If you don't want children... - Page 7

Dominique1234 · #91 May 13, '12, 7:38 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calliso

Well posters here have indicated that marriage is mainly about kids. I guess I never was really taught or have been convinced by the arguments that kids are a neccesity for marriage.

Ever heard of, " For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh." Gen 2:24

The Catholic Church's 2000 years of education also has, to most Catholics, some meaning on the matter. The one flesh means children. I'm sure you could have figured that out?

Calliso · #92 May 13, '12, 7:39 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JacarandaPurple

At the risk of you reporting me again, I am gonna be real clear: the absolute refusal to even consider the slightest inconvenience for the sake of another person is selfish. The categorical refusal to ever do anything you don't wanna, is selfish. I think you prefer animals because when you are finished getting what you want from them, you can kennel them. If you do marry, I pity your husband should he demand too much of you. What if he got sick and expected you to give up traveling? You want marriage, but you want to redefine its basic nature to suit your preferences. You also seem to think that your childless marriage would always be fulfilling. Sometimes marriage is so painful, even in a good one....what will you do when it's not fun or fulfilling, and the only thing holding you there is obligation? Sounds to me like you would run.

Sheesh alot of assumptions here

Where in the world do you get the idea that because she doesn;t want kids that she will never consider the slightest inconvenience? Or that she will never do anything she doesn;t want to do? I mean do you seriously think those of us who chose not to have kids never have to make any tough choices and sacrifices? Because I will tell you yes we do have to make choices and we don;t always get our way. Also I donlt see anything to indicate the OP would think marriage would be a cakewalk of forever happiness. Your just way out of line here.

TheRealJuliane · #93 May 13, '12, 7:40 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PumpkinSeed

Well there are NFP methods that are about 95% effective. I like the idea of the beads.

Beads? Haven't heard about that method.

Well, the NFP would not be artificially contracepting, but what happens if/when you get pregnant?

jilly4ski · #94 May 13, '12, 7:42 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calliso

Well posters here have indicated that marriage is mainly about kids. I guess I never was really taught or have been convinced by the arguments that kids are a neccesity for marriage.

Kids are the natural end and one of the purposes of marriage. (Someone earlier posted the CCC quote about fidelity and fecundity). Lets put it this way, if we didn't have kids the way we do, God would not have ordained marriage. There is no reason for marriage (as an institution ordained by God) without children. (Meaning if there were no children there would be no marriage).

Marriage (like our sexuality) has more than one purpose that cannot be separated from the other purposes.

Calliso · #95 May 13, '12, 7:45 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominique1234

Ever heard of, " For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh." Gen 2:24

The Catholic Church's 2000 years of education also has, to most Catholics, some meaning on the matter. The one flesh means children. I'm sure you could have figured that out?

No actually I have never thought of one flesh as refering to children. I mean why would I what about that sentence indicates children? I mean it says become one flesh not multiple hehe. I always thought it refered to basically the bonding of husband and wife or whatever. But I never thought it had anything to do with kids.

mini_me640 · #96 May 13, '12, 7:50 pm

I'm going to venture to say that a good percentage of priests don't "want" to be celibate. However, because they are called to the vocation of priesthood, and that is part of that vocation, they accept celibacy, and God gives them the grace they need to live it out. If you are truly called to the vocation of marriage, then you have to accept the probability (barring infertility) of children and trust that God will give you the grace you need to be a good parent.

Dominique1234 · #97 May 13, '12, 7:55 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calliso

Umm why not what is so terrible about a man that doesn;t want kids? I mean my husband doesn;t want kids *well ok hes kinda nuetral about the subject but I am pretty sure he really doesn;t want them* And he is the most trust worthy respectful good guy I know.

There is nothing wrong with a man that doesn't want kids, if it's not in his religion's teaching that marriage includes kids, like most non-denominational churches do. I used to be one, no worries. I know.

If you are Catholic, you must be open to life, you must embrace children in your marriage. Go back and read my last post I put for you.

Before you come on a Catholic site, please come with Catholic understanding to give good Catholic advice. If you are not Catholic, it is almost futile and truly confuses those who are trying to learn about our wonderful Catholic Faith. It also causes disunity because in non-denominational religions, from my experience and knowledge being in one in the past, I know that we would pick and choose from the Bible, and 'translate' verses to our own belief system, or who ever was the pastor.

For example. One non-d church I attended spoke of the prodigal son story as something to be happy about, not mentioning the torment his brother felt when his father accepted his son back, no questions asked. Another pastor distorted this story to the point of making it truly confusing and almost insulting, and how it's not fair for the other son who remained faithful to his father... which in the end the story is about God's mercy for everyone who comes back to Him.

Anyhow, you get the point.

sw85 · #98 May 13, '12, 7:57 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PumpkinSeed

I disagree. I think being married is about sharing a life with your spouse and being happy. Children are a product of marriage. They however did not make the marriage.

Well, can I ask where you get this idea from? It certainly isn't an historical idea, especially in Christianity. No one has ever in the history of the world until about five minutes ago thought marriage was primarily about happiness. That's not to say no marriages were happy, but "being happy" was never the point. "Being happy" is not the point of doing anything. Happiness is feedback: it's what tells you you're living a good life. Living a good life should be your highest goal. If living a good life doesn't make you happy it's only because the human intellect has been darkened by original sin. It doesn't follow you shouldn't aim primarily to live well. And living well requires you to do your duty. And it has pretty much always and everywhere been understood that the marital duty is childbearing.

