Salvation for Non-Catholics

[pablope]

[quote=batman1973;9288365]

Originally Posted by Makko52

Agreed! The Bible doesn't belong to the Catholic Church, no matter how bad it's members want to believe that it does.

Yeah...right...and continue misusing it....for creating doctrines and cults...and schisms and splits.....which history attests has occurred, continue to occur, and will occur...without the proper protection and guidance of the Church that wrote it.

[pablope]

[quote][quote=batman1973;9289187]

Originally Posted by Jim Dandy

First, The NT was NOT written by, or for Catholics.

Residual from Mormonism?

That is not fact.

According to whom? Do you have the authority to declare such?

The NT was compiled by the Catholic church.

Correct...to be used for the Mass, not to extract doctrine, create cults and cause splits.

But, God never intended for His Word to belong to one group.

Actually, God intended only there to be only one Church...not several thousand denominations....God never intended there to be Lutherans, methodists, etc.......

If anything good came from the Reformation, is that it freed the Word from the literal chains that kept it to the pulpits and into the hands of man, as it was intended.

Let me ask you....is splitting the will of God? Is causing division of the Church the will of God?

If not.....then is the split caused by the Reformation the will of God?

I think its kinda funny (in a sad way) that catholics want to try and remind protestants where the bible came from,

It is a historical fact...so why are you bothered by it?

but then admit a real lack of understanding of the book, If it's yours, as you claim, you should know it better than I.

Really....catholics do not understand it? Or is it your private interpretation that is causing all the confusion....started by your grandfather...Luther?

Sorry if this hurts feelings and seems uncharitable, but it's the truth,

The truth according to Batman1973.

[PJM]

=chosen people;9282921]Let's break this down: Do some Christians believe that if Hitler in the moments before his death was truly repentant and accepted Jesus into his heart, that he would have been forgiven? if so, is this forgiveness automatic for any Christian regardless of past actions or only a possibility?

I SUSPECT THAT BY true NECESSITY AND DEVINE JUSTICE IT'S MORE COMPLICATED THAN THAT

God being both Perfectly "Fair" and "Just" MUST judge us based on 1. What He HAS made possible for us to know; not merely what WE choose to accept and believe 2. on what Opportunities He HAS made available for actual Confession and "repentance and conversion" WHILE WE COULD make that decission. Acts.3: 19 "Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,"

This accounts in GREAT part; why God alone can make the judgment.

Matt.4: 17 "From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Mark.1: 4 "John the baptizer appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent, and believe in the gospel."

Only God can know if those who have frely chosen to pass on granted GRACE and opportunity can and will be accpted at the Moment of death.

God Bless,
pat/PJM

[PJM]

=Kristin234;9285334]God tells us that we must believe in Him and we must be born again in order to be saved. God tells us that those who believe in Him are free from condemnation and that those who do not believe in Him are already condemned.

People can say that it doesn't matter what people think and that only God knows and God can save whoever He wants, but the thing is...HE tells us who He will save and HE tells us the ONLY way He will save us.

It is clear as night and day. You believe in Jesus Christ = You will be saved. You reject Jesus Christ = you will not be saved.

The Bible CLEARLY says that and those who reject that idea are either ignorant or just don't want to believe it. You cannot say God does indeed say that and then say He can still save anyone He wants even if they don't believe in Jesus. If that is how it is then God would be a liar because He would be going against His Word. My God is not a liar so I will believe His Word.

No, dear freind; your I FEAR [with biblical backup] don't KNOW

The One INFALLIBLE RULE for correct Understanding of the Bible is NEVER-EVER can [does if correctly understood] One passage negate or make void another theaching

John 3: 5 “Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” [36] He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.”

Matt.19: 17 “If you would enter life, keep the commandments."

2Cor.9: 13 "Under the test of this service, you will glorify God by your obedience in acknowledging the gospel of Christ, and by the generosity of your contribution for them and for all others;"

Salvation is a PROCESS; you have accted teachings of Mortal men over God's Own.

