have not and do not veil, it is obvious that it is not mandatory. At the same time, those of us that do decide to do so are not ignorant or misinformed concerning canon law and have to be corrected. I, for one, believe that if one wishes to veil it is a personal decision. I do not recommend, correct or condem anyone who choses not to do so. Just my 2 cents. BTW, if we enjoy discussing our personal reasons why we started to and continue to veil, please allow us to do so.

Re your last sentence, I don't believe I said anywhere that the topic is off limits, or that a person who wishes to veil is "ignorant or misinformed." You took offense needlessly.

I agree that it is a personal preference and the only reason I posted the official teaching of the Church was to prevent anyone from thinking they "MUST" veil or else be out of sync with scripture or commiting a sin for failure to do so. These were my exact words: "I have noticed some personal innuendos suggesting that one must [as in obligated by a mandate] use a head covering."

[floresco]

Originally Posted by Portrait

Neither have I said that it is a sin for a woman not to wear a veil, dear sister. What I have argued is that there is a strong biblical case for a woman to wear a veil in divine worship for both theological and moral reasons. Moreover, I cannot see in any official declaration where Holy Mother Church has repudiated this biblical teaching as being culturally bound or no longer applicable. Certainly the highly respected Reverend Fathers, Rumble and Carty, did not consider this teaching to be irrelevant or culturally bound. On the contrary, they appear to have thought that St. Paul's teaching had perpetual validity and therefore continued to be applicable, which makes perfect sense since not even the Church can trump Sacred Scripture and its timeless teaching.

It is not merely my understanding of SS, dear sister, but also that of the Fathers Rumble and Carty, who were possibly among the most renowned Catholic apologists of the 20th. century. Would these knowledgeable and learned men have so misunderstood Scripture and made such a fundamental mistake concerning the continued biblical requirement for women to veil in divine worship?

You have claimed that veiling is not optional, based on an argument from Scripture. A couple of priests, even renowned apologists, do not have more authority on this question than Cardinal Burke. He says that covering the head is optional.

I actually have come across an official Church document that mentions that head-covering is a culturally bound, but I cannot find it right now and do not have time to look for it. But even without this, Cardinal Burke's letter is clear enough that women are not obliged to veil in Church.

Frankly, your comment " not even the Church can trump Sacred Scripture and its timeless teaching" suggests a Protestant view of revelation and is not Catholics understand the matter. The Church interprets Scripture. It is not for individuals to decide what it means.

[Portrait]

Originally Posted by floresco

You have claimed that veiling is not optional, based on an argument from Scripture. A couple of priests, even renowned apologists, do not have more authority on this question than Cardinal Burke. He says that covering the head is optional.

I actually have come across an official Church document that mentions that head-covering is a culturally bound, but I cannot find it right now and do not have time to look for it. But even without this, Cardinal Burke's letter is clear enough that women are not obliged to veil in Church.

Frankly, your comment " not even the Church can trump Sacred Scripture and its timeless teaching" suggests a Protestant view of revelation and is not Catholics understand the matter. The Church interprets Scripture. It is not for individuals to decide what it means.

Dear floresco,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Thankyou for the above, dear sister, and please pardon the delay in my response, but I have been heavily engaged on another thread

First, with respect to Cardinal Burke's letter, dear sister, it is "not a formal judgement of the Signatura", but simply "reflects (his) opinion". Thus whilst he may be the highest canonical official after the Pope, that does not mean that it is impossible for him to be mistaken upon some particular issue and for some ordinary priests to be correct. Moreover, we need to be careful that we do not fall into the modern tendency of ascribing a creeping infallibility to every statement, declaration or opinion given by a Bishop or Cardinal, or even by the Holy Father himself. This is an all too common habit as these boards bear ample witness.

The biblical case for women donning a veil in public worship is extremely cogent and is not culturally bound, as some insist in wrongly maintaining. St. Paul plainly states, dear sister, that "any women who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled dishonours her head - it is the same as if her head was shaven" (I Cor. 11: 5). The woman who is bare-headed in public worship dishonours "her head" ( a reference to the man) by assuming equality with him by keeping her head uncovered. The woman who chooses to discard the veil should take her defiance of modesty to its logical conclusion. If she prefers a bare head, then she ought to remove her hair; womanly feeling forbids the latter, then it should forbid the former, for the like shame attaches to both (see I Cor. 11: 6). That the biblical requirement to veil is not culturally bound, is abundantly clear from verse 10: "That is why a woman ought to have a veil on her head, because of the angels..." (emphasis mine). St. Paul realized the presence of angels everywhere, but especially in the assemblies of the faithful. Well, if angels are present in our public worship, as indeed they are, should women demean themselves in the presence of such pure spirits? Since woman's subjection to man is a divine appointement, she is to cover her head in recognition of the palce assigned to her in the created order, and veiling is the symbol of her authority to approach God in divine worship. This is done "because of the angels", in other words great care must be taken not to offend them by any impropriety on our part (cf. Heb. 1: 14). Such an offence would occur if women discarded the veil and thereby displayed their disregard for the station given to them by their creation. This, dear sister, has nothing to do with the prevailing custom of those days, but is a timeless truth that has continuing validity, for the angels have never ceased being present in divine worship and thus could still be offended by any impropriety. Later St. Paul says that "If anyone is disposed to be contentious, we recognize no other practice, nor do the chuches of God" (v. 16). St. Paul is saying that there is no such practice of permitting women to remain unveiled in the Christian assemblies of the faithul. The practice that women should be clad as those in subjection is universal and the the contrary is unknown.

