Salvation for Non-Catholics

[Nicea325]

Originally Posted by 1voice

I didnt think, for a second, that you wouldnt defend your own creation...

So you did not say the following?

The next time you fast... focus your mind on the name of Jesus Christ and ask him to reveal himself. Speak these words: If you are real... and you are the one true God... show me in a way that I cannot deny. Prove that you are not a myth or just one among many ideas in the the world...

Not trying to pick a fight, I just wondering if those are your words?

[1voice]

Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian

If you feel I am missing something in what you are saying and misunderstanding it then please clarify how I am supposed to see what you have written.

The Bible (God's sure word) states simply/ clearly... Seek and you will find. Knock and the door will be opened.. Jesus himself further clearly states in John 10:9: "I AM the door."

Jesus said... If anyone wants to begin a relationship with me and my Father ... this is how you do it... You ask.

James clarifies:
If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. 6But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord; 8he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does.
James 1:5-8

The Bible clearly states that faith is the prerequisite for pleasing God ( "without faith it is impossible to please God" Hebrews 11:6) ... and faith requires tenacity.


And I encouraged (in my post) tenacity ... because James further clarifies:
the testing of your faith develops perseverance. 4Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.

This is God's clear statement and open invitation ...
"come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need... Hebrews 4:16

There is absolutely nothing in what I wrote in this thread that even begins to imply demanding anything.

And confident expectation (which I encouraged) ... is based on Gods clear promise and his clear statement that we cannot expect anything from God without confident expectation that he will do what he said he will do.

[1voice]

Originally Posted by Nicea325

So you did not say the following?



Not trying to pick a fight, I just wondering if those are your words?

LOL!
So ...One paradigm fits all?
________________________
This is my response... 137

[rinnie]

Originally Posted by 1voice

The Bible (God's sure word) states simply/ clearly... Seek and you will find. Knock and the door will be opened.. Jesus himself further clearly states in John 10:9: "I AM the door."

Jesus said... If anyone wants to begin a relationship with me and my Father ... this is how you do it... You ask.

James clarifies:
If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. 6But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord; 8he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does.
James 1:5-8

The Bible clearly states that faith is the prerequisite for pleasing God ( "without faith it is impossible to please God" Hebrews 11:6) ... and faith requires tenacity.


And I encouraged (in my post) tenacity ... because James further clarifies:
the testing of your faith develops perseverance. 4Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.

This is God's clear statement and open invitation ...
"come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need... Hebrews 4:16

There is absolutely nothing in what I wrote in this thread that even begins to imply demanding anything.

And confident expectation (which I encouraged) ... is based on Gods clear promise and his clear statement that we cannot expect anything from God without confident expectation that he will do what he said he will do.

All of this scripture is for People who have faith and trust in God. You just stated yourself in the scripture he must believe and not doubt.

Now how can you say that, and then tell the person who does not believe to tell God to show himself to them?

[1voice]

Originally Posted by rinnie

All of this scripture is for People who have faith and trust in God. You just stated yourself in the scripture he must believe and not doubt.

Now how can you say that, and then tell the person who does not believe to tell God to show himself to them?

I am noticing that every time I quote the word of God ... you folks work hard to create a context where (in your minds) it cant possibly work.

"Faith comes by hearing ... the word of God"
Romans 10:17

It is not God's will that any should perish...
God ... is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9
I know, I know ... not everyone is saved ... But it is not God's will ... people have their own will ...and some use it to choose their own eternal destruction.

I know of one documented case of a medical doctor that had a patient who had a heart attack in his office while on a treadmill testing his heart. The doctor was an agnostic/ atheist at the time. The patient began to cry out in agony for help. He screamed that was being enveloped in flames ... that the doctor could not see... Confused, at first the doctor performed medical procedures to revive the heart but the man continued to scream in agony. The man pleaded... pray for me ... Pray!!! ...The doctor cobbled together some semblance of a prayer to save this man ... simply to placate the man ... to a God that he didnt even believe in himself. The man recovered.
The doctor said that 2 people were saved from hell that day ... the man with the heart attack ... and himself.

"If you obey my words ... you will know the truth ... and the truth will set you free."
... Jesus.