God Bless you,
pat/PJM

[Jim Dandy]

[quote=batman1973;9289187]

Originally Posted by Jim Dandy

First, The NT was NOT written by, or for Catholics. That is not fact. The NT was compiled by the Catholic church. But, God never intended for His Word to belong to one group. If anything good came from the Reformation, is that it freed the Word from the literal chains that kept it to the pulpits and into the hands of man, as it was intended. I think its kinda funny (in a sad way) that catholics want to try and remind protestants where the bible came from, but then admit a real lack of understanding of the book, If it's yours, as you claim, you should know it better than I.
Sorry if this hurts feelings and seems uncharitable, but it's the truth,

Fact: the sacred authors of the NT were members of the Church founded by Christ for the salvation of the world -- the 2,000-year-old Catholic Church. To whom do you claim they were writing? To the Two-Seed-In-The-Spirit Predestinatian Baptists (originated 1826)? And to the Evangelical Presbyterians (originated 1981)?

Two of the criteria used by the Catholic Church in selecting the writings to be included in her collection of sacred Scriptures -- a collection she named the New Testament -- was that a writing had to have been read aloud during the liturgy of the Church, and it had to comport with her teachings. Those writings which did not reflect the teachings of the Church were not accepted into the canon.

Protestants have misinterpreted the NT from the very beginning of their existence in the 16th century. Two of the doctrines that form the "pillars of Protestantism" -- Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide -- are not biblical. The "real lack of understanding" is on the part of Protestants, and accounts for the thousands of conflicting and competing Protestant denominations in existence today -- and counting.

Bibles were chained to prevent their removal from Churches, so that they would remain accessible to the few people who could read. These were voluminous, handwritten Bibles, whose pages were animal skins, and every one of them cost about three years' wages to produce. The chain was to safeguard them for the people, not keep them from the people. It's the same principle banks follow today by chaining pens to their counters. Please read the history of the Bible written by trained, accredited, peer reviewed historians -- or at least by someone who is well-educated in the subject. Your sources have not served you well.

Peace be with you.

Jim Dandy
Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!

[grandfather]

[quote=meltzerboy;9289429]

Originally Posted by grandfather

Maybe imperfect is the wrong word; incomplete might be better.

The idea that God made something imperfect or incomplete, left something undone for us to finish is not compatible with our common heritage or patrimony. Christians accept the story or creation and fall from grace that comes from the Jews.

God made everything that exists and it was good. Then things got broken. Of all the people in the world, God chose the Jews to bring salvation, redemption, restoration to the entire world.

[meltzerboy]

[quote=grandfather;9291572]

Originally Posted by meltzerboy

The idea that God made something imperfect or incomplete, left something undone for us to finish is not compatible with our common heritage or patrimony. Christians accept the story or creation and fall from grace that comes from the Jews.

God made everything that exists and it was good. Then things got broken. Of all the people in the world, God chose the Jews to bring salvation, redemption, restoration to the entire world.

But doesn't that make the world "incomplete"? Otherwise, why did G-d need the Jews, or anyone else, to bring redemption and restoration to the world? This is consistent with Jewish teaching, which does not believe in original sin and the fall from grace. The challenge to mankind was there from the beginning. Creating an incomplete (instead of imperfect) world is, however, itself the ultimate good because it gives us a mission, a goal to make the world a more fit place to live for all. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this particular point.

[1voice]

Originally Posted by HailHolyQueen90

Will non-Catholic Christians make it to heaven? If so, how will this happen?

Will Jews, God's chosen for the first covenant, make it to heaven? If so, why? If not, why not?

If Jesus Christ founded one true Church, what happens to those who are outside of it?

What are pre and post Vatican II views on this?

Please show me references, I hear different things from different people and I want at least some sort of official straight answer, if there even is one.

In order to accept the fact that people outside of the Catholic religion can go to heaven one would have to accept the fact that they are true Christians.

Many Catholics believe that Catholicism = the only true Christianity.

Many Catholics also believe that God leads the only true Church exclusively through the Catholic hierarchy.
Given those assumptions on the part of many Catholics ... It would be impossible to present a case for the salvation for non Catholics that would be accepted by someone with those preconceptions.

That said...
Protestantism has made an important contribution to the realization of Christian faith, fulfilling a positive function in the development of the Christian message and, above all, often giving rise to a sincere and profound faith in the individual non-Catholic Christian, whose separation from the Catholic affirmation has nothing to do with the pertinacia characteristic of heresy.
...Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, The Meaning of Christian Brotherhood, pp. 87-88

[1voice]

[quote=meltzerboy;9291601]

Originally Posted by grandfather

Creating an incomplete (instead of imperfect) world is, however, itself the ultimate good because it gives us a mission, a goal to make the world a more fit place to live for all.

