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  #31  
Old May 12, '12, 11:17 am
peace2u2 peace2u2 is offline
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Default Re: Abortion and saving a woman's life

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Originally Posted by SecretGarden View Post
Does anyone know where inside the Catechism or other Catholic documents where it explains what happens when a second trimester pregnant woman develops a life threatening disease and doctors want to remove the child to save her life? If she is under 24 weeks pregnant, it would be considered abortion after preterm labour. I know the Catholic church is very specific when it comes to saving the unborn but it is also very gray and compassionate the mother's life is also at risk. I'm looking for specific websites to which I can refer to.

Thanks for all your help.
SG
http://www.melissaohden.com/

http://www.lifenews.com/2012/04/26/a...aved-her-life/

http://www.saintgianna.org/
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  #32  
Old May 13, '12, 6:17 pm
Newbie2 Newbie2 is offline
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Default Re: Abortion and saving a woman's life

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Originally Posted by RyanBlack View Post
Another permissible scenario would be the removal of a cancerous uterus. The intent is not the killing of the unborn child, but the removal of a diseased organ.
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Originally Posted by PrayHarder View Post
This is called the principle of double effect. To simplify, it is the idea that while trying to do something good or neutral, and something bad happens, the act is still justified. In this case, while trying to save someone's life (good), the baby is killed in the process (bad). This is different than an abortion because the intent was not to kill the baby and every reasonable precaution is taken to save the baby's life. Thomas Aquinas is the one who originally pondered this tricky theological concept so I'll leave a more thorough explanation to him.
I would add that the principle of double effect holds for actions where there is a forseeable bad second effect, not intended, but nonetheless "certain". One of the best examples is the uterus with cancer; when it is removed, the unborn baby will most certainly die (assuming that it is not near term).
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  #33  
Old May 13, '12, 8:45 pm
THP THP is offline
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Default Re: Abortion and saving a woman's life

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Originally Posted by vera dicere View Post
Despite what the pro-aborts say, there is actually NO condition that requires the death of the foetus to save the mother. The conditions that are life threatening can be allievated if the child is delivered, alive. And the things like pulmonary hypertension, eclampsia, et cetera, the mother can survive till viability.

However, ectopic pregnancy is a different kettle of fish as the intention of removal of affected tube is not to kill the child.

So yeah, you can have all the sex you want - as long as its with your husband of course, and you don't have to kill those babies because some poorly educated pro-abort tells you that x y z condition will kill you if you don't nail the little blighter first.
I disagree. What about HELLP syndrome or acute fatty liver of pregnancy at 19 or 20 weeks (admittedly incredibly rare). The only treatment for either of these is delivery and if it develops that early and the mom dies the baby will obviously die, that doesn't seem like a good decision to me. I challenge anyone here to look that mom in the eye and tell her she is going to die because it would be wrong to deliver her baby pre-viable. I certainly couldn't do it.

In an ectopic pregnancy, of course the reason to remove the tube is to kill the pregnancy (thereby saving the mother's life). It's really a ridiculous technicality to say that giving methotrexate or doing a salpingostomy (which are both better because they save the tube) is in any way morally different than a salpingectomy. The point of all 3 of them is to end the growing pregnancy in the tube before it ruptures and the mom bleeds to death.

As a side note, what is the Church's stance on terminating a molar pregnancy?
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  #34  
Old May 13, '12, 8:50 pm
PumpkinSeed PumpkinSeed is offline
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Default Re: Abortion and saving a woman's life

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Originally Posted by Cristiano View Post
Abortion is abortion and it is intrinsically evil. No abortion is permitted even to spare the life of the mother.

A surgery that could put the life of the fetus at risk in order to save the life of the mother is not automatically considered intrinsically evil.

