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  #586  
Old May 13, '12, 6:42 pm
jwinch2 jwinch2 is offline
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Default Re: Vatican demands reform of American nuns' leadership group [CWN]

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Originally Posted by opus101 View Post
This statement from the sisters themselves says that the original habits were like the garb worn by the widows of the day.
http://www.csjssm.ca/faqs.html#1
Personally, I think their conclusions are a bit of a stretch.
That would not seem to match up with the link which discusses the habit worn by the Sisters of St. Joseph. Someone should probably point that out to Fr. James.
  #587  
Old May 13, '12, 8:45 pm
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Michael Mayo Michael Mayo is offline
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Default Re: Vatican demands reform of American nuns' leadership group [CWN]

I don't know about the rest of you but I know plenty of faithful religious sisters (as they prefer to be called) most now in their 60's, 70's, 80's and even 90's who persevered through the upheaval 50 years ago to serve, sacrifice and inspire.
  #588  
Old May 13, '12, 8:51 pm
opus101 opus101 is offline
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Default Re: Vatican demands reform of American nuns' leadership group [CWN]

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That would not seem to match up with the link which discusses the habit worn by the Sisters of St. Joseph. Someone should probably point that out to Fr. James.

Unless the type of habit that he described is similar to that of the secular garb of a widow.
I found this, which describes the widow's clothing:

"For nuns such as the Sisters of St. Joseph, founded in the 17th century, they found that by adopting the widow's attire of a black serge cloak and veil hid their femininity and sexuality - which were no longer important to them or society - and gave them greater freedom and independence when out attending the poor and sick in the community."

http://web.prm.ox.ac.uk/bodyarts/ind...les/death.html

It gave them greater freedom because women who were not widowed were not permitted to go out as much.
  #589  
Old May 13, '12, 8:52 pm
jwinch2 jwinch2 is offline
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Default Re: Vatican demands reform of American nuns' leadership group [CWN]

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I don't know about the rest of you but I know plenty of faithful religious sisters (as they prefer to be called) most now in their 60's, 70's, 80's and even 90's who persevered through the upheaval 50 years ago to serve, sacrifice and inspire.
Agreed. I suspect that they are the overwhelming majority. Unfortunately, the dissidents get all the press and for whatever reason, also seem to end up in the leadership roles within LCWR. Sort of like the Jesuits I suppose. However, that is also the reason why the Vatican had to step in and do something.

We have to be careful (I'm really wearing that phrase out in this thread) in focusing too much on the good work that these sisters do. I am not attempting to diminish it, but it is important to note that consecrated religious are supposed to be more than social workers. Serving, sacrificing, and inspiring does not necessarily equal holiness or a devout Christian life.

Peace,

Last edited by jwinch2; May 13, '12 at 9:11 pm.
  #590  
Old May 13, '12, 8:56 pm
opus101 opus101 is offline
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Default Re: Vatican demands reform of American nuns' leadership group [CWN]

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I don't know about the rest of you but I know plenty of faithful religious sisters (as they prefer to be called) most now in their 60's, 70's, 80's and even 90's who persevered through the upheaval 50 years ago to serve, sacrifice and inspire.

I do too. The Vatican document wasn't aimed at the sisters in general. It was aimed at only the leaders of the communities who belong to the LCWR. It wasn't aimed at all of the religious sisters, nor at the ones who belong to the other conference or those who belong to no conference.

Anyway, the fact that there are many good religious sisters is not the issue. Lots of people "serve, sacrifice and inspire". The issue is with really off-base theology and doctrinal problems, plus questionable interpretation of what the Church defines as consecrated life.
  #591  
Old May 13, '12, 9:43 pm
jwinch2 jwinch2 is offline
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Default Re: Vatican demands reform of American nuns' leadership group [CWN]

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Pardon my ignorance, but what is the other conference? Up until this thread, I wasn't aware of the LCWR.
http://www.cmswr.org/

  #592  
Old May 14, '12, 2:10 am
KSU KSU is offline
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Default Re: Vatican demands reform of American nuns' leadership group [CWN]

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I don't know about the rest of you but I know plenty of faithful religious sisters (as they prefer to be called) most now in their 60's, 70's, 80's and even 90's who persevered through the upheaval 50 years ago to serve, sacrifice and inspire.
Michael, after reading all or at least many of the posts in this thread about the nuns who run the LCWR, you said, "They aren't all bad, you know." To back it up, you then provided the link to Fr. Martin's video extolling the virtues of some of them. Now you go on to say you know plenty of faithful religious sister who persevered to serve, sacrifice and inspire.