Dominique1234 · #99 May 13, '12, 8:00 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calliso

No actually I have never thought of one flesh as refering to children. I mean why would I what about that sentence indicates children? I mean it says become one flesh not multiple hehe. I always thought it refered to basically the bonding of husband and wife or whatever. But I never thought it had anything to do with kids.

I'm glad you now understand 2000 years of Catholic teaching on the matter.

JacarandaPurple · #**100** May 13, '12, 8:03 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calliso

No actually I have never thought of one flesh as refering to children. I mean why would I what about that sentence indicates children? I mean it says become one flesh not multiple hehe. I always thought it refered to basically the bonding of husband and wife or whatever. But I never thought it had anything to do with kids.

HOLY. MACKEREL. This is how successful the campaign to separate sex from procreation has been. It truly NEVER occurred to you? And you learned this in a church that calls itself Christian?! Dear God my head hurts. Thank goodness I am Catholic, cuz I think I need a margarita!

Dominique1234 · #**101** May 13, '12, 8:08 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PumpkinSeed

I take responsibility for all my actions in life. I just don't want to have to deal with a child for the next 18+ years. Not my cup of tea. I like my freedom. However I still follow God at all times.

If you want marriage in the Catholic Church, you must be open to life with children. You cannot be following God at all times and not have children in a marriage if you're Catholic, as you claim to be doing.

Don't get married if you don't want kids and be Catholic. Don't date either. Aren't these the answers you wanted? Or would you rather me say, Yeah, do what ever you want. God won't care. ?

In the end, you have free will. But what I want for you is a pure soul and for you to go to Heaven. If you get married and do not have kids, (infertility not being the case), then you will be living in sin, if you are Catholic.

If you're not Catholic, what are you doing on a Catholic site seeking Catholic answers? Is your conscience eating away at you?

Calliso · #**102** May 13, '12, 8:08 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JacarandaPurple

HOLY. MACKEREL. This is how successful the campaign to separate sex from procreation has been. It truly NEVER occurred to you? And you learned this in a church that calls itself Christian?! Dear God my head hurts. Thank goodness I am Catholic, cuz I think I need a margarita!

Actually truth be told not sure where I learned this. The whole one flesh thing I donlt ever remember being discussed in any of the churches I have been to *babtist as a kid and Luthern in my teen years* I currently donlt go to church and did not receieve any premarital counseling *maybe it would have been brought up in there* But no when someone says become ONE flesh I do not think about creating MULTIPLE beings. Really I think if you showed the average person that verse without carefully explaining the full meaning and perhaps supporting yourself with other verses they would not think it had anyting to do with having kids either.

Calliso · #**103** May 13, '12, 8:09 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominique1234

I'm glad you now understand 2000 years of Catholic teaching on the matter.

Well not sure if I really understand it but assuming the church is right I guess I know what that verse means now.

Calliso · #**104** May 13, '12, 8:13 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominique1234

There is nothing wrong with a man that doesn't want kids, if it's not in his religion's teaching that marriage includes kids, like most non-denominational churches do. I used to be one, no worries. I know.

If you are Catholic, you must be open to life, you must embrace children in your marriage. Go back and read my last post I put for you.

Before you come on a Catholic site, please come with Catholic understanding to give good Catholic advice. If you are not Catholic, it is almost futile and truly confuses those who are trying to learn about our wonderful Catholic Faith. It also causes disunity because in non-denominational religions, from my experience and knowledge being in one in the past, I know that we would pick and choose from the Bible, and 'translate' verses to our own belief system, or who ever was the pastor.

For example. One non-d church I attended spoke of the prodigal son story as something to be happy about, not mentioning the torment his brother felt when his father accepted his son back, no questions asked. Another pastor distorted this story to the point of making it truly confusing and almost insulting, and how it's not fair for the other son who remained faithful to his father... which in the end the story is about God's mercy for everyone who comes back to Him.

Anyhow, you get the point.

Well I never really gave the OP any real advice. I just symphasized with her and told her I donlt know what she should do. The closest thing I have said to going against Catholic teachings is basically saying I donlt believe in the whole marriage is about kids thing. But I never told the OP she should follow in my path or just get married and contracept or whatever. But I also understand situations like these are not so black and white as some posters can make them seem and she is going to have a tough choice in front of her. And no matter what she does somebody gets hurt.

TheRealJuliane · #**105** May 13, '12, 8:20 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calliso

Well I never really gave the OP any real advice. I just symphasized with her and told her I donlt know what she should do. The closest thing I have said to going against Catholic teachings is basically saying I donlt believe in the whole marriage is about kids thing. But I never told the OP she should follow in my path or just get married and contracept or whatever. But I also understand situations like these are not so black and white as some posters can make them seem and she is going to have a tough choice in front of her. And no matter what she does somebody gets hurt.

Just having you adding your "yeah, that's right" to the OP, is undermining our teaching to her about our faith. (She is Catholic or says she is.)* see below * So if she is following our faith, she cannot go into a marriage with the intent not to have children.

In fact, there are at least 3 separate threads on CAF right now, from women who either don't want kids at all, don't want any more kids, or don't want to be a mom now that they have a child. This is very troubling and on each thread, there are posters from other religions who are agreeing with the contraceptive viewpoint.

* Edited: I went back and looked, and PumpkinSeed calls herself a "follower of Christ." So I am not sure if she really is a Catholic or what. If not, I wonder what she's doing asking such a question of Catholics?? Of course she is going to hear that we must go into a marriage expecting and welcoming children!

Sigh....