For a reference you could do a Google search for documents associated with the JohnPaul II institute. I am sure that that it is the easiest way to find more details.
If its an ectopic pregnancy she may get her tube removed. It is not considered abortion.
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  #35  
Old May 13, '12, 10:30 pm
thistle thistle is offline
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Default Re: Abortion and saving a woman's life

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Originally Posted by Dymphna82 View Post
Yeah, but with the chances of dying any other way, God's church isn't going to tell me to go drop dead.
So you are saying that if your life is in danger while you are pregnant you will tell the doctor to save you and murder your baby?
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  #36  
Old May 13, '12, 10:42 pm
underacloud underacloud is online now
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Default Re: Abortion and saving a woman's life

Quote:
Originally Posted by THP View Post
In an ectopic pregnancy, of course the reason to remove the tube is to kill the pregnancy (thereby saving the mother's life). It's really a ridiculous technicality to say that giving methotrexate or doing a salpingostomy (which are both better because they save the tube) is in any way morally different than a salpingectomy. The point of all 3 of them is to end the growing pregnancy in the tube before it ruptures and the mom bleeds to death.
The reason is not to kill the pregnancy, but to prevent the damaged tube from endangering the mother's life. The unfortunate outcome (the second, unintended effect) of this is the death of the child. This is a well established example of the principle of double effect.

It is not a mere technically, although it may seem that way. It is an important moral premise/principle, which can be stated a number of ways, such as...

- the ends do not justify the means.

- we may not do evil that good may come of it.

If we begin to accept that people can act immorally because their intentions and ends are good, we open a can of worms that would undermine notions of sin and allow all manner of evil in the name of some good (however and whoever decides what it is).


Quote:
Originally Posted by THP View Post
As a side note, what is the Church's stance on terminating a molar pregnancy?
A molar pregnancy is considered as any other form of miscarriage. There is either no fetus or a deceased fetus. In fact, if untreated molar pregancy is quite dangerous so I believe uterine evacuation is standard.

Do you mean what is the stance if a molar pregancy occurs concurrently with a viable fetus? In that case, it's a lot harder, medically and morally.
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  #37  
Old May 13, '12, 11:31 pm
HelenRose HelenRose is offline
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Default Re: Abortion and saving a woman's life

As Catholics must show forth God's love and justice with compassion. Abortion is an evil but we are dealing with people whose lives are precious to God. Let us not insult one another. Pro-abort and Anti-abortion are insulting expressions. They are intended to inflict wounds.

To carry our message we must not use those terms. Pro-Life and Pro-Choice: we all know what these mean and they are quite acceptable terms. We do not need to insult one another.
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  #38  
Old May 13, '12, 11:47 pm
underacloud underacloud is online now
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Default Re: Abortion and saving a woman's life

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Originally Posted by HelenRose View Post
As Catholics must show forth God's love and justice with compassion. Abortion is an evil but we are dealing with people whose lives are precious to God. Let us not insult one another. Pro-abort and Anti-abortion are insulting expressions. They are intended to inflict wounds.

To carry our message we must not use those terms. Pro-Life and Pro-Choice: we all know what these mean and they are quite acceptable terms. We do not need to insult one another.

What is insulting about "anti-abortion"? It is a semantically correct and unambiguous term. Any offense taken is hardly the problem of using these particular words, but if they are offended by the content of the message, very well. Pro-life is a nice term that frames the subject in a more affirming manner and is appropriate to use too, but not as a means of "softening" the message.

Pro-choice is a vague term that has become a polite euphemism for pro-abortion. It is an attempt to obfuscate the truth. That's the term that shouldn't be used.
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  #39  
Old May 14, '12, 12:13 am
THP THP is offline
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Default Re: Abortion and saving a woman's life

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Originally Posted by underacloud View Post
The reason is not to kill the pregnancy, but to prevent the damaged tube from endangering the mother's life. The unfortunate outcome (the second, unintended effect) of this is the death of the child. This is a well established example of the principle of double effect.

It is not a mere technically, although it may seem that way. It is an important moral premise/principle, which can be stated a number of ways, such as...
.
It absolutely is to kill the pregnancy. If there were no pregnancy, there would be no reason to remove the tube. The only reason you are removing the tube is because of the pregnancy.

In the case of tube removal versus methotrexate, it seems to me that not only is the end worse, the means are worse as well (surgery and a tube removal).
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  #40  
Old May 14, '12, 12:19 am
HelenRose HelenRose is offline
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Default Re: Abortion and saving a woman's life

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Originally Posted by underacloud View Post
What is insulting about "anti-abortion"? It is a semantically correct and unambiguous term. Any offense taken is hardly the problem of using these particular words, but if they are offended by the content of the message, very well. Pro-life is a nice term that frames the subject in a more affirming manner and is appropriate to use too, but not as a means of "softening" the message.