In an effort to avoid misunderstanding your point, would you please tell me if the nuns extolled by Fr. Martin are examples of those who persevered to serve, sacrifice and inspire?

Thanks, Michael.
  #593  
Old May 14, '12, 6:03 am
Tigg Tigg is offline
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Default Re: Vatican demands reform of American nuns' leadership group [CWN]

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Fr. Martin said that these sisters are "demoralized" because of the reform. Has he ever considered that hundreds of thousands of Catholics have been repeatedly demoralized, scandalized and led astray for 40 years by these very same people?

He defends their fidelity to the Second Vatican Council and documents on religious life that call for updating and reform. But they were to do all of that under the guidance of the Church. How does "updating" equal changing Church doctrine and guidelines?


Excellent points!
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  #594  
Old May 14, '12, 6:34 am
Tigg Tigg is offline
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Default Re: Vatican demands reform of American nuns' leadership group [CWN]

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I don't know about the rest of you but I know plenty of faithful religious sisters (as they prefer to be called) most now in their 60's, 70's, 80's and even 90's who persevered through the upheaval 50 years ago to serve, sacrifice and inspire.
Faithful to what? Faithful to the teachings of Christ and His Church? Faithful to their political party? Faithful in their own pursuit of moral relativism like Sr. Elizabeth Johnson, who was praised in your link by Fr. Martin and who claims to be a theologian, but recently was chastized by the bishops for her latest book in which they question her very theology?

The job of the sisters, which never changed with Vat II is to live and defend the fullness of the faith by their consecrated life and witness. Of primary concern is the defense of innocent and unborn life. A link was posted in which appeared a picture of one of these sisters wearing a sweatshirt that touts, "nuns for choice" What does it say for them to be constantly at odds with Rome, contradicting and challenging the hierarchy at every turn and being antithetical to the most basic of church doctrine?

And I would like to know if their own brand of social justice activism leaves any room for the pursuit of holiness by the practice of heroic virtue - remember obedience and faithfulness and humility?
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  #595  
Old May 14, '12, 12:32 pm
opus101 opus101 is offline
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Default Re: Vatican demands reform of American nuns' leadership group [CWN]

Interesting...found this information on a type of headdress: A "barbe" was a "pleated linen veil and wimple often worn by widows and nuns."

It seems that the nuns' headdress was similar to that of widows, but not necessarily like that of the ordinary secular non-widowed person. It wasn't exactly the "every-day" dress of lay women.
  #596  
Old May 14, '12, 12:39 pm
KSU KSU is offline
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Default Re: Vatican demands reform of American nuns' leadership group [CWN]

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Originally Posted by Tigg View Post
Faithful to what? Faithful to the teachings of Christ and His Church? Faithful to their political party? Faithful in their own pursuit of moral relativism like Sr. Elizabeth Johnson, who was praised in your link by Fr. Martin and who claims to be a theologian, but recently was chastised by the bishops for her latest book in which they question her very theology?

The job of the sisters, which never changed with Vat II is to live and defend the fullness of the faith by their consecrated life and witness. Of primary concern is the defense of innocent and unborn life. A link was posted in which appeared a picture of one of these sisters wearing a sweatshirt that touts, "nuns for choice" What does it say for them to be constantly at odds with Rome, contradicting and challenging the hierarchy at every turn and being antithetical to the most basic of church doctrine?

And I would like to know if their own brand of social justice activism leaves any room for the pursuit of holiness by the practice of heroic virtue - remember obedience and faithfulness and humility?
Tigg, their own brand of social justice activism, as you may know, has been called the heresy of Americanism, and you and Pope Leo XIII think alike:

"Americanism it is not a condemnation of America as such but a condemnation of the false notions as introduced into the faith... many Catholics while claiming to be Catholics are not Catholic but 'Americanists' who deny the influence of Christ and His Church in the social sphere. For this reason Americanism leads to the public denial of Christ the King and ultimately to the destruction of society since there can never be a true peace without Christ, the Prince of Peace." http://www.catholicapologetics.info/...nism/index.htm
  #597  
Old May 14, '12, 1:07 pm
Tigg Tigg is offline
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Default Re: Vatican demands reform of American nuns' leadership group [CWN]

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Tigg, their own brand of social justice activism, as you may know, has been called the heresy of Americanism, and you and Pope Leo XIII think alike:


He's one of my favorites, you know!
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  #598  
Old May 14, '12, 4:33 pm
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LittleSoldier LittleSoldier is offline
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Default Re: Vatican demands reform of American nuns' leadership group [CWN]

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Originally Posted by Tigg View Post
Faithful to what? Faithful to the teachings of Christ and His Church? Faithful to their political party? Faithful in their own pursuit of moral relativism like Sr. Elizabeth Johnson, who was praised in your link by Fr. Martin and who claims to be a theologian, but recently was chastized by the bishops for her latest book in which they question her very theology?