To conclude, I would say with St. Paul: "Judge for yourselves; is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered?" If a woman attends divine worship uncovered she goes contrary to the principles of subordination which the Creator had in view in giving her long hair. For a time she effects equality with the man and so does what is uncomely and unbecoming. Thus women should don a veil not merely as a mere act of humility but because it is an acknowledgement of her subjection to man and to ensure that the ever present angels are not offended by any impropriety.

Please re-read my citation from Fathers Rumble and Carty in a previous post to you and I do not think that you will be able to fault their argument, even if you disagree with it.

This will be my final post on this topic as there is nothing further that I can say. Women either accept the biblical requirement to don a veil or they reject it and try to explain it away as being 'culturally bound' and irrelevant.


Warmest good wishes,




Portrait




Pax

[Springkeeper]

Originally Posted by Portrait

Please re-read my citation from Fathers Rumble and Carty in a previous post to you and I do not think that you will be able to fault their argument, even if you disagree with it.

Where did you obtain the citation from Fathers Rumble and Carty? I have their radio replies series and they are amazing.

[Portrait]

Originally Posted by Springkeeper

Where did you obtain the citation from Fathers Rumble and Carty? I have their radio replies series and they are amazing.

Dear Springkeeper,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Thanyou for your enquiry and only too glad to help.

You will find that citation in Radio Replies, Vol. 2, p. 258, Question 1053, Tan Books PB edition 1979. Trust that is of some help to you, my dear friend.

Yes, I could not agree more, Fathers Rumble & Carty are amazing and their three volumes of Replies basicly comprises of a unique body of apologetics, orthodox and biblically based to boot. They being dead yet speak and, unless we are prejudiced against anything that was written the day before yesterday, we should avail ourselves of their sound and wholesome teaching. Moreover, their biblically based argument for the veiling of women has not suddenly become untrue and redundant but continues to be as valid today as it always has been. Sadly, many contemporary Catholics are, owing to poor catechesis, ignorant or vague respecting the biblical obligation for women to don a veil in divine worship.

God bless, dear friend, and please let me know via a PM if you think I can be of further help.
Have a jolly splendid weekend, whatever your plans.


Warmest good wishes,



Portrait



Pax

[Sirach2]

Originally Posted by Portrait

Sadly, many contemporary Catholics are, owing to poor catechesis, ignorant or vague respecting the biblical obligation for women to don a veil in divine worship.

You are elevating your interpretation scripture, which was addressed by St. Paul to the culture of his age, as the absolute rule of law. I find it hard to understand how you readily lay aside the command of Christ, "He who hears you (the Magisterium) hears ME." This is the error of Protestants, that they interpret the bible their way and will not accept the teaching of our governing leaders who succeed St. Peter. I invite you to read Dei Verbum, Chapter II, Article 10, which states:

It is clear, therefore, that sacred tradition, Sacred Scripture AND the teaching authority of the Church, in accord with God's most wise design, are so linked and joined together that one cannot stand without the others, and that all together and each in its own way under the action of the one Holy Spirit contribute effectively to the salvation of souls.

Clearly, all three are linked, and it is not simply scripture alone to which we give our faithful obedience. Your view, while admirable if it is formed by personal choice and not by rigid legalism ... is strictly Protestant sola scriptura. Since the Church haas removed the formal obligation to veil, you are overstepping Her Divine Authority in proclaiming your biblical interpretation as being more perfect and correct.

Thank you for leaving the thread, for I am concerned that your rigorist views may detrimentally influence others.

[floresco]

Originally Posted by Portrait

Women either accept the biblical requirement to don a veil or they reject it and try to explain it away as being 'culturally bound' and irrelevant.

I agree that there is no point in further discussion if you are determined to make personal interpretations of Scripture that go beyond Church teaching. I want to point out, however, that I do not recognize a biblical requirement to don a veil but nevertheless consider it a beneficial practice and always cover my head in the presence of Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament. Furthermore, I accept my station as a woman and my husband's authority over me. My disagreement with your claims does not come from any desire to justify my actions.

[MissRose73]

I wore scarves on and off for some time at Mass before I felt the call to cover up for Mass & other things like Confession & Adoration just over a year ago. No one said to me "Cover up or else". I know a few people did not like that I started to veil but I ignored their objections, they stopped complaining eventually. No one says anything to me regardless of my head covering of choice at either Mass form unless they are making a compliment on what I am wearing and/or the way I wear it.