"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
John 3:17
And ...
A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out
Matt 12:20

[1voice]

Originally Posted by rinnie

All of this scripture is for People who have faith and trust in God. You just stated yourself in the scripture he must believe and not doubt.

Now how can you say that, and then tell the person who does not believe to tell God to show himself to them?

I am noticing that every time I quote the word of God ... you folks work hard to create a context where (in your minds) it cant possibly work.

"Faith comes by hearing ... the word of God"
Romans 10:17
I know from lots of personal experience tat you get exactly what you believe... And the opposite is true as well. Why do you think that Jesus said ... "Only believe" ... and "Fear not" ... it is because doubt and fear ... are faith killers.

When a person asks about God ... it is not a coincidence. God puts the curiosity there.
"No one can come to the God unless God draws that person. But ...
It is not God's will that any should perish...
God ... is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9
I know, I know ... not everyone is saved ... But it is not God's will ... people have their own will ...and some use it to choose their own eternal destruction.

... But praying for a person, according to God's will, breaks the pattern of destruction ...

I know of one documented case of a medical doctor that had a patient who had a heart attack in his office while on a treadmill testing his heart. The doctor was an agnostic/ atheist at the time. The patient began to cry out in agony for help. He screamed that was being enveloped in flames ... that the doctor could not see... Confused, at first the doctor performed medical procedures to revive the heart but the man continued to scream in agony. The man pleaded... pray for me ... Pray!!! ...The doctor cobbled together some semblance of a prayer to save this man ... simply to placate the man ... to a God that he didnt even believe in himself. The man recovered.
The doctor said that 2 people were saved from hell that day ... the man with the heart attack ... and himself.

"If you obey my words ... you will know the truth ... and the truth will set you free."
... Jesus.

"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
John 3:17
And ...
A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out
Matt 12:20

[1voice]

Originally Posted by rinnie

All of this scripture is for People who have faith and trust in God. You just stated yourself in the scripture he must believe and not doubt.

Now how can you say that, and then tell the person who does not believe to tell God to show himself to them?

What? You want him to just give up?

I am noticing that every time I quote the word of God ... you folks work hard to create a context where (in your minds) it cant possibly work.

"Faith comes by hearing ... the word of God"
Romans 10:17
I know from lots of personal experience tat you get exactly what you believe... And the opposite is true as well. Why do you think that Jesus said ... "Only believe" ... and "Fear not" ... it is because doubt and fear ... are faith killers.

When a person asks about God ... it is not a coincidence. God puts the curiosity there.
"No one can come to the God unless God draws that person. But ...
It is not God's will that any should perish...
God ... is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9
I know, I know ... not everyone is saved ... But it is not God's will ... people have their own will ...and some use it to choose their own eternal destruction.

... But praying for a person, according to God's will, breaks the pattern of destruction ...

I know of one documented case of a medical doctor that had a patient who had a heart attack in his office while on a treadmill testing his heart. The doctor was an agnostic/ atheist at the time. The patient began to cry out in agony for help. He screamed that was being enveloped in flames ... that the doctor could not see... Confused, at first the doctor performed medical procedures to revive the heart but the man continued to scream in agony. The man pleaded... pray for me ... Pray!!! ...The doctor cobbled together some semblance of a prayer to save this man ... simply to placate the man ... to a God that he didnt even believe in himself. The man recovered.
The doctor said that 2 people were saved from hell that day ... the man with the heart attack ... and himself.

"If you obey my words ... you will know the truth ... and the truth will set you free."
... Jesus.

"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
John 3:17
And ...
A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out
Matt 12:20

[vera dicere]

Originally Posted by rinnie

Now while I agree you have alot of time to make that final decision, what makes you think if you rejected him here, you would not reject him in the next world?

Just wondering.

Sad thing isn't it, that we actually don't really know how much time we have. The poster you addressed this too could go off to teh shower, slip on the soap and break their neck, and then at this very instance find themselves standing before God.

As for the OP, God offers the sure fire way into Heaven, through Jesus Christ and His Holy Catholic Church.