Pro-choice is a vague term that has become a polite euphemism for pro-abortion. It is an attempt to obfuscate the truth. That's the term that shouldn't be used.
We all know what pro-choice means. We all know what pro-life means. I think my problem is with terms like pro-abort. Terms like that are intended to inflict pain. Part of my dislike for all the negative terminogy stems from listening to President Obama's crafty way of twisting and turning words. I don't want us as Catholics to engage in that kind of word crafting and the insulting manner the left has for those of us who value human life. I hope that we can learn how to engage in this discussion with greater appreciation for our rich language.

I have stated before that the problem that the Church has with fighting pro-choice people is that they speak in "sound bites" the Church speaks in complete sentences and well thought out paragraphs. I realize that sound bites are effective but our using the tactic of sound bites brings Catholic dialog down to the same level.
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  #41  
Old May 14, '12, 1:01 am
Et Cetera Et Cetera is offline
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Default Re: Abortion and saving a woman's life

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Originally Posted by thistle View Post
So you are saying that if your life is in danger while you are pregnant you will tell the doctor to save you and murder your baby?
Murder would imply malicious intent. She would be saving herself, and the fetal death would be a result of the medical treatment. This is called the double effect, and Catholicism accepts the resulting fetal death if the goal is to save the mother's life.

And if the the mother and fetus are supposed to be equal, why is everyone here looking to put the fetal welfare above that of the mother? It seems like you're saying the unborn takes precedence over the mother. Remember that the mother's death would cause a lot of pain to her family and friends, not to mention that it would deprive her of all of the enjoyable aspects of life. A mother is not an inanimate carrier for a child.

I don't think that a woman should be looked down upon for saving herself. If women are expected to die in pregnancy complications, then you could make the leap to say that for women every sexual encounter is like Russian roulette.
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  #42  
Old May 14, '12, 1:03 am
Et Cetera Et Cetera is offline
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Default Re: Abortion and saving a woman's life

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Originally Posted by THP View Post
It absolutely is to kill the pregnancy. If there were no pregnancy, there would be no reason to remove the tube. The only reason you are removing the tube is because of the pregnancy.

In the case of tube removal versus methotrexate, it seems to me that not only is the end worse, the means are worse as well (surgery and a tube removal).
But if there weren't a medical complication with the pregnancy, the mother and doctors wouldn't be considering the tube removal.
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  #43  
Old May 14, '12, 1:28 am
thistle thistle is offline
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Default Re: Abortion and saving a woman's life

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Originally Posted by Et Cetera View Post
Murder would imply malicious intent. She would be saving herself, and the fetal death would be a result of the medical treatment. This is called the double effect, and Catholicism accepts the resulting fetal death if the goal is to save the mother's life.

And if the the mother and fetus are supposed to be equal, why is everyone here looking to put the fetal welfare above that of the mother? It seems like you're saying the unborn takes precedence over the mother. Remember that the mother's death would cause a lot of pain to her family and friends, not to mention that it would deprive her of all of the enjoyable aspects of life. A mother is not an inanimate carrier for a child.

I don't think that a woman should be looked down upon for saving herself. If women are expected to die in pregnancy complications, then you could make the leap to say that for women every sexual encounter is like Russian roulette.
That's not what the OP is about. The issue is not about trying to save the mother and the unintended consequence is the death of the baby. The issue is about the direct killing of the baby in order to save the mother. That is forbidden.
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  #44  
Old May 14, '12, 1:44 am
Et Cetera Et Cetera is offline
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Default Re: Abortion and saving a woman's life

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Originally Posted by thistle View Post
That's not what the OP is about. The issue is not about trying to save the mother and the unintended consequence is the death of the baby. The issue is about the direct killing of the baby in order to save the mother. That is forbidden.
This could be the same thing depending on wording/point of view.
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  #45  
Old May 14, '12, 2:13 am
thistle thistle is offline
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Default Re: Abortion and saving a woman's life

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Originally Posted by Et Cetera View Post
This could be the same thing depending on wording/point of view.
Okay. Let me be clear. The intentional direct killing of a baby in the womb to save the mother is forbidden.
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