Would life be a disaster if no one believed in anything? - Page 3

TEPO · #31 May 11, '12, 4:39 pm

If no one believed in anything we would be animals who act on instinct only... Just go to the zoo and visit the primate section and there you'll find your answer.

Hooh, hooh, hoooh; hah, hah..!

presidentjlh · #32 May 11, '12, 8:05 pm

If no one believed in anything, nothing would separate us from the other mammals. Belief...thought...is what separates us and is a result of our special place as given by God.

Gaber · #33 May 12, '12, 6:19 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by presidentjlh

If no one believed in anything, nothing would separate us from the other mammals. Belief...thought...is what separates us and is a result of our special place as given by God.

Yes, but it is an iterim condition that can be got past even on Earth, that being the point of having beliefs in the first place: to get past them.

TEPO · #34 May 12, '12, 6:33 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaber

Yes, but it is an iterim condition that can be got past even on Earth, that being the point of having beliefs in the first place: to get past them.

Are you trying to say that having beliefs is temporary, and that at some point -humanity will lose this ability..?

Gaber · #35 May 12, '12, 8:55 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by TEPO

Are you trying to say that having beliefs is temporary, and that at some point -humanity will lose this ability..?

Why are you viewing beliefs the way you are? Because fo some belief? Do you not prefer knowing, even intellectually, to believing? Any beleif is temporary, up to the point it is replaced by one more congruent with Reality or by knowledge. The most insiduous beliefs are the ones framed by the subject/object nature of common state of human awareness. That can be overcome even now with some work, belief or no belief. So while belief itself as a medium of ad hoc hypotheses may always be useful, the sooner we grow out of belief being our primary mode of encountering Reality, the better, yes? And whatever humanity does as a whole, which will be to grow in or lose awareness, any individual can always, if they wish, go past belief of any kind and to the degree they wish to accomplish. If that wasn't so, we would neither have the Saints and Sages of the Ages, nor good science.

TEPO · #36 May 12, '12, 11:18 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaber

Why are you viewing beliefs the way you are? Because fo some belief? Do you not prefer knowing, even intellectually, to believing? Any beleif is temporary, up to the point it is replaced by one more congruent with Reality or by knowledge. The most insiduous beliefs are the ones framed by the subject/object nature of common state of human awareness. That can be overcome even now with some work, belief or no belief. So while belief itself as a medium of ad hoc hypotheses may always be useful, the sooner we grow out of belief being our primary mode of encountering Reality, the better, yes? And whatever humanity does as a whole, which will be to grow in or lose awareness, any individual can always, if they wish, go past belief of any kind and to the degree they wish to accomplish. If that wasn't so, we would neither have the Saints and Sages of the Ages, nor good science.

Belief is a natural human instinct equal to our human instinct to influence...
Examples:
-- we're told by science that global warming is true because polar ice caps are melting. But I've never been to the north pole and have witnessed no ice melt there.
-- I've been told by my television that there is a holy war in the middle east. But I've never been to the middle east.

So can you see why belief is important as well as the constant tendency to influence... Without belief, I should theoretically not believe any news or science.

Gaber · #37 May 12, '12, 2:49 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TEPO

Belief is a natural human instinct equal to our human instinct to influence...
Examples:
-- we're told by science that global warming is true because polar ice caps are melting. But I've never been to the north pole and have witnessed no ice melt there.
-- I've been told by my television that there is a holy war in the middle east. But I've never been to the middle east.

So can you see why belief is important as well as the constant tendency to influence... Without belief, I should theoretically not believe any news or science.

Well, I personally think of belief as higher than instinct. I wouldn't put such a thing on the level of a more animal like state of awareness.

And perhaps I'd go more with a word like "trust" then "belief" in the instances you cite. "Belief" is a condition where one takes a paradigm to be real, or an idea to be real, either through misperception, incomplete knowledge, or, as I think is most common, inculcation by force of culture from family on up to worldviews held by groups. That might include both religion and science, as both are lacking in completion. And as they are, they can't complete each other. they hardly complement each other. They are both, as you might see one day, very mechanistic and materialist com[pared to a higher or deeper understanding of the relationship of the human expereince to Reality, or God. In the instances you mention above, we do trust that reportage is in some way and to some degree accurate. But we still don't have a complete expereince, other than maybe computinjg from an accepted premise that seems useful until something more accurate comes along.

So there is nothing necessarily intrindically wrong with belief or trust, only that we have to know that what we belive is a working hypothesis regarding an impression, not an exact 1/1 mental correspondence with Reality itself. In short, the world is our projection given our limited span of awareness regarding it. That is why it is recommended to go beyond the discursive mind so we experientially know what we are dealing with as a mental instrument.

presidentjlh · #38 May 13, '12, 10:08 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaber

Yes, but it is an iterim condition that can be got past even on Earth, that being the point of having beliefs in the first place: to get past them.

But is not that within itself a belief? Isn't all knowledge in the end a belief, albeit a belief we have 100% faith in?

Gaber · #39 May 14, '12, 4:23 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by presidentjlh

But is not that within itself a belief? Isn't all knowledge in the end a belief, albeit a belief we have 100% faith in?

It can be a belief until expereinced. Knowledge your part in Creation is rltive and relatively useful, of course! But is "I" a belief? "Me," or person, cannot be anything else but a beleif, yoour story to yourself of who you "are." But that which you call "I" cannot be. Look into what that "I" is.