"All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags"

Isaiah 64:6

Who can bring what is pure from the impure?
No one!
Job 14:4

[grandfather]

[quote=meltzerboy;9291601]

Originally Posted by grandfather

But doesn't that make the world "incomplete"? Otherwise, why did G-d need the Jews, or anyone else, to bring redemption and restoration to the world? This is consistent with Jewish teaching, which does not believe in original sin and the fall from grace. The challenge to mankind was there from the beginning. Creating an incomplete (instead of imperfect) world is, however, itself the ultimate good because it gives us a mission, a goal to make the world a more fit place to live for all. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this particular point.

The creation was made perfectly. It is being restored to prefection. God dis not and does not need the Jews or anyone else. God is infinite. He lacks nothing. He could restore the world and mankind to perfection in any number of ways. I believe I can show why He chose the way He did, using the Jews, the prophets, and messiah, but it would take a long time to develop the story and it would probably not lead to agreement anyway.

Again if our job is to make the world better we are blowing it. Mankind is getting worse, more depraved, violent, greedy, addicted, etc.

The story of the fall from grace is in your scripture. Saying you do not believe it is your buisness, but I don't see how that is possible, given that it is your story. Of course I think we should be trying to make the world a better place. That is only possible if we know what to do to accomplish it.

Aristotle said man could improve his lot through politics. He was wrong. History demonstrates that a thousand times.

Where does the voice originate that says we should not lie to one another, cheat and steal, and respect one another's property and families? It is religion. Did we figure it out on our own? No, Moses came down from the mountain with the moral code. It was revealed.

Suppose you are right. The purpose we are given life by God and put here is to improve things. I agree by the way, but there is more to it. How do you know this to be so? It is from your religion. Where did that come from? God.

God will restore the world to His perfection and we are supposed to cooperate with Him in His work. We do this by sacrifice.

[grandfather]

Sorry for all the typos. I was trying to cook dinner and type.


[quote=grandfather;9294988]

Originally Posted by meltzerboy

The creation was made perfectly. It is being restored to prefection. God dis not and does not need the Jews or anyone else. God is infinite. He lacks nothing. He could restore the world and mankind to perfection in any number of ways. I believe I can show why He chose the way He did, using the Jews, the prophets, and messiah, but it would take a long time to develop the story and it would probably not lead to agreement anyway.

Again if our job is to make the world better we are blowing it. Mankind is getting worse, more depraved, violent, greedy, addicted, etc.

The story of the fall from grace is in your scripture. Saying you do not believe it is your buisness, but I don't see how that is possible, given that it is your story. Of course I think we should be trying to make the world a better place. That is only possible if we know what to do to accomplish it.

Aristotle said man could improve his lot through politics. He was wrong. History demonstrates that a thousand times.

Where does the voice originate that says we should not lie to one another, cheat and steal, and respect one another's property and families? It is religion. Did we figure it out on our own? No, Moses came down from the mountain with the moral code. It was revealed.

Suppose you are right. The purpose we are given life by God and put here is to improve things. I agree by the way, but there is more to it. How do you know this to be so? It is from your religion. Where did that come from? God.

God will restore the world to His perfection and we are supposed to cooperate with Him in His work. We do this by sacrifice.

[loko]

Originally Posted by z0wb13

so does this mean that i can still go to heaven, even though if i'm an atheist? please be specific, this is a real question.

because i've never thought that believing in jesus as a god was a choice that i could make. it isn't that my heart is hardened; if jesus christ floated down on a cloud to meet me, i would dramatically revise my worldview;p

Catholics believe ONLY God decides who will go to Heaven. There are non-Christian people who live the Commandments and there are so-called Christians who do not live by the Commandments.

It is never too late. The Thief was in Heaven the same day because he recognised Christ on the Cross. Some may say 'he wasn't baptised and lived a life of sin' but who are we to question God's decisions on who he will show mercy too.

[Jim Dandy]

Originally Posted by 1voice

In order to accept the fact that people outside of the Catholic religion can go to heaven one would have to accept the fact that they are true Christians.

Not so.

Catechism of the Catholic Church 846 - Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council [Vatican II] teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptist as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Chirst, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

CCC 847 - Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved, by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience -- those too may schieve eternal salvation. (Bold added)

Non-Catholics and non-Christians may achieve salvation.

Many Catholics believe that Catholicism = the only true Christianity.