Does that mean every other Christian is damned? Of course not, either through ignorance, or lack of exposure or just beleiving the lies of well meaning individuals the Protestant thinks they are right, they are following their conscience, and at the heart of that is a true love for Jesus and acceptance of him as their Lord.

We can contemplate on whether heathens and atheists and the Aztecs are getting into Heaven, but then it all boils down to what they know, how they know it, and if they have had some reason or experience that gives them a hint of God's existance, and they still refuse to believe it.

To be honest, I think a lot of atheists today really don't know squat. They think they're rejecting God, but they don't even know God! How can they truly reject something if they don't know something? It'd be like saying "I hate feijoas" and never even having seen a Feijoa! Whether Peer pressure and the desire to look "cool" and "enlightened" are damnable attributes I don't know.

But who knows, maybe when Hichens faced God he screeched "YOU'RE WHAT GOD IS!!!!????? I would never have rejected you if I had known that!!"

While we're on Earth I think we need to have hope for all souls, that God has provided them a means of salvation unware to the rest of us, but the best, most guareented way to get through the Pearly Gates is to accept Christ and join his Holy Catholic Church.

[rinnie]

Originally Posted by vera dicere

Sad thing isn't it, that we actually don't really know how much time we have. The poster you addressed this too could go off to teh shower, slip on the soap and break their neck, and then at this very instance find themselves standing before God.

As for the OP, God offers the sure fire way into Heaven, through Jesus Christ and His Holy Catholic Church.

Does that mean every other Christian is damned? Of course not, either through ignorance, or lack of exposure or just beleiving the lies of well meaning individuals the Protestant thinks they are right, they are following their conscience, and at the heart of that is a true love for Jesus and acceptance of him as their Lord.

We can contemplate on whether heathens and atheists and the Aztecs are getting into Heaven, but then it all boils down to what they know, how they know it, and if they have had some reason or experience that gives them a hint of God's existance, and they still refuse to believe it.

To be honest, I think a lot of atheists today really don't know squat. They think they're rejecting God, but they don't even know God! How can they truly reject something if they don't know something? It'd be like saying "I hate feijoas" and never even having seen a Feijoa! Whether Peer pressure and the desire to look "cool" and "enlightened" are damnable attributes I don't know.

But who knows, maybe when Hichens faced God he screeched "YOU'RE WHAT GOD IS!!!!????? I would never have rejected you if I had known that!!"

While we're on Earth I think we need to have hope for all souls, that God has provided them a means of salvation unware to the rest of us, but the best, most guareented way to get through the Pearly Gates is to accept Christ and join his Holy Catholic Church.

It really is sad and scarey at the same time. I agree with you, we must pray for all souls living and deceased.

I have tired to explain how we cannot put demands on God. There are many who in their hearts refuse to accept God, and God knows a heart.

If you want God he left his word and his Church for all who want him. All are welcome and will find a way to find him if they want him. He will help them in thier search, in whatever door he opens for them when they are ready and if they are ready to accept him.

I highly disagree not with the scripture of 1voice, but as usual her way of interpretating it.

God can do anything if he wills it. We cannot. If it is not the will of God nothing happens.

You must be sincere if you want GOd and he knows who and who are not. You can do anything to try to make God prove to you he is here. But if you truly do not want him he knows.

You never test God period. That is why I highly disagree with what 1voice is saying. We cannot promise anyone anything about what God will or will not do.

The only promise we can make is he loves everyone and wills no one to hell. But although God can do everything he will not. He gave us free will also to either reject or accept him.

If you want him and you pray and ask him to enter your heart, and you are sincere he will find a way. But if you truly do not want his love, but want to just test him to have him prove he is real, it will not happen.

It is in the scripture, the devil even tried to test him to have him prove himself, as I showed the devil had said if you are God turn the bread to rock. God did not do that. Why? Because he could not? Of course not. Because God knew the devil asked for the wrong reason.

If you ask God and you have the right heart and right reason, he will help you when and how he sees fit. Not how we see fit. God will not prove himself to us. But if we truly are one of his, he will fill our heart with the Holy Spirit, and we will prove OURSELF to him.