The job of the sisters, which never changed with Vat II is to live and defend the fullness of the faith by their consecrated life and witness. Of primary concern is the defense of innocent and unborn life. A link was posted in which appeared a picture of one of these sisters wearing a sweatshirt that touts, "nuns for choice" What does it say for them to be constantly at odds with Rome, contradicting and challenging the hierarchy at every turn and being antithetical to the most basic of church doctrine?

And I would like to know if their own brand of social justice activism leaves any room for the pursuit of holiness by the practice of heroic virtue - remember obedience and faithfulness and humility?
"Nuns for Choice?"

That sounds amazingly similar to the name of a well-known heretical organization called "Catholics for Choice."

No wonder the general public is so confused.
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  #599  
Old May 14, '12, 9:19 pm
jwinch2 jwinch2 is offline
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Default Re: Vatican demands reform of American nuns' leadership group [CWN]

Very interesting article from 15 years ago vis-a-vie the issues with some women religious. There are some very telling statements in there in my opinion.

http://www.newoxfordreview.org/artic...did=0397-carey

Quote:
Two distinct models of religious life for women have evolved in the U.S. Between 10 and 20 percent of the orders of women fall into the traditional category, and most of these traditional institutes have affiliated with the new Council of Major Superiors of Women Religious. The rest can be described as change-oriented, and most of these orders are affiliated with the Leadership Conference of Women Religious. Both of these models of religious life for women share some common problems, but the future for the traditional orders looks much brighter than the future of the change-oriented orders.

Many traditional institutes are attracting sufficient numbers of new candidates to sustain themselves in future years. A few are even attracting significant numbers of new members and have instituted waiting lists so that they are not overwhelmed with too many new members at one time. Also, a number of new religious institutes have been founded since 1970 with the express purpose of living religious life as it is understood by the Church. As of late 1996, approximately 80 of these new communities belonged to the Fellowship of Emerging Religious Communities (formerly the Fellowship of New Religious Communities). Although many of these new institutes are very small, and their future is tenuous, they are indicative of an ongoing interest by contemporary men and women in living religious life according to Church teachings.

The apparently viable institutes of women have these elements in common: specific corporate identity, common apostolate, community living, common prayer, religious garb, traditional practice of the vows, outspoken fidelity to the Pope and the Magisterium, and religious governance based on the religious superior model. In other words, they practice the elements of religious life repeatedly set forth in documents such as Vatican II's Perfectae Caritatis, the apostolic exhortation Evangelica Testificatio, numerous instructions emanating from the Congregation for Religious, various papal discourses, and again in the 1996 apostolic exhortation on consecrated life, Vita Consecrata. As Fr. Albert DiIanni contends, young people are attracted to religious institutes that have retained their identity as religious institutes and have specific spiritual practices.

But DiIanni, a former vicar general of the Marist Fathers, has noted: "Young people are telling us that something has gone wrong with some forms of religious life. They are doing it by staying away in droves. Part of their message, I believe, is that religious groups may have taken the religious heart out of things...." In contrast to the traditional religious institutes that are attracting new vocations, most of the institutes of women Religious that carried experimentation and renewal to extremes neither intended nor authorized by the Second Vatican Council are in decline. Studies have found that these change-oriented institutes lost a greater percentage of their membership than did the traditional institutes, and they have not attracted significant numbers of new members. In many change-oriented institutes, the lifestyle of the sisters has evolved to a point where it is impossible to distinguish sisters from their lay professional counterparts. In some institutes the only connections some sisters have to their community is the umbrella of a tax exemption for their income and occasional community mailings.
  #600  
Old May 14, '12, 9:42 pm
opus101 opus101 is offline
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Default Re: Vatican demands reform of American nuns' leadership group [CWN]

Wow. Thanks , Jason, for the article. That last sentence was really hard hitting.
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