What is the Substance of God?

joshrp · #1 May 15, '12, 2:45 am

Hi,

My question can be kind of phrased badly like this: What is God "made" of? When I say connotation, I don't mean created. I just mean, what is His substance. What is a spiritual substance, as opposed to a material substance? And does God have a form, or an order or organization? So I guess my question can be phrased in these ways: What is the substance, and the form or composition of God? What is the relationship between what constitutes the substance of God, and how His substance is organized, if His substance is organized.

Does this make any sense? In the Nicene Creed we, now say, consubstantial with the Father. What is substance in itself, and what is a spiritual substance?

Thank you for any help or correction you can provide.
Joshua

cessnawag · #2 May 15, '12, 3:54 am

This question makes my brain hurt

. I've also thought of things like this and all I know I that god is love. So when you feel love god is more present. So maybe the feeling when you hug a loved one is the substance of god?

Theophorus · #3 May 15, '12, 4:14 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by joshrp

Hi,

My question can be kind of phrased badly like this: What is God "made" of? When I say connotation, I don't mean created. I just mean, what is His substance. What is a spiritual substance, as opposed to a material substance? And does God have a form, or an order or organization? So I guess my question can be phrased in these ways: What is the substance, and the form or composition of God? What is the relationship between what constitutes the substance of God, and how His substance is organized, if His substance is organized.

Does this make any sense? In the Nicene Creed we, now say, consubstantial with the Father. What is substance in itself, and what is a spiritual substance?

Thank you for any help or correction you can provide.
Joshua

God as an immaterial being isn't exactly "made" of anything but I know what you mean.
God is in his essence absolutely simple that is to say there is no distinction between His being and His essence. While we as finite human beings have a material dimension fixed in time and space God has no such constraints. He simple "is". There is no distinction between His being and His substance and because of that we can't really speak of His substance being organised in a particular way.

bscastro · #4 May 15, '12, 4:58 am

This is one of those things that is very difficult for our human brains to grasp I think. In my own little mind, I think of God as being beyond and not bound by our concept of matter, if that makes sense.

Steady Eddy · #5 May 15, '12, 5:31 am

Hello there,

I came across a similar thread to this before where the following question (pasted below) was asked.

God's own purpose
________________________________________
What is God's purpose? Not his purpose for us, but his own reason for being. When God asks himself "Why am I here?" what is his answer?

And here are some short replies from me

1 To fill the earth with His glory

2 In one sense God creates His own purpose, not that He needs one.

Finally I asked him the following question

What’s your purpose in asking this very interesting question, and do you have an answer yourself? And of course he didn’t, and neither do you. Because there is no answer to these types of questions except to say God is Himself the Creator of all substance, form, order, organization etc. As in the words of a favourite song of mine from years back

“There are more questions than answers
Pictures in my mind that will not show.
There are more questions than answers,
and the more I find out the less I know”

Or in the words of the great St Paul

Now we see only reflections in a mirror, mere riddles, but then we shall be seeing face to face. Now I can know only imperfectly; but then I shall know just as fully as I am myself known. 1Cor 13:12

2 Cor 13:13
Eddy Barry

ephesians2 · #6 May 15, '12, 6:17 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by joshrp

Hi,

My question can be kind of phrased badly like this: What is God "made" of? When I say connotation, I don't mean created. I just mean, what is His substance. What is a spiritual substance, as opposed to a material substance? And does God have a form, or an order or organization?
Joshua

You can read what God says about the subject...

John 4:24 says, "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth." Other important verses from important passages are: Colossians 1:15, 1 Timothy 1:17, Hebrews 11:27, John 1:18 and John 3:6.

I think another thing to remember is we do not have the capacity as created beings to understand the full complexity of our God. We can understand as much as He has revealed to us. I believe it's one of those subjects that qualify as a secret thing that belongs to the LORD (Deuteronomy 29:29).

God bless!

Justice_Mercy · #7 May 15, '12, 7:27 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ephesians2

You can read what God says about the subject...

John 4:24 says, "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth." Other important verses from important passages are: Colossians 1:15, 1 Timothy 1:17, Hebrews 11:27, John 1:18 and John 3:6.

I think another thing to remember is we do not have the capacity as created beings to understand the full complexity of our God. We can understand as much as He has revealed to us. I believe it's one of those subjects that qualify as a secret thing that belongs to the LORD (Deuteronomy 29:29).

God bless!

I was thinking of some of those scriptures myself... great reply!

The doctrine of Divine Simplicity is what you are describing:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/divine-simplicity/

JDaniel · #8 May 15, '12, 8:10 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by joshrp

Hi,

My question can be kind of phrased badly like this: What is God "made" of? When I say connotation, I don't mean created. I just mean, what is His substance. What is a spiritual substance, as opposed to a material substance? And does God have a form, or an order or organization? So I guess my question can be phrased in these ways: What is the substance, and the form or composition of God? What is the relationship between what constitutes the substance of God, and how His substance is organized, if His substance is organized.

Does this make any sense? In the Nicene Creed we, now say, consubstantial with the Father. What is substance in itself, and what is a spiritual substance?

Thank you for any help or correction you can provide.
Joshua

Joshrp:

Space. But not the "space" we're all familiar with. The space I am suggesting is that space which surrounds the particles of the quantum foam; that same space which surrounds the nucleus of atoms, and within which electrons circle freely. Some call it "Infinite Nothingness" and the "Mind of God" which is NOT to be taken as derogatory in any way. If God is to be understood as that which is in continual co-terminance with all of His creatures, what more could it be?