Thats how it works. When you truly Love God and want him, you feel him, you need no proof. BUt you feel the need to prove yourself to him. Thats faith. Not putting demands on the One true God.

You can indeed ask for your pain to leave, or someone to live etc. But if you have real faith you don't even ask. You say God help me, and I trust you to do what is right, and know and trust you, and help me to have my will and your will the same. When that happens we know the correct thing and the right thing will happen.

God gives us many crosses to carry. Sometimes we must continue to carry them for sometime. But carry a cross, and knowing God is helping you carry it, makes you become a different and better person. Then to put your will above God and ask him to take it away. It takes alot of faith to understand this.

[rinnie]

Originally Posted by 1voice

What? You want him to just give up?

I am noticing that every time I quote the word of God ... you folks work hard to create a context where (in your minds) it cant possibly work.

"Faith comes by hearing ... the word of God"
Romans 10:17
I know from lots of personal experience tat you get exactly what you believe... And the opposite is true as well. Why do you think that Jesus said ... "Only believe" ... and "Fear not" ... it is because doubt and fear ... are faith killers.

When a person asks about God ... it is not a coincidence. God puts the curiosity there.
"No one can come to the God unless God draws that person. But ...
It is not God's will that any should perish...
God ... is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9
I know, I know ... not everyone is saved ... But it is not God's will ... people have their own will ...and some use it to choose their own eternal destruction.

... But praying for a person, according to God's will, breaks the pattern of destruction ...

I know of one documented case of a medical doctor that had a patient who had a heart attack in his office while on a treadmill testing his heart. The doctor was an agnostic/ atheist at the time. The patient began to cry out in agony for help. He screamed that was being enveloped in flames ... that the doctor could not see... Confused, at first the doctor performed medical procedures to revive the heart but the man continued to scream in agony. The man pleaded... pray for me ... Pray!!! ...The doctor cobbled together some semblance of a prayer to save this man ... simply to placate the man ... to a God that he didnt even believe in himself. The man recovered.
The doctor said that 2 people were saved from hell that day ... the man with the heart attack ... and himself.

"If you obey my words ... you will know the truth ... and the truth will set you free."
... Jesus.

"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
John 3:17
And ...
A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out
Matt 12:20

You know 1voice I truly accept much of what you are saying. But think what you just said.

Look at the Dr, God found a way to his heart because God knew that his heart was ready to accept God.

I am not disagreeing with how you say to pray and ask God to accept you, and I don't even disagree it can happen.

Why we are trying to tell you is, a person has to truly be ready to accept God, and you can't say do this or that because it worked for me. That is where we disagree with you.

A person could do exactly what you said, and truly in their heart are not ready or truly wanting God, God knows a heart. This is where I disagree with you.

You cannot say Prove yourself to me. Or show me a sign, something. It does not always happen that way.

Look at the DR you discribed. When it is time for God to enter and if you are indeed one of Gods it will and can happen and will happen, I do not reject that.

But you can't say to fast, pray, etc. The devil could do everything you are saying.

Look at the Samaritans and the women at the well. Many believed just on her words. Then many more came to believe by the strength of the words he spoke.

On the other hand many saw miracles, but many still walked away. Many called him a devil.

Please think what we are saying. Many will ask God for signs but not receive them, then will say he did not give me a sign, he is not real.

Yes, tell people to pray and ask and if they are sincere God will find a way to their heart. But we cannot or do not know how he will do this.

That is where we are in direct disagreement with you. Please don't promise anything from God. We cannot do this,

All we can promise is that his word is true, and if someone wants him bad enough, he will provide the path.

[1voice]

Originally Posted by rinnie

But you can't say to fast, pray, etc. The devil could do everything you are saying.

So...you advise me or anyone else not to follow the path described in God's own words to "humble myself"(James 4:10) ... and pray and seek God ... and then really expect God to respond and keep his promise (seek and you will find) ... because I might stir up the devil by accident?

[Nicea325]

Originally Posted by 1voice

LOL!
So ...One paradigm fits all?
________________________
This is my response... 137

Got it!

[1voice]

Originally Posted by rinnie

Please don't promise anything from God. We cannot do this,

All we can promise is that his word is true, and if someone wants him bad enough, he will provide the path.