Not "many." All true Catholics know that the Catholic Church possesses the entire, true Apostolic faith taught by Jesus and His Apostles. The Catholic Faith was "once-for-all delivered to the saints" (Jude 3). Man-man made Protestant denominations (and they are all man-made) have a portion of the truth with an admixture of falsehoods resulting from misinterpretations of the Scriptures and their own false ideas.

Many Catholics also believe that God leads the only true Church exclusively through the Catholic hierarchy.

True. Christ, who is God, founded the Catholic Church and promised to be with her forever (Mt 28:20 et al.) He is the leader of the Church.

Given those assumptions on the part of many Catholics ... It would be impossible to present a case for the salvation for non Catholics that would be accepted by someone with those preconceptions.

They are not assumptions. They are promises made by Christ. Christianity stands or falls on His Words.

That said...
Protestantism has made an important contribution to the realization of Christian faith, fulfilling a positive function in the development of the Christian message and, above all, often giving rise to a sincere and profound faith in the individual non-Catholic Christian, whose separation from the Catholic affirmation has nothing to do with the pertinacia characteristic of heresy.
...Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, The Meaning of Christian Brotherhood, pp. 87-88

True, the Church does not hold present-day Protestants responsible for the formal heresies of the Reformation. However, Protestantism itself is a heresy and those that hold it are likely material heretics.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is online at many websites. It is a synopsis of all that the Catholic Church teaches. You can find it at www.vatican.va and www.stcharlesborromeo.org.

Peace be with you.

[1voice]

Protestantism has made an important contribution to the realization of Christian faith, fulfilling a positive function in the development of the Christian message and, above all, often giving rise to a sincere and profound faith in the individual non-Catholic Christian, whose separation from the Catholic affirmation has nothing to do with the pertinacia characteristic of heresy.
...Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, The Meaning of Christian Brotherhood, pp. 87-88

Originally Posted by Jim Dandy

True, the Church does not hold present-day Protestants responsible for the formal heresies of the Reformation. However, Protestantism itself is a heresy and those that hold it are likely material heretics.

Peace be with you.

I have posted the above statement in the past in response to similar questions/ discussions.
I have noticed that the first 2/3 of the statement by Cardinal Ratzinger is, as with your response, ignored.

[1voice]

Originally Posted by z0wb13

so does this mean that i can still go to heaven, even though if i'm an atheist? please be specific, this is a real question.

because i've never thought that believing in jesus as a god was a choice that i could make. it isn't that my heart is hardened; if jesus christ floated down on a cloud to meet me, i would dramatically revise my worldview;p

Jesus is real ... and he will show himself to you if you ask.

Take this or leave it ... as you wish.
I and several of my family knew a man, Bill Moore. He was a High School English teacher with a strong NY accent. At the time, early 1970's, Bill and his wife and 2 daughters frequented a Bible study that we all attended in a small town 20 miles west of Pittsburgh PA . Bill passed away a few years ago.
He had an interesting background and an amazing story. Just looking at Bill you could tell that he had led a rough life. He looked far older than his 50 or so years. He told us that he had gone down the wrong road in his youth and had ended up as a hit man for the Mafia in NYC. He never went into a lot of detail but he said that he found a way to get away from that life and start a new identity. He said that all of the people that he was associated with back in those days were either dead or in prison. Bills wife and 2 daughters were Christians but he didnt believe in anything at that time. He was quick to declare that it was his wife's prayers that saved him out of that life and so much more. He was working as a "soldier" one night when suddenly, out of nowhere, he was shot through the chest. The next thing he knew, he woke up in a hospital bed with tubes and wires attached to him.
He took quick inventory of the situation and decided that he didnt want to survive. He hated his life and figured this was his opportunity to end it all. He reached up and pulled all of the tubes out of his chest and then he put his finger in the wound to reopen it... and waited to die. Suddenly he was in a place full of people in terrible misery. He recognized several of them. They were people that he knew who had been killed. They screamed at him to get out before it was too late... They told him ... once you come here there is no way out of the torment. He said that he experienced unbelievable terror. He, for the first time began to realize what his wife had been telling him and praying about. He cried out to Jesus. Immediately an amazing being of pure light appeared in front of him. The light enveloped him and he felt a radiant love and peace. He woke up again ... the night duty nurse was frantically reinserting the tubes and wires. She had been alerted when the vital signs alarm was triggered.