Electrons, protons and neutrons are "point particles" that have some sort of minute mass but no dimensionality. Yet, when structured into molecules and greater substances, those structured things have 'mass,' as we see and feel it, and 'weight,' as we oppose it. If the particles themselves are negative mass and dimensionless, what then, supplies "mass?" Remember also, all of the Church Fathers concur that God is continually co-terminus with everything and thereby "originates/moves/changes" everything. (Or, at least, makes us think that things are originating/moving/changing.)

Thinking of God as Infinite Space, or as His Infinite Mind, is not necessarily satisfying as an answer. And, it shouldn't be: it's only a theory, and a complex one at that. But, whenever you read any of the Church Fathers, or any of the readings at Mass on Sundays, keep your eyes open for descriptions that tend to refer back to this theory.

God bless,
jd

perro sarnoso · #9 May 15, '12, 4:29 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by joshrp

Hi,

My question can be kind of phrased badly like this: What is God "made" of? When I say connotation, I don't mean created. I just mean, what is His substance. What is a spiritual substance, as opposed to a material substance? And does God have a form, or an order or organization? So I guess my question can be phrased in these ways: What is the substance, and the form or composition of God? What is the relationship between what constitutes the substance of God, and how His substance is organized, if His substance is organized.

Does this make any sense? In the Nicene Creed we, now say, consubstantial with the Father. What is substance in itself, and what is a spiritual substance?

Thank you for any help or correction you can provide.
Joshua

Sorry, I won't comment.

There are plenty of good answers on this thread already.

Sam_777 · #10 May 16, '12, 3:50 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ephesians2

You can read what God says about the subject...

John 4:24 says, "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth." Other important verses from important passages are: Colossians 1:15, 1 Timothy 1:17, Hebrews 11:27, John 1:18 and John 3:6.

I think another thing to remember is we do not have the capacity as created beings to understand the full complexity of our God. We can understand as much as He has revealed to us. I believe it's one of those subjects that qualify as a secret thing that belongs to the LORD (Deuteronomy 29:29).

God bless!

greylorn · #11 May 16, '12, 6:06 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by joshrp

Hi,

My question can be kind of phrased badly like this: What is God "made" of? When I say connotation, I don't mean created. I just mean, what is His substance. What is a spiritual substance, as opposed to a material substance? And does God have a form, or an order or organization? So I guess my question can be phrased in these ways: What is the substance, and the form or composition of God? What is the relationship between what constitutes the substance of God, and how His substance is organized, if His substance is organized.

Does this make any sense? In the Nicene Creed we, now say, consubstantial with the Father. What is substance in itself, and what is a spiritual substance?

Thank you for any help or correction you can provide.
Joshua

Because a religionist can simply declare that God is made of spirit-stuff which is and will forever remain a mystery, your question is only interesting if you are willing to consider an unusual answer based upon physics.

I've had poor luck with such conversations because most CAF posters seem to genuinely believe that scripture and dogma trump physics, nevermind that the laws of physics and the total evidence available from the universe are the only certain works of God to which man has access.

If you'd be willing to adopt that fundamental approach and then to do some basic physics studies (I'll direct you, if you wish), I can then answer your question. This would definitely be a project for both of us. Sorry about that, but you asked a question which cannot be answered without background.

inocente · #12 May 17, '12, 3:15 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by joshrp

Does this make any sense? In the Nicene Creed we, now say, consubstantial with the Father. What is substance in itself, and what is a spiritual substance?

The word consubstantial is misleading, since it need have nothing to do with substance - it means of the same being (or same nature or essence).

God isn't made of a substance, and any purported physical explanation is way off base. If you think about it, any god made of a substance would have to be prefigured by that substance, and so could not possibly be God as understood by Christians.

awatkins69 · #13 May 17, '12, 4:15 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theophorus

God as an immaterial being isn't exactly "made" of anything but I know what you mean.
God is in his essence absolutely simple that is to say there is no distinction between His being and His essence. While we as finite human beings have a material dimension fixed in time and space God has no such constraints. He simple "is". There is no distinction between His being and His substance and because of that we can't really speak of His substance being organised in a particular way.

Very well said!

Theophorus · #14 May 17, '12, 6:46 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by inocente

The word consubstantial is misleading, since it need have nothing to do with substance - it means of the same being (or same nature or essence).

God isn't made of a substance, and any purported physical explanation is way off base. If you think about it, any god made of a substance would have to be prefigured by that substance, and so could not possibly be God as understood by Christians.

To reduce the notion of substance to physical substance Is a misunderstanding of the terminology of philosophy. Substance in philosophical use does not simply mean matter, rather something with substantial being is something that is self-existing. That is a substance is something which exists in and of itself.

On the catholic view the primary substantial Being is God. This does not mean that God exists as a material being but as a Being in Himself(given the absolute perfect simplicity of God we say rather that He is Being in its most absolute, which ties rather nicely with Ex 3:14).

Now to come closer to our own level human beings are substantial being but so are the immaterial angels who are spiritual substances.

It in this way we can translate homooúsios(of the same being) as consubstantal (Latin: consubstantialis)without any implication of a material deity but rather that the Father and the Son both have the one divine substantial Being (Greek Ousia or Latin Substantia while they are differentiated in their person (Greek Hypostais or Latin Persona). The Blessed Trinity is therefore three Hypostases in one Ousia or equally we can say one Substantia and three Personae without any linguistical problem but this is slightly off topic.