I only repeated God's own solid promise ... and affirmed/ testified of my own personal experience as well as other's ... I am standing firm in the truth that God stated ( we overcome the enemy by the blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony - Rev 12:11) ...
Speaking the truth of God's word and testifying to that truth by describing real experience of God's word in action ... builds faith. (Faith comes through hearing - Romans 10:17)
Faith must be present (according to God's own words ... Without faith it is impossible to please God - Hebrws 11:6)

It is not my job to judge hearts. It is my job to speak the truth.

I have, personally, seen God perform miracles many, many times. The first thing that must be present, in every case, is faith. Talking to someone about what I have seen God do in the past (as I did above) captures their attention and builds hope that it might just happen to them. That creates the atmosphere for a seed of faith to be planted (Jesus said a seed of faith the size of a mustard seed can move a mountain)

I prayed for a skate boarder about 10 days ago that could not bend his knee. He got off the bus. We sat there at the bus stop and we started a conversation ... I told him that I had seen people get healed lots of times if they ask Jesus to heal them. He was in a lot of pain and very willing to give Jesus a chance. I prayed in Jesus name ... The kid stood up and turned around completely amazed ... his knee worked perfectly and no pain. I said, hey, You can hit the skate park this afternoon.
The point is this ... a few words in the right direction opens the heart. The person can reject and refuse... of course ... but that does not in any way negate the solid truth that God will always respond to an open heart.

[Jim Dandy]

Originally Posted by 1voice

It is not my job to judge hearts. It is my job to speak the truth.

I have, personally, seen God perform miracles many, many times. The first thing that must be present, in every case, is faith. Talking to someone about what I have seen God do in the past (as I did above) captures their attention and builds hope that it might just happen to them. That creates the atmosphere for a seed of faith to be planted (Jesus said a seed of faith the size of a mustard seed can move a mountain)

I prayed for a skate boarder about 10 days ago that could not bend his knee. He got off the bus. We sat there at the bus stop and we started a conversation ... I told him that I had seen people get healed lots of times if they ask Jesus to heal them. He was in a lot of pain and very willing to give Jesus a chance. I prayed in Jesus name ... The kid stood up and turned around completely amazed ... his knee worked perfectly and no pain. I said, hey, You can hit the skate park this afternoon.
The point is this ... a few words in the right direction opens the heart. The person can reject and refuse... of course ... but that does not in any way negate the solid truth that God will always respond to an open heart.

I'll believe it when at least one qualified medical doctor examines the 'before' and 'after' x-rays and pronounces that a miraculous healing took place.

[1voice]

Originally Posted by Jim Dandy

I'll believe it when at least one qualified medical doctor examines the 'before' and 'after' x-rays and pronounces that a miraculous healing took place.

Doctors? ... Doctors didnt believe in washing their hands after handling dead diseased bodies ... and then delivering babies in the next room ...until a little over a hundred years ago... and when it was proven to them they still resisted the simple act for another 30 or 40 years ... the one single act that saved more lives during that time than any other.
... and the (overwhelmingly) biggest violators of the hand washing rule in hospitals... right now / today ... are medical doctors. It has been found that the only way to get them to comply is by humiliating them by posting their name on the non compliance list.

... Theres no rule here that says you are required to believe anything anyone says.
I have gotten your response, with strong force attached ... from close family members on a regular basis for many years... But guess who they call when they test positive for cancer... and guess who they call when the doctor cant find a trace during the operation.
I could go on for quite a while telling of dramatic healing that I have experienced in my own body of things for which doctors could do nothing.

I clearly understand your position ... But I also clearly understand mine. After years of experience... there is no contest ... doesnt matter what anyone says.

I have heard and can attest to the fact ... You can believe ... or disbelieve ... either way you are right.

Jesus, before he healed, said ... Fear not / only believe ... he said it for a specific reason ... he discerned it in the person wanting help ... fact is ... doubt and fear quench faith in less than a heart beat. One cannot exist in the presence of the other.

I have felt intense power of God to heal ... yet (more than once) the person walked away unhealed ... simply because they did not believe.